I have run into a dead-end with GM.

After talking with a VERY helpful person at the Heritage Center, I ultimately was directed back to Customer Assistance. She DID tell me, though that the GM system does not go back further than the 90's.

I was not able (after multiple tries) to talk with the Manager again.

From GM's perspective, it's simple: because the VIN is not in the system, they are "unable to verify that there is a recall that applies to this vehicle".

So, even though I provided them a link to documentation that shows the recall applies to my VIN and the recall never expires, it all comes down to whether, or not, it's in the system.

Someone in GM is responsible for the system that tracks recalls, but I have not been able to talk with them.

So, I'm on my own. I don't seem to have any recourse.

The only thing I can do is file a complaint with the NHTSA, but I think that just gets logged in their system. Sigh :-(

In the middle of a trip, the other day, my 87 died as I came up to a stop sign. I had to give it some throttle pedal to get it started. The rest of the way home, it died every time I took my foot off the pedal.

I learned to keep a little pedal into it all the time to keep it from dying.

The next day, after driving for about 10 minutes, then stopping for an errand. It started up and idled fine and has been running fine ever since!

I figure it's the IAC (Idle Air Control) valve. But, if there are other possibilities, I'm all ears!

Suggestions?

And... the latest. I haven't heard back in almost 2 weeks, so I called and talked to the Manager in Customer Service. They explained that their systems don't go back to the 80's and suggested I call the 'Heritage Center' (586.276.0693)

That number has been eternally busy...

Update: I called GM, again, and talked to a Supervisor in Customer Service. They were pretty adamant, at first, that if it wasn't in the system, there wasn't a recall for it. I explained that the NHTSA documents say my VIN is included.

I finally asked the question differently: is there a possibility there's an error in the system?

She looked up the doc on the NHTSA site and finally agreed that there could be a system error. She said she will look into it and, personally, call me back. Fingers crossed!

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Even though this post has been around for 10 years, it was helpful to me in removing the seat belt assembly.

It's a T-45 torx bolt, BTW. And it took a LONG time because I only got 1 click on the ratchet with the limited space behind the seat. AND... it got a lot tougher to turn when the bolt was nearly out.

The latest in the saga is that the dealer checked with the local/regional GM Representative. They said my VIN is not showing up in the GM Workbench system. So, they are concluding that there are no recalls for my VIN... sigh. Despite my providing them the documentation from the recall.

When any of you other C4 owners go to the NHTSA site and search for you VIN, does it say it can't be found in the GM system?

So, here's the latest:

I found that the exact color (graphite) was out of stock, but a medium gray seat belt kit is still available (for $129!).

I called the dealer and they couldn't find any open recalls for my VIN. They recommended I call GM (800.462.8782). GM opened a case, but apparently is using the same system, which shows no open recalls for my VIN. I explained that the recall campaign DOES include my VIN, but the rep basically said, "if it's not in the system, you're out of luck." They said that safety recalls do not expire, but that any repair would NOT be covered by GM and would be out of pocket and said I should call the dealer back. I see a vicious circle in my future :-|

Today, the seat belt locked up on my 87.
I was using the cinch button and when I unbuckled, I noticed the seat belt didn't retract all the way back, like it usually does. When I did get it to retract, I couldn't pull the seat belt back out!

I had to drive home with no seat belt.

I called the dealer because I remembered something about seat belts years ago... maybe a recall. The dealer looked up my VIN and said, "Nope", no recalls for seat belts for your vehicle.

I went to the NHTSA site and did a search for my VIN. No luck, as the GM lookup couldn't even find my car :-(
I did a more generic search for 87 Corvettes and found 3 recalls. https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/1987/CHEVROLET/CORVETTE#recalls
Sure enough, there is a recall for seat belts! Interior Systems: Active Seat and Shoulder Belts
NHTSA Campaign 91V143000 It's from 1991: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/1991/RC-91V143-NN.PDF

There are 60+ pages of info (some duplicated), but on page 4, it says dealers are to service all vehicles (1984-1991 Corvettes) subject to this campaign at no charge to owners, regardless of mileage, age of vehicle, or ownership, from this time forward.

I plan to call the dealer, again, next week and we'll see what happens!

Thanks for the helpful tips and things to ponder!

You guys are awesome!

I'm due to replace the front brake pads on my 87 and I'm pretty sure the rotors are going to need to be replaced, too (according to my maintenance records, I turned the rotors the last time I did the front brakes).

