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The automatic from 1992-1993. The same as the 700R4, just has a different name.

Either way, they are junk. There are some minor differences on a ...
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bogus Guess What!!!
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
20859 Posts
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I have been perminantly banned from CF!

Ain't that grand?
Posted on: 2007/12/21 0:25
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NC Kid RE:Guess What!!!
Elite Guru
North Carolina
1671 Posts
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Best news I have yeard yet. Whatcha do wrong? IP ban? Who banned you? Going to get a new name??? For as long as you have been there and with a noodle with knowledge, that's kinda odd. Normally it's the misfits that get pissed away at. You of all peeps though. Dang...
Posted on: 2007/12/21 1:11
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CSS996 RE:Guess What!!!
Mega Guru
Central PA
3644 Posts
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Congrats!

I've been tossed off a dirtbike forum. I felt like I had been punched in the gut by a good friend.

Just remember that we truly appreciate you and we're here for ya!
Posted on: 2007/12/21 1:49
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TommyT-Bone RE:Guess What!!!
Chair-man of the bored
Homestead USA
33760 Posts
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Come on.... Come on ......Give us some of the background on this. Or do I have to call Paul Harvey and get " The rest of the story".
Posted on: 2007/12/21 2:18
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CSS996 RE:Guess What!!!
Mega Guru
Central PA
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My guess is that it stems from his post in the "Support the Forum" thread over at CF. A lot of folks voiced their displeasure with CF in that thread.
Posted on: 2007/12/21 3:07
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Touringmike Re: Guess What!!!
Senior Guru
Sussex,Wi
569 Posts
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Quote:
I have been perminantly banned from CF!

Ain't that grand?


What?

Why?

I've been posting in threads the past two days about their Audi ads, and not even a warning.

Spill it.
Posted on: 2007/12/21 3:43
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Alcee1 Re: Guess What!!!
Guru Emeritus
Los Angeles
277 Posts
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Quote:
I have been perminantly banned from CF!

Ain't that grand?


What a rebel. What cha do wrong???
Posted on: 2007/12/21 3:45
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brut RE:Guess What!!!
Guru Emeritus
New Albany, IN
1308 Posts
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He must have brought some loyal fans with him...this is the most members I have ever seen on here at one given time!
Posted on: 2007/12/21 3:48
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bogus RE:Guess What!!!
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
20859 Posts
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CSS is right. It was that thread regarding "supporting the forum."

It was crap and everyone knew it.

JeffVette - a ZR1 expert was banned, so was CentralCoaster.

They are cracking down on dissention by kicking out their most knowledgeable and helpful members.

AFAIK, they get what they pay for.

Don't worry, this place is going nothing but up.
Posted on: 2007/12/21 5:00
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cuisinartvette RE:Guess What!!!
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1782 Posts
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That sucks dude. I have made many great frends there, learned a lot and shared a lot of information.

Thing Ive noticed is last year or so there is a whole new group of members there that reeeealy need some good tech guidance. There will always be someone to take anothers place but there is a HUGE influx of bad info and people in need of answers.

That place needs guys who have been hanging around and offering what tech they have, I posted in Zr1 sec that the mods reconsider their decision. Bogus and Central Coaster have a lot to offer C4 tech...

Without Jeffvette that ZR1 sec is F,d Ihavent run across a more helpful guy than he with his info, time and hookup on parts. If you own a Z you want to know him.

See what happens...
Posted on: 2007/12/21 6:20
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bogus RE:Guess What!!!
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
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As I said on the phone, the admins are looking for any form of dissention right now. Your quite civil disobedence is the type of crap they are aiming at right now.

I hope I am wrong... and perhaps they will read this thread and realize what they are upto... and undo some of the damage - starting by not banning you... but I would be shocked if they did anything that smart...
Posted on: 2007/12/21 6:51
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bogus RE:Guess What!!!
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
20859 Posts
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I will be off line for a while.. travelling home to Delaware for Christmas.

