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| Try2pas | Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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I have an LS3 with a 4L70E trany, 1 5/8 headers, 2 1/2 exhaust, no cats, and aluminum drive lines. The car was set up without the aid of a dyno. I dynoed it the other day and only got 261 rwhp! It should be at least 360 rwhp. What could be wrong? Also the dyno said it was peaking HP at 5500 and the engine is supposed to peak at 5900. It seems to me the car in second is reving a lot but not going. Wouldn't it have to be either engine tune or the trany is slipping or a screwed up dyno? At Spearfish the other day, which is about 3500' high and it was about 80 or 90 degrees, it ran an 1/8th in 9.10. What gives?
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Posted on: 2010/8/22 17:01
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| 1Fast04Vert | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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That puppy is really sick. Something is bad wrong. I would suggest a good tune.
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Posted on: 2010/8/22 17:18
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| bogus | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
 
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wow. Something is seriously amiss.
Well... if you had a major exhaust leak, you would hear it. Any popping and backfiring? A tune would help, but shit, the LS3 STOCK is putting 430hp out, this thing is sick. Dropped a valve? Blown a head gasket? Cracked intake? Bad fuel delivery? I hazard to guess... I would start with the easy - plugs. If you have a burned or dead plug, that would explain it. |
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Posted on: 2010/8/22 18:35
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| bogus | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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oh, one other thing... I like catatlytic converters. They don't cost much power (10hp, tops, these days) and what they do for clean air is well worth it.
I would advise you never drive that car into SoCal... seriously. |
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Posted on: 2010/8/22 18:36
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Steve40th | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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An LS3 with those mods should be over 400rwhp.
There is definitely something amiss. You have got to get a datalog and retune, especially if there are no codes. Check under the valve covers. Just did an LS6 yesterday and the valve spring was broke on different valves, yet no codes. |
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Posted on: 2010/8/22 19:30
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| Matatk | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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What car is this in? Is it a motor swap? What else was done to it? You said it was set up without a dyno, so I'm assuming there is some major work done?
Matthew |
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Posted on: 2010/8/22 19:43
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| tjpreul | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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I'm not sure how the car is set up. Without the cats how are the O2 sensors placed? I've seen people remove or punch out the cats. Which causes a lack of power due to the O2 sensor readings.
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Posted on: 2010/8/22 19:55
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| BrianCunningham | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Quote:
that's what I'm thinking as well. |
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Posted on: 2010/8/22 20:23
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| pianoguy | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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It's in an '80 Corvette - my neck is still sore from when my head swiveled to take another look!  |
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Posted on: 2010/8/22 21:06
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| tjpreul | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Quote:
Does it have a carb conversion, or is it still fuel injected? |
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Posted on: 2010/8/22 21:38
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| pianoguy | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Fuel injected. Looks like the factory put it there. |
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Posted on: 2010/8/22 21:40
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1996 LT4 �Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.�- Jack Handey |
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| 383tpimachine | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Datalog will tell us whats happening. sounds like something is REALLY a miss. some tune only c6 ls3 vettes are making 400rwhp
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Posted on: 2010/8/22 21:55
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| bogus | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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I will bet the O2 is the issue.
Damn... all the parts where there and I missed it! Now... codes... does it present a check engine light or do you have to read the codes manually? Without a tune, the rear O2s will be looking for the effect of the cats working. Without that change, all hell breaks loose. |
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Posted on: 2010/8/22 22:16
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Try2pas | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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I didn't realize cats were "good" for the enviroment, really. I thought they were another BS government idea that in the real world hurt more than they helped.
Can the computer, that's running the show, shed light on what is wrong with it's data record? I didn't quite understand how the O2 sensors might have been tricked. I think that is where I will start looking for the lost power. Any more feedback on that and what the computer can and can't tell us? |
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Posted on: 2010/8/26 1:35
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| Jeffvette | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Doesn't matter with cats or without. The car senses how rich or lean based on the pre cat O2. The post cat O2 is to measure how efficient the cat is and that it is still working properly. I agree he is down on power. But the airbox could be choking it down, the exhaust is another point of contention, along with the elevation in MT. How and where was the car tuned? |
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Posted on: 2010/8/26 5:16
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| bogus | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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cats are actually good... and modern ones are very effective at helping.
Good additional points, Jeff. |
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Posted on: 2010/8/26 7:51
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Try2pas | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Street and Performance in Mena Ar. put the engine in for me and tuned it there without the benefit of a dyno. The elevation there I think was around 1000 feet and I had it dynoed in Spokane Wa. where the elevation is about 2,000. I live in Montana at 2,400. So there is a datalog, if you can get into the computer, and it shows what is wrong(codes)and what is going on? And there should be o2 sensors in the rear exhaust pipes as well as just behind the air intake filter?