If I'm going to order new rotors, I'm thinking I might as well get slotted discs. Or, is it not worth it unless I'm out at the track? (which I haven't done in years)

If you agree, is there an obvious best choice for rotors? (I have Hawk pads)

Since I bought a used window regulator, I'm thinking it would be best to lube the tracks up a bit, but I'm not sure what kind of grease to use.

Is white grease the way to go?

In looking closer at the old regulator, it looks like the lubricant is gray, which makes me wonder if it's graphite-based.

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I'm referring to the rubber weather stripping that goes around the door and up to each end of the window.

Thanks for the pointer toward Wilcox. I'll see if I can hold off putting the trim back on the door for a few days.

I noticed the weather stripping around the window, and the entire door, really, is pretty cracked. In the "while you're at it" category, I should probably replace the weather stripping while I have the door panel off.

Unfortunately, I didn't think about this earlier and didn't order the part in advance. Is weatherstripping a special order item and expensive? Or, can I likely find it somewhere today? (so that I can get the door put back together this weekend)

I bought a used regulator off a 93.
I got past most of the typical sticking points, but really struggled with getting the regulator out of the door.
I thought sure I'd find some video that would show how to do it, but no luck.
This page gave me a clue: http://webpages.charter.net/khasting/ ... g/techinfo/windowreg.html

I believe what I showed in the picture is where the gear was attached (likely welded, as far as I can tell) to the frame (but broke apart). So, even though the motor was all the way down, the frame was rising all the way to the top because of the spring. I think that was making it really hard to 'tip' the regulator toward the back of the door.

I pulled the frame down by hand and was finally able to get the regulator out... whew!

It looks like I have the new (used on the convertible) style in my 87.

I tried pushing down on the window, while pressing the power window button 'down', and the window went down.

I took the door panel off and found what I think is a sheared off fastener between the 'gear' and the frame holding the glass (there's a shiny aluminum 'hole' just above the spring in the pic).

Has anyone encountered this before? Is this likely a rivet that I might just be able to replace? Or some other fastener? I can't see anything in the bottom of the door without taking the aluminum frame out.

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Ahhh... good to know! I will definitely look into that.

Thanks much!

The drivers side window, in my 87, won't roll down. I can hear the motor running, so I'm guessing it's some part of the regulator. Maybe the 'flex rack' (the name shown in the FSM) is broken?

Anyone have experience repairing the window regulator in early C4's? Is the flex rack replaceable (if that's what the problem turns out to be). Is it most likely something else?

Years ago, I posted about a problem I was having with my 87 running rich and occasionally setting a Code 45 (Rich Exhaust), plus the MPG was way off (30-40%) between what the dash showed and what I calculated:

http://www.corvetteforum.guru/modules ... id=248808#forumpost248808

It failed an emissions test, so I took it to a shop for diagnosis and they concluded it was the diverter valve in the A.I.R. system (no replacement parts available).

I tried a bunch of things, on my own, to try to figure out what was causing the problem.

I disconnected (and plugged) the tubes in the A.I.R. system (no difference).
I replaced the IAC.
I checked the FPR vacuum hose for fuel (it's dry).
I put in a new O2 sensor.
I checked the resistance on the injectors (a pretty consistent 17.6-17.7 ohms each).
I checked the fuel pressure (42 PSI on prime, running at 40. Holds pressure fine).
I pulled spark plugs (all pretty fouled with black soot).
I checked for vacuum leaks (no surges in engine speed).
I disconnected (and plugged) the lines from the charcoal canister (EECS)(no difference).

I collected data and found the Block Learn (BLM) at 108 nearly all the time, the O2 super high 800+ mv most of the time, and very few cross-counts (Rich ALL the time).

I finally gave up and took it in to a different shop. They ran it through a full battery of tests and decided it must be the ECM because they saw some erratic data and everything else checked out. They replaced the ECM and all is well! It was a case of scrambled brains in the computer! I had wondered if my custom chip could be at fault, but it's running fine with the custom chip now.

Comparing data now, to then, I see the Base Pulse Correction would erratically bounce between 60's to 100's and now it's 120's and 130's most all the time. If I had known more about what I was looking at, and what was 'normal', I *might* have been able to focus on the erratic behavior of the Base Pulse Correction, but I'm not sure I would have concluded that the ECM had lost its mind.

I've read about others with similar symptoms, so I'm posting this just in case my experience helps someone else...