Chat soon!!!
Posted on: 2007/12/21 6:53
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toptechx6 RE:Guess What!!!
Senior Guru
south Florida
362 Posts
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As others have said, and this thread clearly indicates many of CF's members are heading here. Kind of funny that they are chasing away those needed the most, but their loss is your gain Andy.
Have a safe trip home.
Posted on: 2007/12/21 9:25
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TommyT-Bone RE:Guess What!!!
Chair-man of the bored
Homestead USA
33760 Posts
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I remember reading a lot of posts in the other place about how great it was in the early days. Well, the early days are back again only it's right here and it's right now. I've been watching the member list jump.
I came by this site a couple of years ago but didn't join till recently. I was glad to encounter a number of people that I am already familiar with. One door closes, another opens. I'm glad I'm on this side of the door.
Posted on: 2007/12/21 12:14
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red_johnny RE:Guess What!!!
On Sabbatical
Augusta, GA (85 383 stroker)
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You AND CC? WOW! Hard to believe
Posted on: 2007/12/21 12:50
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Touringmike RE:Guess What!!!
Senior Guru
Sussex,Wi
569 Posts
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[quote]You AND CC? WOW! Hard to believe :banghead]

Well, Bogus yes, CentralCoaster no.

CC has been one of the biggest antagonist to IB (If you ever saw his Avatar with the bald headed guy with IB painted on his head, with a circle around it and a slash line thru it, well.....). It just seems he would go in one day, post a thread, get a 30 day time out, come back in and start the process over.


None-the-less, it's really starting to iritate me. I like CF , mainly for the OT section. I stay away from/ignore the idiot non-vette posters, but the AUDI ads really bug me.

It was fun while it lasted (up til this past summer). Bummer.

Now, I gotta watch my spelling (Ooopps, misspelled got to)
Posted on: 2007/12/21 13:42
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red_johnny RE:Guess What!!!
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Augusta, GA (85 383 stroker)
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I dont even visit there any more unless I have buisiness like selling a C4 part or buying something from a forum member. I cant stand all the ads.
Posted on: 2007/12/21 14:59
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NC Kid RE:Guess What!!!
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North Carolina
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[quote]I dont even visit there any more unless I have buisiness like selling a C4 part or buying something from a forum member. I cant stand all the ads. :banghead]

It's kind of funny the way they are so...harsh...I find it entertaining banning members.
Posted on: 2007/12/21 15:30
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bogus RE:Guess What!!!
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
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I am done there. They have made sure of that...

I have found out that Streetknight got it, too.

If they are not careful, the intelectual property that made CF so great will be gone...

And who will be left to answer those questions on Lambo doors???
Posted on: 2007/12/21 15:31
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NC Kid RE:Guess What!!!
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North Carolina
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Quote:
That sucks dude. I have made many great frends there, learned a lot and shared a lot of information.

Thing Ive noticed is last year or so there is a whole new group of members there that reeeealy need some good tech guidance. There will always be someone to take anothers place but there is a HUGE influx of bad info and people in need of answers.

That place needs guys who have been hanging around and offering what tech they have, I posted in Zr1 sec that the mods reconsider their decision. Bogus and Central Coaster have a lot to offer C4 tech...

Without Jeffvette that ZR1 sec is F,d Ihavent run across a more helpful guy than he with his info, time and hookup on parts. If you own a Z you want to know him.

See what happens...


Huh? Your one of the top bullys over there. I can say you have given me your fair share of rude comments when they were uncalled for.
Posted on: 2007/12/21 15:35
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Lichen RE:Guess What!!!
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Scottsdale, Arizona
166 Posts
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A permamant ban? Wow? It looks like they deleted the entire "support the Forum" thread before I got the chance to read it. They have definately become too PC for a lot of members.
Posted on: 2007/12/21 17:21
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CasetheCorvetteman RE:Guess What!!!
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QLD, Australia
2071 Posts
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Quote:
Huh? Your one of the top bullys over there. I can say you have given me your fair share of rude comments when they were uncalled for.

