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mseven Pads, Rotors et all
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Motor City Madhouse
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Since I have the car up in the air waiting for the rims to come back from the powder coater I decided I'll go through the brakes before the season starts.

So I need some recomends on pads. An upgrade from stock is fine, but I don't want a super all metalic ultra trick creamic auto X er. Though it does need to be able to stop a modded car, the only track time it will see is the drag strip.

Mine are std. brakes, and while I'm in there if the rotors look a bit rashed I'll swap them out. Other than stock (from recycler) any reasonably priced drilled and or slotted ones out there? Please keep in mind I'm not interested in converting the entire system over (calipers et all to brembos etc.), I will still need them to fit 15" welds aside from my 17's.
TIA,
m7
Posted on: 2009/3/28 12:31
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Randyj75 Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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I bought a set of rotors off of Ebay two years ago, and no problems. Company is called iRotors, slotted, not drilled, and zinc washed, so no rust. I have Hawk HPS pads, and I love them. You may also think about S/S brake lines. Castrol synthetic brake fluid (you may as well change it all out).
This was the best mod I have done to my car so far.

Randy
Posted on: 2009/3/28 14:35
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pianoguy Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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I got a package of cryo-treated zinc-washed rotors and Hawk pads (I went with ceramic, as I don't track my car) for $300 from BSI Brakes last year, and I've been happy very with them. There's nothing wrong with stock rotors, either. I also installed speed bleeders and stainless lines, and flushed the brake fluid. I read recently that Earles has a new design of speed bleeders that doesn't rely on thread sealant, might be worth looking into. performancepeddler.com usually has good prices on Hawk pads - IMO, you can't go wrong with the Hawks. Just make sure to bed them according to their directions.
Posted on: 2009/3/28 14:54
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BillH Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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First, don't get drilled rotors, the only thing they have is a bunch of little stress risers that can start cracks.

Get slots if you like but they have no preformance gains at all. Standard rotors are just fine for what you want to do.
If you do find a decent set used, clean them up sith the scotchbrite 2 inch rotor disc.
If you get new rotors, wash them with brakeclean before installing.

Metalic pads?, no they squeel and don't have good perfoemance when cold. Ceramics last a long time but don't work well.

Hawk HPS are one of the best on the street, you'll see a noticeable difference compared to what you're running now. I run a lot of Hawks on the racecars.
Be sure to bed them in per the directions on the box.

Definately change the fluid. Castrol LMA is good unless you're going out on the roadrace tracks a lot.

Speedbleeders for the calipers really make it easy and only cost $20 for all 4.
Posted on: 2009/3/28 15:06
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dan0617 Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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I agree with all of the above. My '89 has the standard brakes as well and I wasn't intrerested in converting to J55's or anything. I simply bought slotted rotors (not drilled) from a place on ebay, and I bought Hawk HPS pads. No squeal, less brake dust than I've seen from even standard stock replacement brakes, and the stopping power is so much more increased it is unbelieveable.

Don't forget to bed in the brakes after you install them. I did 6 runs from 65mph to 5mph without completely stopping. Once you are going about 65 floor the brake about as hard as you can till you get down to about 5, but don't completely stop! You will start to feel a little brake fade and see a little brake smoke by the 4th or 5th run. After that, drive around for 15 minutes or so without using the brakes hardly at all (like a cruise up the interstate) to allow them to cool off properly.
Posted on: 2009/3/28 15:35
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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tequilaboy Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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Hey Mick,

I've been using Hawk HP+ pads on 12" rotors since last spring. They do dust and squeal a little, but they are effective. They may be a bit abrasive when cold, but no issues with the friction.

I'm not sure how long they will last, but I intend to buy another set.
Posted on: 2009/3/28 16:04
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mseven Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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Thanks to all for the responses, it is appreciatted,
Looks hawks are goin in...I am fine w/using stock rotors or replacing w/stock if needed. It's good to know the slotted stuff is not needed for my application.I can also get NOS for about 20 each, if they end up looking trashed.
I currently have some earl's speed bleeders and they work good. About the castrol, is the valvoline syn not considered good anymore ? I have about 3-4 quarts of it left, and I have always kept the fluid clean and clear.
Is the castrol to have higher dot rating or?
I wil also consider ss or the black ss russel lines. especially if they prove to have any cracks.