Thanks for the info from the 89 FSM... the 'in-tank' part is not in the 87 manual (they must have figured out it would be helpful to add it!).

I suspect something is up with the EECS, as well, so I'll try looking at that again (I tried months ago, but didn't find anything wrong).

Cheers!

Hmmm... the drawing on page C3-3 shows a Tank Pressure Control Valve separate from the Solenoid (which is next to the canister) and the Purge Control Valve (which is ON the canister).

The other day, after the car sat in the sun for about an hour, and then driving about an hour home, I noticed gurgling in the back and there was a lot of pressure when I unscrewed the gas cap (it was REALLY hard to unscrew, too).

In the FSM, for my 87, page 6E3-C3-1, it talks about a fuel tank pressure control valve, but I can't find out where it's located. On top of the fuel tank?

Thanks for all the great info!

I'm sure I will have my camera at the ready!

I didn't know about the assembly plant tour, so I will definitely plan to do that, as well.

Cheers!

I'm taking a trip to Kentucky in late March and planning to visit the Corvette Museum in Bowling Green.

Any advice?

I'm probably most likely to have about a half a day there.

Thanks for the link... the tire shop can get the locking nuts off, I need something to put back ON.

In case anyone else is looking to replace their OEM locking lug nuts, there are several GM part numbers for the 'Wheel Lock Nuts' that seem like they will fit the C4s. 14073714, 14091982 and 10034341. I didn't have any luck with any of those, but I did find a few 999057 on eBay (for $25-30), which *should* work.

Someone pointed out that I probably don't need the locking nuts anymore (I was just mentally 'stuck' on replacing what I had), so I'm planning to just put regular lug nuts on. I found that one tire shop didn't have the lug nuts, another did (for $4 ea!) and was surprised to find that the local auto parts shop can get them new for less than $2 each. The regular OEM nuts are 12x1.5 with a part number of 611-109.

I don't have the wheel lock key for my OEM locking lug nuts for my 87. I found McGard replacement locking lug nuts and wheel locks, but I saw a note that said the outside threads do not match the plastic caps.

Can anyone confirm that you can't screw on the caps on the McGard lug nuts?

I tried a wrecking yard, but it seems wheels (and locking lug nuts and wheel lock key are loooong gone.

I'm sure this problem has been solved by lots of people, but it's proving a challenge. I'd like to keep my OEM caps. The dealer said they can't get replacement keys anymore.

Is there another brand of replacement locking lug nuts with outside threads that DO match the plastic caps?

I ordered the Monroe MaxLift supports from RockAuto.

Even though the part numbers (901764 and 901016) were different, the defroster connectors had the same orientation for both of them!

The connector was in the correct spot for the driver's side strut, but backwards for the passenger side. I contemplated sending it back, but I test fit the passenger side and it cleared the trim, and the defroster wires are long enough to connect, so I'm not going to bother with the hassle or returning it.

BTW, the ends of the OEM struts unscrewed easily, which made getting the rubber bumpers (that rest against the top when it's in the back) off pretty easy. I couldn't unscrew the top of the new lift supports, so I just stretched the rubber bumpers over the defroster connector. It seemed to work well (and the bumpers fit snug).

I disconnected both of the solenoids (for diverter and switching valves, I think; hoping they would close, by default, when disconnected), but it made no difference in the high O2 readings and it running rich all the time.

I tried disconnecting the MAF, too. But, it also didn't seem to make a difference in O2 readings.

It *could* be a rich, or leaking injector, but since 2 spark plugs looked the same, I suspect more a whole system problem.

From looking, again, at the list of possible causes in the FSM, it could also be the ECM.

I wonder about the EGR valve... could THAT be the cause?

So, what happens if you remove the hoses to the manifolds and DON'T cap them off? That would mean some air would be drawn into the exhaust, right?

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Thanks for the info! What is best to use to cap off the manifolds? Is is a typical size cap you can buy? Or do you just use duct tape?

Sorry for the delay... I've been out of town for a week and need to get back to figuring this out

It turns out I don't have to go through emissions anymore (exempt after 25 years old, I think), so I can definitely try capping off the AIR lines. What is the easiest way to 'disable' the AIR system? It seems those tubes run in, and around, everywhere!

If I reset the ECM (disconnect battery), that might force it to 'learn' from scratch, but it shouldn't effect the O2 sensor reading, right? And the O2 indicates it's running extremely rich.