You earn every bit of it mate.
Posted on: 2007/12/21 20:06
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NC Kid RE:Guess What!!!
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North Carolina
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Quote:
Quote:
Huh? Your one of the top bullys over there. I can say you have given me your fair share of rude comments when they were uncalled for.

You earn every bit of it mate.


I'm only a asswipe when need be. I can name a whole page full of members that treated me like dirt the first post I made 3 years ago when I first joined up over at CF. I remember my first ban to. Becawz I tiped lik dis s0 m0j0 done hit da ban mark 0n m3. But lets take me out of the equation for his and others rude comments on new comers with the Lambo door quiestions, air foil blah blah blah. I don't think they were born geniuses. They were newbs 2. BUT, I am not going to start a big match here cuz it's not as entertaining doing it here as it is at CF. Computer monitors give guys bigger egos than they really have. 3/4 of the stuff that goes on over there would never come out of someones mouth in person. Take my neons for example. If I went to Cruise in, I doubt anyone would say to my face, THOSE ARE FREAKING UGLY MAN.

Everyone knows that normally I am sweet as sugar...
Posted on: 2007/12/21 22:24
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bogus RE:Guess What!!!
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
20859 Posts
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Black - CHILL.

Don't get into wars you can't win, ok?

Take a less confrontational stand, show some maturity and a true desire to learn and you will not get picked on.
Posted on: 2007/12/22 0:17
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85-500-horse RE:Guess What!!!
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Venice, Florida
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I feel left out. I also participated in that "awful" CF bashing, but they didn't ban me. Schucks. I guess I need to do a better job next time.

I can't believe how self-centered, egotistical, obnoxious, those moderators must be over there to kick off a guy like Bogus. All he ever wanted to do was help his fellow Corvette brethren. What a bunch of asses.
Posted on: 2007/12/22 0:34
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NC Kid RE:Guess What!!!
Elite Guru
North Carolina
1671 Posts
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Quote:
Black - CHILL.

Don't get into wars you can't win, ok?

Take a less confrontational stand, show some maturity and a true desire to learn and you will not get picked on.


I wasnt starting a war. Im just being honest...If the worst thing is that people over the net give me a hard time, I consider myself doing good.

You should be enjoying your vactaion, not watching over me. Trust me, if you let me watch over the site while you relax, it would be better than when you left it. Of course with Administrator privlages. :tongue:
Posted on: 2007/12/22 1:18
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CentralCoaster RE:Guess What!!!
Senior Guru
San Diego, CA
9454 Posts
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Quote:
I wasnt starting a war. Im just being honest...If the worst thing is that people over the net give me a hard time, I consider myself doing good.


What was your username on CF?
Posted on: 2007/12/22 2:45
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CentralCoaster RE:Guess What!!!
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San Diego, CA
9454 Posts
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[quote="B1ack86v3tt3"]Quote:
I wasnt starting a war. Im just being honest...If the worst thing is that people over the net give me a hard time, I consider myself doing good.


What was your username on CF?
Posted on: 2007/12/22 2:45
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Touringmike RE:Guess What!!!
Senior Guru
Sussex,Wi
569 Posts
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[quote="CentralCoaster"]Quote:
Quote:
I wasnt starting a war. Im just being honest...If the worst thing is that people over the net give me a hard time, I consider myself doing good.


What was your username on CF?


I'll answer that.
N.C.Kid.

And he didn't get much love over there, because of the posts like the one above.

Imagine, telling the IB of C4Guru he can make the forum better.

I bet he can too.