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Posted on: 2010/8/26 14:15
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| pianoguy | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Normally there are O2 sensors after the headers or exhaust manifolds, but before the cats, and another sensor after the cats. The rear sensors just report back on the efficiency of the cats, and can be programmed out.
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Posted on: 2010/8/26 14:34
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1996 LT4 �Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.�- Jack Handey |
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| Jeffvette | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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So they installed this package, and it sounds like they did not install a CEL to alert you if there are any problems with the motor? Did they even mount the ALDL port in an accessible location? Go back to Spokane and pay somebody to retune the car. |
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Posted on: 2010/8/26 14:53
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| Try2pas | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Street and Performance I thought did an outstanding job of putting the engine in. It was far from easy. It looks like it came that way from the factory! They did put in a port to hook a computer to just under the dash. I don't know of anything else like the CEL you refered to. I pushed them to get the car done on my time schedule and I think it was probably hurried out the door. What I don't understand is that the guy in Spokane can't access the computer in the car. It's locked up so we can't get in I guess. I'd love to take it back to S & P but they are 2,000 miles away. I think you are right; take it back to Spokane which is only 125 miles and they have a dyno which seems to me to be the best way to tune any car.
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Posted on: 2010/8/26 19:32
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| pianoguy | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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CEL=Check Engine Light - if any codes are being thrown by the system, this light comes on. I'm guessing they didn't provide one as part of the install.
Accessing the car's computer would involve getting a special cable to connect to the port under the dash, and hooking that to a laptop equipped with tuning and diagnostic software. I'm wondering if it is just stuck in open loop or something - maybe just a bum connection or bad sensor somewhere. |
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Posted on: 2010/8/26 20:05
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1996 LT4 �Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.�- Jack Handey |
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| Jeffvette | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Quote:
The computer is locked up because S&P locked the tune in place so you can not read the ECM. Which is a big douche thing to do. Never trust a tuner who locks. The shop in Spokane should have been able to hook up to the aldl with a tech 2 or similar scan tool to see the engine functions and codes. And put a red indicator light in the dash for a trouble light. |
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Posted on: 2010/8/26 21:46
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| Josh | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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You said that it feels like it is revving but not going anywhere, is it possible the trans or converter is slipping? That would be my guess.
I'm from Libby, MT. Don't see too many cats on here from my home state. |
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Posted on: 2010/8/27 1:47
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| Josh | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Also, there is a great speed shop in Calgary called Davenport Performance (or maybe it was Davenport Motor sports). My parents have had some work done there (Vortech on Mom's 02 WS6, a couple things to my father's 91 ZR1) and they are top notch for sure.
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Posted on: 2010/8/27 1:51
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| Try2pas | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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So does having a dyno to tune really, really help you tune the engine and auto trany or just a little better than playing with the laptop to adjust timing, fuel, shift points etc.? There are so few dynos around that probably most people tune the engine/trany without the use of a dyno and get it 90-95% right or something?
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Posted on: 2010/8/29 3:15
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| bogus | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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tuning without a dyno can be done. There is a ton of data out there that will allow you to get REAL close without the benefit of a dyno...
BUT... the best work is done with a dyno. I would find a good shop with a dyno to make this thing right. |
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Posted on: 2010/8/29 8:24
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Try2pas | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Thanks for all the information on what could be wrong with my DOWN 100 HP. I have been gone for a month and am now going to try and get it fixed and will let this site know what is/was wrong and what we had to do to get it right!
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Posted on: 2010/9/26 17:22
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| cuisinartvette | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Datalog and get some real feedback about what its doing at all conditions.
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Posted on: 2010/9/26 17:33
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| pianoguy | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Best of luck - hope you get it sorted out soon!
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Posted on: 2010/9/26 21:49
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1996 LT4 �Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.�- Jack Handey |
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| Try2pas | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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I finally got another dyno done on my car and it was a Mustang dyno. Now only 232rwhp! Sent the data to Street and performance and they sent me a new computer to install. Also they said they use "LS 1 Edit" programer which automatically locks the computer so you can't go back in and change anything. I guess that is way it is preprogramed from the maker of "LS 1 edit". The new computer says for a 411 rear end and mine is a 331 so I may have to send it back and get another one. Waiting to hear. I just wrote Hot Rod Magazine and asked them if there was any difference in a Pontiac GXP LS3, which I have, vs a corvette LS3. Waiting to hear. Vette magazine said the only difference was in exhuast and programing. I hope their right as I have custom headers and a different program (maybe I should have kept the GXP program!). Anyone know if there is a differnce in those two engines?
