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| TommyT-Bone | Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Chair-man of the bored
 
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Attach file:  unbelievable.jpg (9.92 KB) the wave.jpg (11.97 KB) |
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 16:42
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| bogus | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
 
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Yup.
The recession of 1991 was caused by the tax package that Reagan pushed thru in 1981. We are now paying the bill for Bush's tax cut. Toss in the other economic complexities, and all hell is about to break loose. And do not, I repeat, do not blame Obama for this mess. I am sure he has some culpability, but it is minor, if measurable at all. This is about both parties fucking with tax rates to win votes. The problem has grown because of the desire for an immediate to all economic woes. This translates into our nations desire to profit quickly, or you are left for dead. We used to be a nation of pragmatic people. Who invested for the long haul, now, we ditch someone or something if they haven't performed exceptionally over the last 2 quarters. That attitude is going to ruin us. Tax cuts do have a positive effect on the ppl. They think they are saving bundles of cash, but it really isn't THAT much cash being saved. A few percent here and there, especially when its not compounded, makes little difference... Think about it... $1,000,000.00 a year salary... at 35% = $350k, at 39% = $390k. Um. Ok. It's money, but spread out over 12 months, it kinda vanishes. $40k over 12 months = a little over $3k per month. If you take that $1m, devide by 24 pay periods, you get a gross of $41,667... See? The tax rate would have an affect, but I don't see it being crippling. At the same time, the numbers I just presented don't take into account the lower rates at the lower end. You don't get that rate for the entire $1m, only the last upper $750k or so. My biggest problem is that the government provides us with services, national security, roads, you name it. Even with these tax hikes, we will have the lowest tax rate of any western nation, and we still need to pay for our services. My biggest gripe is that many of the services don't immediately touch us. Thanks to political wrangling, road projects get delayed, so we have to drive on crappy roads... or we simply go through our lives, blessed with the wealth of not needing them. For me, my college education was a direct result of a government program - VA Benefits, from my father who died. So I do have a slightly different perspective on these things. Personally, it is time for all the political bull shit to stop. Everyone needs to circle the wagons, turn off the hatred and rancor and solve this problem once and for all. Let everyone who voted for it be able to take credit in its success. Shut off the pundits who confuse and obfusicate, simply because they can. This problem is just to big to allow any one party to fix it. Every government program, every project, everything must be audited, investigated and determined if the ROI is there. Otherwise, it is gone. We must consolidate our governments, at ALL levels. Right now, California is looking at four more years of hell, because we have the worst choices for governor available... Meg Whitman, Republican, former CEO of eBay... the woman never voted for anyone... now wants my vote. Lies, flat out LIES about the results of her opponents political past, Jerry Brown... however, Jerry has gone off his bean in the last few years... he has drifted so damned far to the left, I don't think he knows the middle still exists. There is a need in our country for some good old fashioned statesmen and pragmatism. No more politics. Stop the insanity. It only makes for good sound bites and in general, all it does is anger the ignorant. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 17:20
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| DaleD | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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If you think that adding unfunded entitlements, increasing the debt and deficit more than double that of a free spending predecessor is not measurable at all, we aren't watching the same game. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 17:33
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Whenever someone says "I'm not book smart, but I'm street smart", all I hear is "I'm not real smart, but I'm imaginary smart". |
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| bogus | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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It's all the same game, dude... that's my point. There has been precident established to do all that he did.