Everyone states about the seat in on the pads, is it that wild of a recommend from the mfg.?
Posted on: 2009/3/28 21:56
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dan0617 Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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Hawk recommends something similar to what I described above for breaking in or "bedding" the pads. Not exactly but very similar if I remember correctly.
Posted on: 2009/3/28 22:04
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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pianoguy Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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I used Valvoline DOT 4 fluid when I flushed mine. The brakes feel great now.

The bedding thing is a recommendation from the manufacturer - it's real easy and doesn't take long.
Posted on: 2009/3/28 22:20
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bogus Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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Mick,

One of the best things you can do is upgrade to 13" rotors. They are so much stronger and dissipate heat sooooo much better than the stock 12" rotors. The thing is, what year is your Vette?

I agree, drilled are useless. Same with slotted, really.
Posted on: 2009/3/29 0:07
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BillH Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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Quote:

tequilaboy wrote:
Hey Mick,

I've been using Hawk HP+ pads on 12" rotors since last spring. They do dust and squeal a little, but they are effective. They may be a bit abrasive when cold, but no issues with the friction.

I'm not sure how long they will last, but I intend to buy another set.


Yep, that's why Hawk doesn't recommend HP+ for the street.
Not because they won't work well but because some drivers won't like the dust/squeal.
If they work for you, that's good.
They do have a little higher temp operating range that the HPS but not that much.
Posted on: 2009/3/29 13:49
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BillH Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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Quote:

mseven wrote:
Thanks to all for the responses, it is appreciatted,
Looks hawks are goin in...I am fine w/using stock rotors or replacing w/stock if needed. It's good to know the slotted stuff is not needed for my application.I can also get NOS for about 20 each, if they end up looking trashed.
I currently have some earl's speed bleeders and they work good. About the castrol, is the valvoline syn not considered good anymore ? I have about 3-4 quarts of it left, and I have always kept the fluid clean and clear.
Is the castrol to have higher dot rating or?
I wil also consider ss or the black ss russel lines. especially if they prove to have any cracks.

Everyone states about the seat in on the pads, is it that wild of a recommend from the mfg.?


Absolutely nothing wrong with Valvo Sny.
The Castrol LMA is Dot4 but when looking at your fluid choice, you have to look at the boiling points.
LMA is 311 degrees wet and 44r dry. I don't have the Valvo specs in front of me.

LMA is on the low side of temps for track applications but will work fine on the street. I use LMA in the lighter weight racercars. Valvoline will work just as good on the street - CoinFlip
Posted on: 2009/3/29 13:57
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BillH Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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Quote:

mseven wrote:
Everyone states about the seat in on the pads, is it that wild of a recommend from the mfg.?


Yep, it's necessary especially to get the most out of your pads. Will they work wothout doing this - Yes. Will they fade in a panic stop - Quite possible.

What you're doing in the bedding process is putting a layer of pad material on the discs. This is even more important when changing pad types. Your pads work abrasviely when brand new and somewhat when ice cold.
Bedding in the pads puts this transfer layer on the discs. This adherent layer will greatly reduce brake fade and actually reduces rotor wear. The only way to get this adherent layer on is to bed the pads properly.

Hawk street pads will have the bedding process on the outside of the box. They're race pads come with a bright orange set of instructions in the box (they think it's that important).

This is easy to do. 10 runs from 60mph down to 10 mph with the brake pedal force at 80-90% of lockup. The runs should be done back to back without letting the pads cool much. Then drive 10 munutes or so to let the pads cool down.

I tend to breakin pads like racepads with the first 2 runs at 50% pedal application to slowly warm them up. And do the 10th run at 100% pedal. I also make sure the rotors are fairly cool before I park the car.
Posted on: 2009/3/29 14:38
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CentralCoaster Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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I researched irotors a few months ago, and couldn't find much criticism. I guess if you insist on drilled rotors, then they're not a bad place to get em.

But the entire point of drilled rotors is to make the car "look racy". My question is, if race cars don't use em, then why do they look racy to you? If you were installing a spoiler for looks or a racing seat for looks, then I could at least see your reasoning.

Anyhow, the slots will give you all the extra bite of drilled but without the cracking or loss of mass and surface area.
Posted on: 2009/3/29 16:24
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CentralCoaster Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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Quote:

BillH wrote:

This is easy to do. 10 runs from 60mph down to 10 mph with the brake pedal force at 80-90% of lockup. The runs should be done back to back without letting the pads cool much. Then drive 10 munutes or so to let the pads cool down.