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Posted on: 2010/10/10 1:48
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| bogus | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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An LS3 is an LS3. The only difference has to be with the exhaust between the 2 cars.
I have to say that something is wrong with the program, big time. I am betting it has everything to do with the way they handled the O2 sensors. It sounds to me like the shop(s) are way in over their heads. |
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Posted on: 2010/10/10 2:08
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Try2pas | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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With a blank CPU the custom tuner, on a Dynojet, programed it and it made 322 rwhp. It is an automatic trany which is about 5% or so less efficient than a stick I understand but it still isn't where I think it should be. Maybe the Pontiac G8 LS3 really isn't the same as a corvette LS3? Maybe the trany is less efficient for some reason. We did change the rear end to a 373 and with "finding" over 60 hp it should wake it up quite a bit!But like most other corvette owners; I always want a little more! HAPPY NEW YEAR!
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Posted on: 2011/1/1 2:41
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| bogus | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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322 rwhp = a nominal 385 crank with a nominal 20% loss for the A4.
It was rated at 415 in the G8. I would say you are still 40hp down. Are you running cats? What did they do if you weren't? |
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Posted on: 2011/1/1 2:52
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Try2pas | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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No, I don't have any cats. 1 3/4 headers with 2 1/2" exhausts with a cross over. One of the magazines said that the 415 G8 hp was due to exhaust and tuning. I don't have the stock exhaust or stock tuning now. My torque curve really improved in this latest tuning however. It is 327 lbs of torque vs the old 317 but at 5400 rpm it is still 306 vs the old 227! That's like almost 80 lbs more torque at 5400 rpm! When I was drag racing last summer at spearfish it just seemed to fade as my rpms built up. I don't think it will now! But I'd still like to find my missing horsepower.
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Posted on: 2011/1/2 0:20
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| bogus | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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I am reiterating something noted above. The OBDII system has 2 O2 sensors per cat, one before, one after.
If the one after doesn't read an expected drop, if not, then it starts to throw codes. What I don't know is how that effects performance. You have found a lot of the lost power, but man, there is a lot more to be found. Are you running the OEM GM engine controller for an LS3? If nothing else, GM might have a stock tune for the eRod that might just help... |
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Posted on: 2011/1/2 1:15
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| RickAnthony | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Just out of curiosity what stall speed and brand converter are you running?
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Posted on: 2011/1/2 7:23
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| bogus | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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that is a good question. And is it locking up?
Oh, and what is a 4L70E? I have heard of the 4L65E and the 4L80E and the 4L85E, but not the 4L70E. |
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Posted on: 2011/1/2 19:04
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Try2pas | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Street & Performance in Mena Ar. put in the trany and called it a 4L70E. I too had never heard of that. I don't know the stall, maybe around 2200 or so. The guy that just tuned it said I should consider a higher stall like 2500 to 3000. The CPU is a "blank" from S & P as the one they set me up with was the 264 rwhp one. Then they sent me another one that didn't work at all and then I asked for a blank one. I did notice that my hp/TQ chart this latest programer gave me seemed to end at 5450 rpm. The LS3 is a 5900 rpm engine. Basically rpm x TQ is hp. I wonder what gives there?
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Posted on: 2011/1/3 3:25
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| RickAnthony | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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I could be wrong, but I think the 4L70E is a name some of the builders use to call their 4L60E's that have upgrades, like the hardend reaction shell, upgraded sprags, 5 pinion plants ect.. I don't think it's used by GM... again could be wrong as I don't know everything about trans's, I just rebuild mine..
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Posted on: 2011/1/3 4:13
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| Steve40th | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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I am going to jump in here.
Any COdes? Get a tuned PCM from a wel known place. Pcmforless, Bryan Herta did a tune for 150 dollars on a friends ZO6. Not to say yours will be the same. But, something is wrong here and you need Datalog info from the dyno runs and have that sent off to a reputeable tuner. |
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Posted on: 2011/1/3 12:46
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Ko'u ohana aia ku'a ikaika |
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| Try2pas | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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My set up doesn't have a CEL. Is that something that can still be put in? How do we get the "codes". Is that done by plugging into the ALDL port with the programing computer and it reads out the codes? And the "datalog". Is that too obtained by plugging into the ALDL port or is the datalog the print out I got when he was done tuning it on the dyno and it shows the HP and TQ in relation to RPM? Also someone said 385 hp at the crank with 322 rwhp. I don't believe that is right. If you are loosing 20% of your power due to trany and driveline losses then 322 rwhp is 80% of your crank hp. So you divide 322 by 80 and you get 402.5 crank hp? And coversly, if you know 402.5hp is your crank hp then your rwhp will be 20% less or 80% of your crank. 80% of 402.5 is 322. But I am still down at least 27.5 crank hp and I have 1 3/4 inch headers and 2 1/2 ich exhaust and no cats so you'd think I would be more than 430 crank hp?