And its those things that need to be audited. BTW, how can an unfunded entitlement hurt us? By its very definition it means nothing. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 17:43
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| BeachBum | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Master Guru
 
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I hate politics.... they make me feel dirty. But, I kind of agree with Bogus post....any President would have had to create an expensive stimulus considering the sitution put in front of him. (As all countries did... a Stimulus package was not reserved for just America, all civilized countries had an expensive stimulus package that was basically close to ours per % of GDP) What would have anybody else done ? Thats the question I ask myself.... you could say, hey, maybe McCain would have done something different..... but what ? The right enjoys spending as much as the left.... this we know. But, I do agree, at some point we gotta look at what were spending and start cutting.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S ... al_Spending_-_FY_2007.png Me personally, I read the other day that we are spending 4 Billion dollars per month "just training" the Afghan army..... and no end in sight. What a mess.... And I won't even bring up the money spent in Iraq. I'd cut something from everything on the above linked pie chart if possible.... I have no clue what, but something. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 17:51
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| DaleD | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Senior Guru
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An unfunded entitlement is a bill you don't have money to pay. Social Security is an unfunded entitlement at this point. Sure they take our money, but the withholding pays only a fraction of the outgoing benefits. Why? They rolled Social Security into the general fund and also expanded the benefits. If you think an unfunded entitlement is not harmful, have the government quit paying Social Security and see what happens. I've heard in various places, that the financial reform, 2500 pages of it, will not be implemented totally for as far out as 10 years. Why? No one knows what all is in it. There is nothing as scary to business as uncertainty. Unemployment is very high, and shows no signs of recovering. Businesses don't hire when they don't know what is coming at them next. In Bush's first term, he had to deal with an economy that had begun to falter after the .com bubble burst, and 9/11. Mr. Bush was cut no slack in the presidential race of 2004. I just say, apply the same standards to Mr. Obama. He's the man in charge, it's his watch, hold him accountable. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 17:56
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Whenever someone says "I'm not book smart, but I'm street smart", all I hear is "I'm not real smart, but I'm imaginary smart". |
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| BeachBum | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Master Guru
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Who rolled the social security into the general fund ? When was that done ? Doesn't seem right to me, but I dunno. On what Bush and Obama were up against..... considerably different. Obama was met at the front door with an overdrawn federal checking account, Housing collapse, Financial collapse, Near Depression economy, Dire straits world economy, two very expensive wars going no-where, etc..... Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of Obama....I personally do not think he had the experience for what was to meet him and I think he's in wayyyyy over his head..... yet, I also do not blame him for everything.... guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that whole healthcare thing.... wrong time to address it. That was a mistake in my opinion and should not have been passed..... but I dunno, maybe it'll work out. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 18:05
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| DaleD | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Senior Guru
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From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_(United_States) "Medicare and Medicaid were added in 1965 by the Social Security Act of 1965, part of President Lyndon B. Johnson's "Great Society" program. Social Security was changed to withdraw funds from the independent "Trust Fund" and put it into the General Fund for additional congressional revenue." You can argue the challenges of the two presidencies are different, that's fine. I would say that an attack on our soil that killed thousands, and destroyed two major buildings in the heart of our financial sector, at at time when our economy was failing, is, to use Joe Biden's words: "A big f'ing deal". Either way, Obama signed up for the job. No, he paid big money to get the job. He wanted it, it's his. I'm ex military, and I believe in the chain of command. It's Obama's watch, if it's not going well, it's his fault. If things turn around he gets the credit. I don't see much credit coming Mr. Obama's way anytime soon. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 18:21
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Whenever someone says "I'm not book smart, but I'm street smart", all I hear is "I'm not real smart, but I'm imaginary smart". |
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| BeachBum | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Master Guru
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With the social security going into a general fund, it doesn't seem right that they should or could do that.... but its politics, so it doesn't surprise me.
With Bush and 9/11.... I agree, of course it was a big deal, it stopped our country in its tracks. With Obama, I hold him responsible for his actions.... and nothing more or less. And I question what he or anybody could do with the current state of not just the USA, but the world. As proven by this recession, the world is inter-connected. In my opinion, there are no quick fixes to what has happened over the last 2-3 years..... going to take time and unfortunately, many do not have a lot of time. I will say, the economy is recovering.... I am in the Manufacturing industry, and most companies are doing very well right now, whereas a year ago, it was bleak. But, uncertainity is our biggest enemy.... fear drives our market from the top down. But, its getting better every month.... but, still a long ways to go yet. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 19:04
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863 cubic inches of C4 & C6 muscle C6 Corvette Z06 - Lemans Metallic Blue C4 Corvette 436 - Pure Black http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3933547 ... chevrolet-corvette/page-1 |
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| BillH | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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The Stig Moderator
 
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Accurate statement. Hell, they didn't read the Health Care bill. They didn't read the Arizona Immigration Reform bill and it was only a few pages. They aren't reading the Finincial Reform bill. No wonder "No one knows what all is in them". |
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 19:32
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Every man dies but not every man lives. |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Senior Guru
 
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Lots of people are content with the blame game. I don't see the point in that. Maybe it makes people feel better about who they voted for, and is more interesting than talking about ideas.
