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Eagle223usa Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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So Anyone done one? I had mine done about 6k miles ago. Put in a Centerforce dual friction. Tonight I was rolling down Rt88 headed home after dinner with the wife. We were cruising at about 20 mph when I went to shift up to third gear and heard a pop. The pedal went slack and I have no clutch.The slave then dumped the hydralic fluid onto the hot exhaust causing alot of smoke. Took 3 hrs. to get towed two miles home. Does anyone make a good clutch for our cars? Sorry if I sound like I'm rambling it's been a tough nite. Thanks. Goodnight.
Posted on: 2010/6/27 6:15
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Calm Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6? OR why I think Centerforce SUCKS!
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Sounds like you lost your hydraulics, not your clutch.

Centerforce is a stable product and yours should still be fine......once you get your slave and/or hyd. lines replaced.

Which is good news because it's alot simpler (and cheaper) to repair the hyd. system than the clutch assy.
Posted on: 2010/6/27 6:21
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Eagle223usa Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6? OR why I think Centerforce SUCKS!
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Hey Calm, Thanks for the repley. No, I'm pretty sure by the noise the pressure plate came apart. The slave went when I was trying to get off the road. It was still in gear and moving but I could hear stuff moving around in there, I might skip church and tear into her today. Thanks for the optimism.
Posted on: 2010/6/27 12:09
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CentralCoaster Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6? OR why I think Centerforce SUCKS!
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If you lost pedal and heard noises in the bellhousing it might be a throwout bearing failure or fork/pivot failure. Either require pulling the trans. This doesn't explain the loss of fluid though. Did the clutch ever increase in resistance? Without a fork or throwout bearing in place, a few pumps then a hard push on the clutch pedal will blow the retainer clip out and blow the guts and fluid out. And it wouldn't take much force if the reatainer clip is corroded.

Pull the slave cylinder first and see if its intact, then check the depth of the fork end inside the bellhousing and see if it moves in by hand. Take a picture of it actually and post here.

I think the centerforce is just a modified oem type pressure plate with different clutch materials. I'm not sure if their throwout bearing is any better than stock, but the stock ones are garbage.
Posted on: 2010/6/27 17:01
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bogus Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6? OR why I think Centerforce SUCKS!
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I think you will find the truth once you stick your head into the bell housing.

I lean towards hydraulic failure... unless it was a newer part. The newer NAPA slave is very good.

The hose failing is disturbing, tho. Did the clutch fail, causing too much pressure to go through? If so, why didn't it just bleed out the sides of the slave?
Posted on: 2010/6/27 18:13
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Calm Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6? OR why I think Centerforce SUCKS!
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Well Eagle, I sure HOPE you don't have to go into the clutch!

What did you find?
Posted on: 2010/6/27 18:17
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jhammons01 Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6? OR why I think Centerforce SUCKS!
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^^Zactly............

OP, I just went through this and let me tell you what I found.

There is a good chance that the TO Bearing may not have been put on the fork properly. Yes, it can slip off if it not on just right. It is hard to explain over the web....or even in person...but once you "see" it, you'd understand completely.

As CC said....a couple of pumps by you....and with nothing pushing the Slave cylinder piston back up into the Slave.....it soon reaches the limits....then one more pump and the thing shoots out with fluid flowing.....You were sort of panicked as all this was occuring and you were trying to grab a gear and get off the road or back up and running...and you pumped it.......this explains the fluid.

This whole thing sux ass as it is a big job to get to that TO Bearing or fork.....but I think that is where you'll find your trouble.

The Clutch itself is most likely fine.

The point I am trying to make, that clutch fork is deceiving to the inexperienced amongst us. So much so that the tranny shop I talked to said "Most people do 'X' wrong"........and I did "X" wrong......just like they said I would....Your Mechanic could have made a mistake whereas it held for just a while and then fell off. The pivot ball could have come loose....the fork could have come off the pivot ball.....the TO Bearing could have fallen off the fork.....A whole slew of things are possible. But since you say it happened with a "pop"......it is more likely to be the things I listed rather than the clutch......A clutch failing is a whole lot of other symptoms.

Seriously, I feel for you as I "just" went through this crap...I put it all back together just to have to pull it all apart yet again....and on mine....it takes the better part of a day to get the tranny on the floor. So two days to do it "wrong" then 3 weeks later two more days to redo it correctly.