I tend to breakin pads like racepads with the first 2 runs at 50% pedal application to slowly warm them up. And do the 10th run at 100% pedal. I also make sure the rotors are fairly cool before I park the car.


Yes, and let me reiterate, DO NOT COME TO A COMPLETE STOP. Find a place where you can either let the car coast awhile for them to cool before stopping, or else a place where you can get home without any stoplights.

On my 85 I even used the parking brake to drive home to avoid using the front brakes.

If you come to a complete stop on hot brakes you can heat check the rotor. If it doesn't damage them it will at least make them look terrible. Heat checking on my wilwoods left pad marks for a long time before they finally wore past.
Posted on: 2009/3/29 16:34
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dan0617 Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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Quote:

CentralCoaster wrote:

Yes, and let me reiterate, DO NOT COME TO A COMPLETE STOP. Find a place where you can either let the car coast awhile for them to cool before stopping, or else a place where you can get home without any stoplights.

On my 85 I even used the parking brake to drive home to avoid using the front brakes.

If you come to a complete stop on hot brakes you can heat check the rotor. If it doesn't damage them it will at least make them look terrible. Heat checking on my wilwoods left pad marks for a long time before they finally wore past.


Heat checking the rotor will cause a hard spot, then as the rotor wears a little the hard spot will wear less than the rest of the rotor, causing a vibration when on the brakes. Alot of people mistake this for a warped rotor, when in fact it is just the hard spot not wearing as fast as the rest of the rotor. If the heat check spot is bad and deep enough turning the rotor is worthless, you will need to replace the rotor. I have done this twice myself, till I found the proper way of bedding rotors and brakes. All companies should put these instructions in with new pads. I had no idea I was screwing up till several years back when I discovered the method of bedding brakes.
Posted on: 2009/3/29 17:55
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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mseven Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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once again thanks to all who posted, quite a bit of good info/advice.
Bill,
understood on bedding/break in. That is a bit different than "normal" and that is why I asked. I will look at some numbers of the fluid as well. As to rotors, I didn't realize there would stress/cracking issues with drilled rotors. (also in my comment to C.C.)

Andy,
I considered the upgrade, but I would need to take a longer look. Not only the bucks involved, but how much I would need to cut on the calipers to clear the 15" welds. As you may know I am not an auto x guy, (or a want to be on the e-ways). Some of things I do w/tuning (various iac controls, pulse width decay, timing etc.etc.)actually allows the car to stop normally, w/out any pulling, stall/surge etc.. Because I do not need to buy today I am going to take a look at it.

Central C.
It was always my understanding in the past when developing heat sinks etc. that allowing more surface area will increase heat disappation. That, and if the price was close was really the only thing that had me ask.
"Racy look"....I like that, I know many are about that kind of stuff. For me, No, actually I am into functional, low porfile understated, and clean look. Thanks though for empasisizing the importance, and the other results of brake bedding.
Posted on: 2009/3/29 17:58
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Mekanic Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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J55 + slotted cryo rotors + Hawk HPS pads + SS Lines = passenger ejection system
Posted on: 2009/3/29 19:26
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bogus Re: Pads, Rotors et all
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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Quote:

CentralCoaster wrote:
I researched irotors a few months ago, and couldn't find much criticism. I guess if you insist on drilled rotors, then they're not a bad place to get em.

But the entire point of drilled rotors is to make the car "look racy". My question is, if race cars don't use em, then why do they look racy to you? If you were installing a spoiler for looks or a racing seat for looks, then I could at least see your reasoning.

Anyhow, the slots will give you all the extra bite of drilled but without the cracking or loss of mass and surface area.


What is interesting is that top level race cars DO use drilled rotors. However, theirs are carbon fibre and cost $5k a set.

The theory behind drilled rotors is to exhaust the gases generated by heat when stopping. The problem is, 95% of street cars brakes never get hot enough to off gas, and since modern street pads don't use glues to bind the pad material together, the gases don't generate as much anyway. It's all marketing hocus-pocus. Modern pads are made of various powders, pressed together at some 5000 PSI or something silly like that.

Now, when you are getting consistant 1800F rotor temps, then you need something... and F1 brakes do just that, deal with 1800F rotor temps. The holes, for them, do a number of things - vent the gases, cheese grate the pad surface to keep it from glazing and allow a place for more air to flow to help cool the rotor surface.