First off, get rid of the brand loyalty, it clouds judgement. Obama is not your close friend, and Bush is not your daddy, so there's absolutely no reason to defend or excuse them. I don't see a way out of the mess, at least not something the majority would vote for, because most voters have put themselves in the left box or the right box, both of which lately have a track record of bloating the federal government with no end in sight. And soon we're going to be in 3 wars at the same time. Quote: Every government program, every project, everything must be audited, investigated and determined if the ROI is there. Otherwise, it is gone. We must consolidate our governments, at ALL levels. I agree, but by who? Another government committee? A financial czar appointed by Obama and influenced by special interests? There's no way out. Just for fun, read up on the latest report on government funded intelligence agencies. There's thousands of them, all operating independently of each other, spending tax dollars on god knows what, and producing duplicitave work, or producing nothing. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 19:39
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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| TommyT-Bone | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Chair-man of the bored
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There is not a lot of tax generation in a stagnant economy. When the recovery takes place the coffers will once again begin to fill. The economic future is highly unpredictable right now. We could easily slip into a double dip recession. One day we will recover but this adjustment was long overdue. Poor financial policies drove this country to the brink of disaster. An inflated stock market, real estate market and people on a spending frenzy prompted by the ideology of you have to spend to grow the economy. Typical of a government reprentative to promote such a foolish notion. You cannot spend more than you can afford and survive. You must save for the future and build up cash reserves. Base level financial planning is not being taken seriously by our elected officials. This is what they have mastered.
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 19:45
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Great, but what part of Bush's response to that, and all the money spent, has prevented it from happening again? How much of that money spent has increased our risk of being attacked? The answer is, we don't know. It's all confidential and therefore no one can be held accountable for the money spent. And the people spending it aren't about to tell us they are no longer needed. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 19:46
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Senior Guru
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I think we need some more economists running the show. The last few presidents couldn't even balance their own checkbook.
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 19:48
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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| bogus | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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I question the experience statement.
How do we determine experience for the job of President? Longer terms in the Senate? Longer stints as Governor? Sorry, but really, neither prepare one to be President. The hard fact is, the first term is the learning experience, the second term should be the more effective. The real key to the presidency is communications. It's how Reagan and Clinton succeeded and how Bush (mainly the II, but Dad wasn't great) failed. I think Obama is a good communicator, not great, but good. Carter failed as a communicator. So did Ford and Nixon, and for that matter, LBJ... JFK and FDR were great, Truman and Ike, ok. The key to communication is being able to reach people in a language they understand, without being simple or condecnding about it. It's an art. I am with CC here, it is time we stop the bullshit, stop the blame game and just start fixing the problems. In short, it's time to reboot the system. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 20:28
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Senior Guru
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Obama is a great speaker, but I'm less and less convinced of his ability to communicate.
Everytime he speaks, no matter how informal the setting, it's like he's reading someone elses lecture. I sense no engaging thought there. And he has his poker face on every time. Bush II on the other hand, is more like Joe Biden. They say some stupid things, but their mannerisms and emotions at least clue you into what they are thinking, which I appreciate. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 21:10
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Yeah, that's a problem. Imagine if it was left to the common public to elect the CEO of a private company. People that aren't qualified to vote, are inevitably going to for someone not qualified to preside. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 21:14
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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| BeachBum | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Master Guru
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Obama might be a good communicator, but in todays political environment, I think he needs to be a "great" communicator..... and a lot of that comes with experience. Perhaps age is a better word, I dunno. But, we do know the Republicans wouldn't give him a yes vote even if it was a bill that gives them all mansions stocked with virgins..... The Obstructionism (or whatever its called), can only be gotten around if you can somehow sell them and I think it takes a great amount of experience or wisdom or something to make that happen.... and we know its not happening, thus we have a problem.
But, then again, perhaps nobody regardless of who it is and what level of experience they have could not make anything work in this political environment.... I don't know, I'm just thinking outloud. But, I do agree with that 1st term vs 2nd term thing.... seems logical. Just a question of if he'll get a 2nd term. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 21:44
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863 cubic inches of C4 & C6 muscle C6 Corvette Z06 - Lemans Metallic Blue C4 Corvette 436 - Pure Black http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3933547 ... chevrolet-corvette/page-1 |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Senior Guru
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Would be interesting to see Hillary go up against Mr. Obama in 2012.