That being said, I think once your tranny is on the ground and you can see inside the bell housing, your problem will be revealed and you may not have to even take the Bell Housing off the motor....leaving the clutch in place and just addressing your hydraulics or TO Bearing assembly.
Posted on: 2010/6/27 18:26
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BrianCunningham Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6? OR why I think Centerforce SUCKS!
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It's all just guess work until it's taken apart

post up what you find.

sorry to hear.
Posted on: 2010/6/27 19:16
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Eagle223usa Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6?
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Well, I found a blown out hydralic line going to the slave. Can someone please explain what the TO bearing should look like? There is nothing on the fork at all. Two "spacers behind it some stuff and a spring washer in front of it. Dosen't look like any TO bearing I've ever seen on an F body. Thanks for all the replies. BTW, the centerforce logo was over a stamping that say's "Valeo" Any one still have directions for setting up the TO bearing? Thanks for all replies! Headed back out to the garage for a while.
Posted on: 2010/6/28 1:31
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Eagle223usa Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6?
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Ok, looked again and it appears the fork slipped off the throwout bearing. The TO bearing will be ordered in the morning, should I get a new fork? It doesn't look very worn. I also need to figure out how to get the TO off the pressure plate. Thanks again Guys! Ps, the clutch looks good.
Posted on: 2010/6/28 2:05
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jhammons01 Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6?
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did you see it through the rubber boot that covers the slave inlet or did you get the tranny out already???

The Fork and pivot ball all have inspection criteria...I'd look at that criteria prior to ordering....

You may have just gotten a bad TO Bearing that came apart prematurely.

I got your PM....I'm glad "We" could all help....I know half as much as CC...and when I am in your shoes...I call him...

So we are all paying it forward
Posted on: 2010/6/28 3:39
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anesthes Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6? OR why I think Centerforce SUCKS!
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Quote:

Eagle223usa wrote:
No, I'm pretty sure by the noise the pressure plate came apart.


You would be able to tell that one really quick, since your feet would be missing.

-- Joe
Posted on: 2010/6/28 11:21
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CentralCoaster Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6?
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Check the throwout bearing for damage. It is basically a sandwich of two flanges and a collar, and has this stupidly thin metal core folded over the end and holds it all together. If it stretches the sandwich loosens up and can let the fork slip off.

To remove the fork, pull the pivot stud, you have to turn it clockwise to loosen it into the bellhousing. 12mm hex I think. Some cars require pulling the bellhousing to get the fork off the t/o bearing.

The clutch line could have went after the slave bottomed out and the pressure had nowhere to go.
Posted on: 2010/6/28 11:46
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CentralCoaster Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6?
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I recall the bearing installs from the front side of the pressure plate and is held on with a clip. The pressure plate has to come off to get to it.
Posted on: 2010/6/28 11:48
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CentralCoaster Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6?
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I'm not a fan of these modified ZF pressure plates because anything that increases the clamping force also increases the load on that shitty bearing. They call it a throw out bearing because it belongs in the garbage.
Posted on: 2010/6/28 11:51
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Eagle223usa Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6?
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Thanks CC, I got a call in to Centerforce Tech. But they are like 6hrs behind us. The TO bearing appears to be manufactured right into the pressure plate. Meaning I'm not sure it's replacable. I've never seen a clutch like this. The speed shop put it in as I had no place to do it. So I don't know what it's supposed to look like. I'll try to get a pic. Thanks again Guys.
Posted on: 2010/6/28 14:48
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Eagle223usa Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6?
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If I have to replace this set up is there a better one?
Posted on: 2010/6/28 14:50
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BrianCunningham Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6?
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What's been done to your car?

If it's not heavily modified, the stock setup is fine, just a little pricey.
Posted on: 2010/6/28 16:41
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Eagle223usa Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6?
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I edited this to remove the phrase "Why I think Centerforce SUCKS." Well after speaking with them on the phone I would like to add THEY DO SUCK. Talked to them and explained my problem, Roger, I think his name was tells me my part must be out of warranty because we haven't sold one since Aug of 09. Tried to get just a TO bearing and he states "No we don't sell like that, We don't even make that part, we buy it." When I asked where I could get one he says "GM". Told him I tried there first and it's discontinued he says "Too Bad, can't help you" He wanted me to buy a new clutch kit for $676. I think centerforce has seen the last of my business. At this point, no hose, no TO bearing and no hope in sight. Anyone know of a ZF6 Vette in a scrapyard somewhere? Maybe I'll try Ebay.
Posted on: 2010/6/28 17:40
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Eagle223usa Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6?
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Update, Classic Tube in Lancaster NY will make a replacement clutch hydralic line for $100. Still no luck on a TO bearing.
Posted on: 2010/6/28 18:34
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bogus Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6?
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damn... check www.ramclutches.com. They seem to have a lot of options.

sucks that Centerforce is being so ignorant.
Posted on: 2010/6/28 19:04
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CentralCoaster Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6?
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AC Delco is the only one that has the throwout bearing listed as a seperate part number. "Clutch release bearing" but it's almost half the cost of the entire clutch set.