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Posted on: 2011/1/5 3:02
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| bogus | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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I think any good LS3 should have 430hp, and with the exhaust you are running, 10~15 more. It's that simple.
You are down on power, and I don't understand why. Except for the fact you are dealing with ppl who don't know what they are doing? TJ Wong is one of the best tuners I know, he is in the Seattle area. Reach out to him. He is a member here, but doesn't stop in enough. His contact info is: tjwong@qwestoffice.net 360-695-9433 It would be worth it for you to put that Vette on a trailer and send it to Tom. He just know's what he is doing; it's that simple. Besides, it's the dead of winter in Montana, what are you going to use the Vette for? Dodging snow flakes?  I would also have him install an SES. It's not that hard, it's just a single wire from the ECM to a bulb... BFD, but it must be done. |
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Posted on: 2011/1/5 4:38
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Try2pas | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Did anyone see the article in HOT ROD magazine that just came out on DYNOS? It appears to me that to compare two cars you would need to use the SAME dyno with the same proceedures to compare your car to someone elses. In the article they took a Shelby Super Snake with 750 crank hp to five different dyno shops and got between 577 rwhp and 644 rwhp. That's a 67 rwhp difference. I see now that you can use a dyno to see what differences mods make to your car (assuming the proceedures were the same) but to compare numbers with another car on another dyno with possibly different proceedures; it may not be comparing apples to apples.
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Posted on: 2011/1/20 4:14
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| pianoguy | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Yowzahh, that's a big difference!
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Posted on: 2011/1/20 4:20
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1996 LT4 �Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.�- Jack Handey |
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| Steve40th | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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So many things affect a dyno. Think about the simple day at the track. Air, Temp, Tire temps, oil and water temps. So many things can affect a dyno run.
A 700 hp car is going to show differences, more so than a 300 hp car on the same dyno. Dynos are just a tuning tool, and it needs to be tuned and dynod the same day to see gain or loss. |
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Posted on: 2011/1/20 4:23
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| bogus | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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This is just a glancing blow at the subject, but, for an SAE certified CHP rating, the engine dyno cell must be cooled... Ford uses Lake Huron. Doesn't that tell you something? Their engine dyno is cooled with waters from a lake. I raced RC cars for many years. I stll have most of my stuff. One piece I have is a Competition Electronics Turbo 30 dyno. To get the best results, run the test 3 times, and average the last number of the 5 given. Each test generates 5 numbers, at different amp loads. Using the highest amp load, average them. It helps take heat soak into consideration. It's time take the car out to the nearest drag strip and run the bitch. Seriously. Get some ET's. From there, we will be able to tell if there is or isn't a problem. One final thought... I wonder if the TC is locking up... are you testing in D or 3? |
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Posted on: 2011/1/20 9:37
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| flyboy | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Interesting article. This sentence at the end may apply to where you're at now. "In the end, you don't care what the numbers say as long as you can get consistent results from test to test". I'm no expert, but with your new tune and new found power, maybe you need some track numbers and go from there. |
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Posted on: 2011/1/20 13:07
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| Try2pas | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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I think I know what happened and why I was down on HP. When I picked up the car they had programed in the wrong rear end ratio in the trany computer, I later found out. I think they also forgot to plug in advancing engine timing in the engine computer. Now I have the correct engine computer and trany computer and it runs great! I am still down a few hp on the dyno but I learned from all this that you can't really compare one dyno and a car to another dyno and another car. All comparisons need to be made on the same dyno run the same way. So it never was engine or trany issues but rather PROGRAMING ISSUES.
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Posted on: 2011/5/28 23:23
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| bogus | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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Excellent! That's great news!
And yes, dyno's very... from same to same and from brand to brand. Sometimes, it's calibration, other times, it's the methods used. To put it into perspective, to keep the dyno's cool for the major automakers, and to make the numbers consistant and repeatable, their engine dyno's are - get this - cooled with river water!!! |
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Posted on: 2011/5/28 23:54
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Matatk | Re: Down 100 rwhp . | ||
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Glad to hear you worked it out! That was a long and I'm sure painful process.
Matthew |
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Posted on: 2011/5/29 12:10
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