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Posted on: 2010/7/29 21:59
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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| TommyT-Bone | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Chair-man of the bored
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Posted on: 2010/7/30 11:10
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| skirlin | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Senior Guru
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Obama is a smashing success. He is a student of Rules for Radicals By Saul Alinsky and everything is according to plan. The Dems have controlled congress the last three 1/2 years with the push over Bush at the helm. The Republicans before that....PLEASE! They won control and didn't know what to do with it. McCain would have done nothing differently other than maybe not bow to royalty and bad mouth America. McCain is the reason I did not vote Republican in 2008, Libertarian (the closest thing to a conservative I could find).
I agree about the reboot, our government does not fear us and have only contempt. They seem to have forgotten who works for who. I no longer see them as Dems or Repubs but rather statesmen civil servants or scumbags. Hells bells, America's got growing pains. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 5:51
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There is no point in living if you can't feel alive. |
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| TommyT-Bone | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Chair-man of the bored
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That means Americans have growing pains as they lose the battles and loss of control over every aspect of life continues. New regulations passed at every turn. I personally get really uncomfortable when I take a good look at personal freedom. It's upsetting and unsettling to say the least. Regulation is the response to almost every issue. How about some action for a change. Action not words. I guess it'll have to be regulated, governed and overseen action. First we have to appoint a commitee, do a feasabilty study and find a willing sponsor to present a bill. That should take no more than 2 terms.  Attach file: congress.jpg (83.43 KB) Senate_in_session.jpg (35.95 KB) justices_full.jpg (85.36 KB)  President and staff.bmp (476.13 KB) |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 11:24
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| BillH | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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The Stig Moderator
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And if someone gets that bill together: Nome of them will read it before they vote. Dems will vote yea it the bill's title sounds good or feels good (Health Care) or nay if it feels bad (Arizona). But they still won't know what's in the bill (just ask Nancy). Repubs will vote opposite the Dems as usual. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 12:52
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Every man dies but not every man lives. |
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| BeachBum | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Master Guru
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I admit, I do not follow politics very closely.... hence, why I probably do not know, but why are so many saying that Obama is a disaster of a President ?
What exactly has he done that would constitute the hate for him that I see all around the Internet ? Just something I do not understand. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 14:32
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| Vetron87 | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Elite Guru
 
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Anytime the gov't becomes "big" we lose! Do I really want the Gov't running private business. GM for example, do our politians really know the car business? No! they know how to put the key in and start it, thats it! Obama's "change" has not been very successfull. Cash for Clunkers! He touts in Detroit yesterday about 55,000 new jobs but what about the 2 million lost! does the American consumer really want the Volt or is that what the Administration wants! The ongoing war is a another can of worms!.. I hate to see our troops saddled with "when to shoot" policy. Armed forces are used when political policies fail. I have been in that situation! not fun, if I need to think about my consequences and jail time in a war situation and if I take out the bad guy I lose! The fog of war means nothing to the politician. Unfortunately the president can't do anything right when war is taking American Lives. I have a lot of problems with personnal freedoms and the potiential loss of those freedoms. In other words will the Gov't tell us what to drive,how to shop and what to buy!IMO  |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 15:05
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Bone stock 87 conv. |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Giving away tax dollars to banks, Giving away tax dollars to GM and Chrysler, Giving away tax dollars to bribe people to get into new car loans and destroy their old, functional cars. Giving away tax dollars funding unsuccessful wars. Giving away tax dollars to people doing strategic foreclosures. Spending tax dollars litigating against the state of AZ for trying to do the feds job, instead of protecting AZ, which is their job. We're broke, and his solution is to print more money. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 16:22
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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| TommyT-Bone | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Chair-man of the bored
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Ya know, after this one, I hope that the US will take a more defensive posture. I know it will have long term effects on the the rest of the world but we have been on a 100 year merry-go-round of involvement in political manipulation through conflict. Now as in the past 50 years or more we have acted as peacekeepers for whomever we want to be in power including dictators. Let's get away from this offensive show of power, might and finances. We're breaking the friggin bank with all this global policing. Lets fight the good fight here at home. You can't help anybody else if your own house is out of order. By the way, I love the term peacekeeper. Attach file: peacekeeper.jpg (3.95 KB) |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 17:01