Unless someone is willing to do you a favor, everyone else packages it with the clutch set.

Make sure you get the correct one. The 89-early94 is slightly larger on the inside, and metal. #CT1073
or GM #10203567

The late94-96 (blue tag ZF) has a plastic liner in the bearing. #CT1090 or GM #10222087

http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/stock_check.php

Rockauto used to have them listed, but not any more.

Fixed the title for you btw.
Posted on: 2010/6/28 20:51
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CentralCoaster Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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Any hydraulic hose shop should be able to build you a new clutch line using your old one.

I got a used one from vette2vette I think, or maybe it was Dino's corvette salvage. It was teflon with stainless braiding, which I've heard was only used on ZR1s, but never confirmed.
Posted on: 2010/6/28 20:54
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bogus Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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no, my 92 uses the same line, teflon with ss braiding.
Posted on: 2010/6/28 21:23
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Calm Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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Quote:

bogus wrote:
no, my 92 uses the same line, teflon with ss braiding.


Same as on my '95.
Posted on: 2010/6/28 22:57
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BrianCunningham Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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Posted on: 2010/6/28 23:58
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BrianCunningham Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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Posted on: 2010/6/29 0:00
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Josh Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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I think your problems are probably install related as opposed to component related. It sounds to me like the fork was never fully seated on the TO bearing.

Regardless, I have stock pressure plate if you want it. I'm in Baltimore, you can drive down and pick it up, or I'll ship it to you if you catch the shipping. It's got the TO bearing on it, so you can work on swapping TO bearings, or use it if you go back to stock.
Posted on: 2010/6/29 1:15
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Eagle223usa Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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Thanks for all the help Guys. I managed to track down the actual manufacturer of the pressure plate and TO. Entering into negotiations for purchase. Thanks Josh, That doesn't sound like a bad idea. My car is mostly stock. I just wanted a really good clutch in it last time. The stocker was just worn out. I did keep my DM flywheel. I realyy do appreciatte all the help and advice. You guys and this site is a goldmine of info.
Posted on: 2010/6/29 15:31
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SpectatorRacing Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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IF your deal falls through, I recommend Carolina Clutch. I'm on about my 5th year of racing with one of their parts. I have a "stage 3" which is probably unecessary for you, and if I remember correctly it was about $300. That doesn't include a pressure plate, though.

I had it apart this spring with the motor rebuild and it's in great shape...I just got a new disc for my flywheel and put it back together.
Posted on: 2010/6/29 22:46
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bogus Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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Did you know that SPEC provides clutches to Carolina for Corvettes?

As an aside, Valeo is the ONLY maker of pressure plates for the ZF6 Corvettes. Period. End of story. All brands tweek or remake them in some way.
Posted on: 2010/6/29 23:06
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SpectatorRacing Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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Quote:

bogus wrote:
Did you know that SPEC provides clutches to Carolina for Corvettes?

As an aside, Valeo is the ONLY maker of pressure plates for the ZF6 Corvettes. Period. End of story. All brands tweek or remake them in some way.


Interesting. I did not know that. I guess that's why it's held up.

As for the pressure plates, you're wrong. Fidanza makes a nice piece ;)
Posted on: 2010/6/30 13:13
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CentralCoaster Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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Here's a pic of Fidanza's setup. So I'd really like to know how this fits a ZF...

Resized Image
Posted on: 2010/6/30 16:45
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SpectatorRacing Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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Quote:

CentralCoaster wrote:
Here's a pic of Fidanza's setup. So I'd really like to know how this fits a ZF...


Kevin what do you mean?

I have a Fidanza flywheel and Carolina (apparently SPEC) system with my ZF. Looks exactly like that. Well...my throwout bearing does not have a blue ring.

Attach file:



jpg  Rebuild 009.jpg (0.00 KB)

Posted on: 2010/6/30 16:57
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Josh Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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Look again, the pic above is a push style clutch. Yours is a pull. That is also a valeo pressure plate in your picture.

In order to convert to the push style you install a hydraulic TO bearing to actuate the pressure plate and release the clutch. The only change you have to make is to remove the slave cylinder and get a new pressure line made to go between the master cylinder and hydraulic TO bearing.

Eventually, the extra pressure will smoke the seal in the stock master. Converting the metal master offered from McLeod will cure this issue. (I don't know if the master is still available, the last time I bought one was a few years ago before B&M bought McLeod)
Posted on: 2010/6/30 21:17
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Josh Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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The fidanza set up, as pictured, will not work with our cars. Like I said though, swapping the slave for a hydraulic throw out bearing will make that fidanza set up work in our cars.
Posted on: 2010/6/30 21:18
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Josh Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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Also, if you are using that set up with the dual mass, you are double dampening the drive train with the internal spring in the flywheel, and the springs in the clutch disc.