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I didn't pull the cap, but it (and the rotor) was replaced just 2 years ago.

I moved some of the plug wires a bit, just in case, but no difference.

I just checked for vacuum leaks by spraying carb cleaner around the intake and every vacuum hose I could find. No surges in engine speed.

I suspect, since both 5 and 7 were equally fouled, that the rest are fouled, too.

I'm sort of at a loss at this point...

A few years ago, when the car failed emissions (high Hydrocarbons (of 450; limit 220)) at idle, a shop said a component of the A.I.R. system wasn't working right (the diverter or switching valve, I think), but also said a replacement part was not available. Even though it failed emissions, at idle, it idled and ran fine. So, if the valve isn't working right and there IS air to the ports in closed loop, that means it's potentially injecting air into the exhaust, right? How would air injected into the exhaust cause a high hydrocarbon reading at idle?

I finally checked the resistance on the injectors... after figuring out how to release the plugs (push inward, toward the plenum, on the u-clip and pull up on the wires at the same time) a pretty consistent 17.6-17.7 ohms each.

I checked the fuel pressure... 42 PSI on prime, running at 40. Holds pressure for a few minutes, but was at 20 PSI after 15 minutes and 10-15 PSI after 30 mins.

I pulled a couple of plugs (#5 and #7) and found both to be pretty fouled with black soot. I cleaned 'em up because I didn't have any replacements on hand.

Wondering what this points to next...

Surprise Surprise! I put the new O2 sensor in Friday and the initial data didn't look good. I collected more data today on the drive to, and from, work (30 mins). The O2 is spending ALL it's time between 950 and 1,000 mV!! So, it's running rich ALL the time and I have virtually NO cross-counts.

The old O2 sensor was pretty coked up with black soot. My O2 sensor is installed on the drivers side, right after the manifold connects to the exhaust pipes. The Evap system feeds in waaay downstream, well after the cats, so I suspect that is less likely the issue.

Tonight, when I pulled in the garage, I swear I could hear a misfire, so I'm going to look into checking the injectors and plugs, starting with 1, 3, 5 and 7.

Thanks for posting the article. I rarely find anything that is flawless, but can usually find something worthwhile in most everything I read.

Since Matatk pointed out the caption under the pic of the O2 sensor, that brings up a significant possibility... just a couple of years ago, I had the head gaskets replaced because of a coolant leak. I just got the AC Delco O2 sensor tonight, so I'll be curious to see if the old one has a white coating.

From the data I've collected, it appears the code is intermittent and the airflow seems commensurate with throttle position and engine speed (so the MAF doesn't *appear* to be the culprit).

The FSM chart for Code 45 points you at the Diagnostic Aids. Unfortunately, for me, I'm lacking the equipment to get very far. I can check the fuel pressure (and when I did it a year ago, it was fine), but I don't have an injector tester to do an injector balance test.

So, I hope to find time to get the O2 replaced in the next few days and also to check the fuel pressure again.

Thanks for all the info and the help!

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That's *exactly* what I was hoping to do, Schrade. But, I'm not able to figure out, so far, what the cause might be. I have heard that the O2, itself, might be the cause.

The part that has me most confused is that I'm getting the 45 code (running rich), but the MPG on the dash (which I believe is based on pulse width) is high, indicating that the engine is running lean. But, *actual* (calculated) MPG is lower than normal.

I'm also wondering about the Evap Emissions system... I think it may be pumping air into the exhaust full time, but can't figure out how that would cause a rich condition.

Any help will be most appreciated!

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There are actually a couple of choices out there that I found. The one I bought is made by Red Devil River (http://www.reddevilriver.com/ALDL_Bluetooth.php). The one drawback is that it requires 12V power, so you either have to add a connector to pin G of the ALDL plug or you have to connect a USB cable from the adapter to a computer or lighter socket.

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No, I have stock headers.

Thanks for the info! I will get a new O2, then... I just wish it wasn't such a bitch to get at :-)

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I was considering throwing an O2 sensor at the problem, but wanted to get some data first. So, the O2 values look normal, but the cross counts mean it's spending too much time either lean or rich, right?

Does 'lazy' mean it's just taking too long to sense, and report, the changes?

If you were to replace it, would you choose a wide-band sensor? Or a stock one? And, if stock, a Bosch or an AC/Delco?

Thanks much!