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| BillH | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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The Stig Moderator
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Well said. And don't forget the big up and coming one - Health Care. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 18:25
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Every man dies but not every man lives. |
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| BeachBum | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Master Guru
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- With the tax dollars to banks.... Didn't they pay it back or paying it back as we speak ? What would have been the repercussions if the feds let those banks go out of business ? Worse or better ? (I do not know myself) - With the GM and Chrysler, thats a difficult one.... you can't let them go out of business, they are the backbone of sooooooo much infrastructure in this country. In my opinion, If they go away, this hurts our country severely long term....but thats subjective I guess. But, are they paying back the money or not ? I do not know... - With the clunker program, that was an experiment.... rather it worked or not depends on who you are, it did get people buying cars, but the expense was probably way too much. But, I do not hate the government for doing that.... they were at least trying something to get it going. Was it the right thing ? Probably not, but I personally do not think it was that big of a deal.... live and learn. - With the funding of the wars.... what can he do ? Trapped in them for the most part. You can't walk away, the expensive antique was broken when you walked into the store and broke it.... you gotta fix it before you leave. But, I agree, it would be nice if we could somehow get out of them cleanly. We never should have broke those countries in the first place..... I got no problem with going after Al Quaida (or whatever they're called)....but, to take apart, and then subsequently having to rebuild both of these countries at a cost of trillion plus was never mentioned when we were sold on the plan in the first place.... in fact, I think it was supposed to be a money maker. - With foreclosure fraud as I call it.... it goes on, no doubt about it, but it also helps people.... there has always been fraud with every government or non-government program in existance.... if money is changing hands, there will always be those there to find the loophole and take advantage of it. I agree that should end.... I agree the country is spending too much, serious cuts need to be made short and long term..... however, I will say, my taxes have not gone up, so at this point, nobody is making me pay for anything..... we'll see I guess. But, at the end of the day, in my opinion, I do not see any reason to hate Obama based upon the above.... tough decisions to make, some good and some probably very bad in a economic situation unseen in modern times..... there is no manual to read and follow when your advisers walk into your room all at the same time and tell you the economy is collapsing, the banks are busted, the automotive companies are going out of business, unemployment is shooting through the roof, the housing bubble exploded, the dollar is plunging and we are broke....and oh yeah, you got two wars going very poorly, and they need money too.......and this was the 2nd day at work. No easy answers. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 18:34
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Read My Lips ........ | ||
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Too big to fail is bullshit. They earned their failure. Where they fail, others will meet the demand. The government is too busy trying to inflate the next bubble to understand why the last one popped. Quote: - With the clunker program, that was an experiment.... rather it worked or not depends on who you are, it did get people buying cars, but the expense was probably way too much. But, I do not hate the government for doing that.... they were at least trying something to get it going. Was it the right thing ? Probably not, but I personally do not think it was that big of a deal.... live and learn. Sometimes no action is better than the wrong action. The end result was that taxdollars to the tune of approx $24K per car went towards bribing others to get new cars. If the point of all this was to save the whales, they wouldn't have destroyed assets (crushing old cars), and they would've allowed customers to buy used, efficient cars. But nope, the point was to temporarily boost new car sales. I wouldn't have been as annoyed if they didn't lie about their intentions. And yes they only paid $3-4K per customer, but many of those customers would've bought anyways. So they paid effectively $24K of your taxdollars to bribe future buyers. Then auto sales took a huge shit afterwards, so the net gain was nothing but a lot of wasted money and inflation. Quote: - With the funding of the wars.... what can he do ? Trapped in them for the most part. You can't walk away, the expensive antique was broken when you walked into the store and broke it.... you gotta fix it before you leave. But, I agree, it would be nice if we could somehow get out of them cleanly. We never should have broke those countries in the first place..... I got no problem with going after Al Quaida (or whatever they're called)....but, to take apart, and then subsequently having to rebuild both of these countries at a cost of trillion plus was never mentioned when we were sold ofn the plan in the first place.... in fact, I think it was supposed to be a money maker. Our nation-building resume isn't so great. Just leave. There is no dignity in fighting our way out of it, any more than just tucking our tails between our legs. "So sorry, we didn't bargain for this, you're on your own pals." Let the fucking UN take care of it, I really don't care. Quote:
Well, you still have a job. For many, that's not the case. I guess you could even say they are paying less taxes. I'm sure they're delighted about that. Quote:
No balls either. The president's job isn't to know everything, it's to know what he doesn't know, and to find the right help. And the things that he did promise, he's failed on. For godssake, he's still campaigning. |
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Posted on: 2010/8/1 7:42
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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