I've never seen that done before, but it seems like it would be a great thing for drive train longevity.
Posted on: 2010/6/30 21:20
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SpectatorRacing Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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Ahhh yes, I didn't even notice that. I wonder if the fidanza set up is simply a stock photo, not the actual C4 kit. This is certainly common.
Posted on: 2010/6/30 21:56
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movnviolation Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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Recently had my t/o bearing come apart on my 89 with only 5k on clutch kit and new dm flywheel. Ordered a delco t/o bearing through a friends shop and it still cost me $125.00.
The delco when compared to the Chinese one is visibly heavier materals. That is a lot of work to put cheap parts back in!
On the other hand because of the t/o bearing, I pulled the motor and modded the hell out of it. Wife still is not understandin how that little part can cause all that.
Posted on: 2010/7/1 4:32
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CentralCoaster Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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Quote:

SpectatorRacing wrote:
Ahhh yes, I didn't even notice that. I wonder if the fidanza set up is simply a stock photo, not the actual C4 kit. This is certainly common.


That was my first thought, but the image filename matches the part number.

But again, that pressure plate you have shown is not made by Fidanza, so the mystery continues...
Posted on: 2010/7/2 2:07
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SpectatorRacing Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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yeah I meant flywheel. The pressure plate came with the friction disc from Carolina. I need to proofread my posts to avoid confusing people.

Sorry...
Posted on: 2010/7/2 12:31
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SpectatorRacing Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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Posted on: 2010/7/2 12:32
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CentralCoaster Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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Well, we could start a rumor anyways just for fun.
Posted on: 2010/7/2 19:30
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jhammons01 Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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That's what we need....more misinformation....lol
Posted on: 2010/7/3 3:20
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Eagle223usa Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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God's country, Pa
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Well, I got the new TO bearing from Valeo. ALSO made in China. Identical to the one that failed. Great. Clutch and PP look good though.

Attach file:



jpg  TO bearing.jpg (407.99 KB)
757_4c31fa3fba555.jpg 1600X1200 px

jpg  0703101147.jpg Clutch.jpg (789.24 KB)
757_4c31fa6dbf536.jpg 1600X1200 px
Posted on: 2010/7/5 15:30
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Eagle223usa Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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On my last post, 1st pic, the new TO bearing is on the left. Slightly different than the one that came out. I searched for the delco one (CT1090) but it appears it's not available. Looks like I'll put her back together with my chinese wonder for now. I can't seem to find a 12mm hex for the fork. Anyone have a source for one. I will try a search for Gearwrench later. Thanks.
Posted on: 2010/7/5 15:48
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jhammons01 Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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12mm Hex.....are you trying to take out the Pivot Ball from the bell housing?

If so, it may not need to move. Unless it is scared from the TO Bearing...I'd leave it be.

Your Fork just clips on and off of the ball.

If you take the Pivot Ball off, you can replace it with the adjustable pivot Ball

http://www.jegs.com/i/Lakewood/620/15501/10002/-1?CT=999

This widget allows you to set your pedal exaclty where you think it should be.....I can't use one however, due to the fact that there is only about a 32nd if an inch gap in between the bell housing and tranny housing.....how would you "adjust" it??? I'd have to pull the tranny to take advantage of that feature.

Of course I could attach the bell housing and clutch assembly......and test it there......but then I'd have to make a clutch alignment tool that was longer than the plastic one.....If you didn't have that tool.....once you push the clutch in without the tranny...the disk would fall out of alignment and you'd have to take the clutch back apart to realign it.
Posted on: 2010/7/5 17:56
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bogus Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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If I have another problem with the throwout, I am going to say, screw this, and get this:

http://www.ramclutches.com/Specialty%20products/C4_Conversion.htm
Posted on: 2010/7/5 18:30
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Josh Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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Raleigh, NC
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Autozone sells a 3 piece kit of allen keys for $9. There is a 12MM, 14MM, and 17MM in the kit. It works great for us because it has the sizes necessary to R&R the drain/fill plug on the ZF and dink with the pivot ball.
Posted on: 2010/7/5 22:30
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LD85 Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?
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Sorry to read about your struggles,,, I am never surprised at the failures on the ZF....

BTW, Centerforce is a good product and Roger is an OK guy, obviously the C4 market is dwindling and less companies are interested in it...

Regarding the RAM conversion, I have read where 2-3 people were having Hyd-TOB issues on them as well, with the piston popping off..
Posted on: 2010/7/5 23:22
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