I have an electrical supplement (second book) for my 87

I noticed my 87 was hunting for idle (between 500-700 RPM). It's worse with no load and smooths out pretty well under load (such as A/C on). I replaced the IAC, but the hunting for idle remains. And, since then, I've gotten a Code 45 (Rich Exhaust) a few times. The car seems to run fine, other than at idle.

According to the FSM, a code 45 is set when it's in closed loop and the O2 sensor records a high (> 0.7 V) reading for more than 50 seconds. The FSM lists lots of potential causes.

I just got set up with a bluetooth ALDL adapter and I'm using ALDLdroid on my phone to log data. What I found is that it's not staying in closed loop very long. It went into closed loop a few minutes after cold start, but then went back into open loop 20 seconds later. For the first 10 mins, it was in open loop most of the time, switching to closed loop about 5-6 times for only about 10 seconds each time. Finally, about 20 minutes into the trip, it stayed in closed loop for about 2 minutes (while I was cruising on the freeway).

The O2 was typically between 400 and 600 mV. It got as high as 850 when I was on the freeway. Cross-counts reset about 20 times during the trip, but were stable when it was running rich for a period of time, (seems to make sense, to me).

BLMs were typically between 108 and 124, but hit 128 and 130 at times, while I was on the freeway (about 15 mins).

From what little I know, it's supposed to stay in closed loop once it warms up. Is that right? Does it seem like the O2 sensor is working correctly? What else should I be looking at?

On another trip, it started out in open loop for about 4 minutes, running lean with BLM = 118, O2 between 350-450, no cross-counts. Then O2 started climbing to 700 and it went into closed loop. O2 was in the 750-850 range while I was cruising on the freeway. When I got stuck in stop-n-go traffic, the O2 came back down to 4-500 range and it went back into open loop with BLM 108 most of the time. It toggled in-n-out of closed loop a few times. It looks like once I took my foot off the throttle for 10 seconds, it goes back to open loop.

Any other ideas of what might likely be causing it to run rich?

It also seems to be an intermittent problem because there are days that it idles smooth and seems to run normal.

Any help would be MUCH appreciated!

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THAT's good to know! I called one place this evening and Bosch is what they had. Normally, I would think they make pretty good parts.

I haven't changed anything else recently. No codes, either.

I do have a laptop and cable that I can use to see how it's running (will add that to my list of things to do).

The O2 sensor is definitely NOT new. It might be 10 years old, it might be 20 years old! I've read about different types of O2 sensors over the years, is there an obvious best choice?

I do have a custom chip and a shop told me (years ago, while doing an emissions diagnosis) that it was running too rich at idle. I think I heard somewhere along the way that the O2 sensor is not involved at idle... is that correct?

Thanks!

Thanks Matatk. I finally found time to pull the throttle body off and get the IAC out and clean it up. It seems to be idling fine on first test. We'll see how it does this coming week.

I'm baffled by the sudden jump in the calculated gas mileage. Something is confusing the ECM, that's for sure. It's one thing to be off by about 10%, but now it's off by about 40%.

In the past week, my 87 has started doing a little seek-n-find at idle. It's not super-bad, just bouncing between 600-700 RPM. My first thought is the IAC valve (I had trouble with that sticking years ago, so it might be due for a good cleaning, if not replacement). Is there a more likely culprit?

Another thing I noticed is that the dash mileage was surprisingly high... it was reading about 25 MPG. It normally shows about 21 (and calculating it manually shows it's really about 19). I filled up today and the *real* mileage for the last tank was about 18 MPG.

Are these symptoms possibly related? I don't *think* so, but life is full of surprises! I believe the MPG calc in the dash is based on injector pulse duration. Maybe the idle problem is throwing it off???

Cheers!

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Are you sure you're talking about FUEL pressure (read through a pressure gauge you attach to the schrader valve on the fuel rail -- right next to the fuel pressure regulator)? Or, are you talking about 3 lbs pressure reading on the dash for OIL pressure?

If you can start it again, and it runs for even 10 seconds, that means you have fuel pressure. Since others suspect the regulator, pull the vacuum hose off the regulator when there's pressure in the system and see if any fuel comes out of the regulator... give it a minute or two.

I totally understand your frustration...

I agree that it sounds like a ground problem; the alternator may be charging, but the battery is not receiving the charge. When you check voltage across the battery terminals, it's fine, right? But, when you put a big load on (cranking), the ground connection isn't strong enough to support it.

The jump provides enough extra amperage.

Have you cleaned both ends of your battery ground cable?