Then again, the composition of the F1 brake pads is top secret anyway...

NASCAR teams are moving away from drilled. I noticed today that the Alcon system being used by JGR racing is simply slotted. I would imagine that gives much of the same result without the weakness concerns.

In general, the composition of racing pads is significantly different. I have no idea what is what when it comes to manufacture...
Posted on: 2009/3/29 20:31
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CentralCoaster Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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Well, the drilling reduces rotating weight, which is why it's done on bikes. Nascar uses cast iron rotors, and I don't recall seeing drilled ones used anytime recently.

Whether they use drilled or not, race cars throw their rotors in the garbage after 500 miles.
Posted on: 2009/3/29 22:57
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CentralCoaster Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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Quote:

mseven wrote:

It was always my understanding in the past when developing heat sinks etc. that allowing more surface area will increase heat disappation.


Well, after the rotor has reached max temp, heat dissipation is going to equal whatever amount of energy the car puts into em.

And it puts that energy into the rotor via the pads. If you decrease friction surface area, you have to increase the temperature difference to scrub off the same amount of energy.

Hotter pads = greater chance of fade or boiling.
Posted on: 2009/3/29 23:15
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BillH Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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Quote:

CentralCoaster wrote:

Yes, and let me reiterate, DO NOT COME TO A COMPLETE STOP. Find a place where you can either let the car coast awhile for them to cool before stopping, or else a place where you can get home without any stoplights.

On my 85 I even used the parking brake to drive home to avoid using the front brakes.

If you come to a complete stop on hot brakes you can heat check the rotor. If it doesn't damage them it will at least make them look terrible. Heat checking on my wilwoods left pad marks for a long time before they finally wore past.


Yep, don't stop. That's why most vendor's instructions say 60mph down to 10 mph.
We do even more at the racetrack. I usually take my car and bed in 3 sets of pads on the first test day so I have them in the trailer. When the car comes in from the cooldown lap, it immeadiately goes up in the air. We walk by the wheels and spin then a quarter turn until the rotors get close to ambient.

The heat checking that CC & Dan mentioned can easily happen. One other thing that happens with a hot rotor that sits for a while (longer than a traffic light)is that some of the adherent layer on the rotor will stick to the pad so, the next time the rotor spins, the adherent layer has a different thickness at that spot. The difference in thickness causes the pedal vibration and the difference takes quite a while to wear down because street brakes aren't used very hard.
Posted on: 2009/3/30 13:46
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BillH Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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Quote:

CentralCoaster wrote:
Well, the drilling reduces rotating weight, which is why it's done on bikes. Nascar uses cast iron rotors, and I don't recall seeing drilled ones used anytime recently.

Whether they use drilled or not, race cars throw their rotors in the garbage after 500 miles.


Absolutely, along with what Andy said, drilled rotors have been around since the 60's.
The whole point is that they're throwaway items at the racetrack.

Now, if I could get 500 miles out of a set of race slicks, I'd be happy.
Posted on: 2009/3/30 13:52
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mseven Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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This is what I ended up doing, hawk hps pads, nos rear rotors, aftermarket fronts, and earl's lines (already had earl's bleeders). As soon as I get the rubber back on the rims I'll know more.
thanks to all for the suggestions and info.......Mick
[IMG]http://i42.tinypic.com/2mcztyw.jpg[/IMG]
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Posted on: 2009/4/5 4:24
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bogus Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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looks great!!!
Posted on: 2009/4/5 5:18
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BillH Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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Very nice.

Crap now I have to clean mine up.
Posted on: 2009/4/5 12:57
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Josh Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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Good God man. Way to make me feel like a slacker about how my car looks.

Seriously clean car Mick, kinda gives us all something to shoot for.
Posted on: 2009/4/6 12:38
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mseven Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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thanks for the compliments, it is appreciatted. Mick
Posted on: 2009/4/7 13:31
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SpectatorRacing Re: Pads, Rotors et all
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I'm a little late to the party, but it looks like you bought exactly what I would have recommended - flat rotors with HPS pads. I had the HP+ on the M3 and they sucked. You're much better off with the HPS.

Oh, and heat checking creates soft spots on the rotor, but the end result is as described.

If you guys think Mick's car looks nice, check out this for show quality!!

Attach file:



jpg  Slotted rotor.jpg (0.00 KB)

Posted on: 2009/4/8 17:41
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