A 1 man forum.
Merry Christmas to you.
Posted on: 2007/12/22 2:53
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kentucky_vetter RE:Guess What!!!
Senior Guru
somerset, ky
154 Posts
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black, buddy, you need to chill out and dont take everything so personal. as far as cf banning the brain trust, their loss gurus gain !
Posted on: 2007/12/22 2:54
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brut RE:Guess What!!!
Guru Emeritus
New Albany, IN
1308 Posts
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Quote:
Of course with Administrator privlages. :tongue:






Never happen
Posted on: 2007/12/22 3:30
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CasetheCorvetteman RE:Guess What!!!
Elite Guru
QLD, Australia
2071 Posts
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2006/7/18 0:00



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Quote:
I'm only a asswipe when need be. I can name a whole page full of members that treated me like dirt the first post I made 3 years ago when I first joined up over at CF. I remember my first ban to. Becawz I tiped lik dis s0 m0j0 done hit da ban mark 0n m3. But lets take me out of the equation for his and others rude comments on new comers with the Lambo door quiestions, air foil blah blah blah. I don't think they were born geniuses. They were newbs 2. BUT, I am not going to start a big match here cuz it's not as entertaining doing it here as it is at CF. Computer monitors give guys bigger egos than they really have. 3/4 of the stuff that goes on over there would never come out of someones mouth in person. Take my neons for example. If I went to Cruise in, I doubt anyone would say to my face, THOSE ARE FREAKING UGLY MAN.

Mate im as direct in person as i am on here. I dont speak with a forked tongue. If i saw a Corvette with neons under it id be the first one to walk up and tell you straight, "they look bloody rediculous mate", followed by the question: "what yobbo put them on there?"
Posted on: 2007/12/22 5:59
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Shadow RE:Guess What!!!
Senior Guru
271 Posts
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Quote:
I am done there. They have made sure of that...

I have found out that Streetknight got it, too.

If they are not careful, the intelectual property that made CF so great will be gone...

And who will be left to answer those questions on Lambo doors???


That'd be fact! The old 'knight failed to duck, too slow on the draw and was hit straight in the heart...DOA...12-20-07

but...his Shadow lives on........

And it looks like I'm in good company

:wave:

Cuisinartvette, thanks for the e-mail invitation
I'd forgottoen all about this place

Quote:
Mate im as direct in person as i am on here. I dont speak with a forked tongue. If i saw a Corvette with neons under it id be the first one to walk up and tell you straight, "they look bloody rediculous mate", followed by the question: "what yobbo put them on there?"


I'm with you there. I've NEVER said anything on ANY forum, that I wouldn't (and sometimes did) say in person!

Hey, Tommy and the rest of you....I'm baaaack

Merry Chrismas everyone and Safe travels Andy.

Gordon
Posted on: 2007/12/22 13:00
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Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of men? The SHADOW knows...

The CF Artist fka: STREETKNIGHT..R.I.P.

www.CorvetteFlorida.com

www.CorvetteInternational.com
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Touringmike RE:Guess What!!!
Senior Guru
Sussex,Wi
569 Posts
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:thumbleft:
Posted on: 2007/12/22 13:33
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bogus RE:Guess What!!!
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
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here is the update....

I am in Delaware, safe and sound! Thanks!!!

Shadow - great to see you here!!!!! CF's loss is our gain, no question!

Cuisinart - I will call tomorrow. The phone is charging now!

ok... here is the rest of the story.

A member PM'd me last night. He was blasted for posting a non-forum vendor as a potential source for purchase of a product. He got a PM from a mod telling him this was against the rules. He raised a good point, when talking about a product, is it against the rules to post a link to the manufacturer? Or a third party source? This was related to car audio products, and as we know, the number of audio vendors are limited, and not really well defined.

To top this off, the same mod then told him that he had a link in his sig that linked to - you guessed it - another unapproved vendor. The mod had the balls to remove the link!!!!!

This is what is happening to the forum. It's tragic to see this happen, but it has happened and there is nothing we can do, nor do I want to.

They are making their bed, let them sleep in it.

The internet is about free interchange of information. If we have a supporting vendor, great, but if someone has info that is available, share it. The info is more important than anything I can imagine.
Posted on: 2007/12/23 4:40
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red_johnny RE:Guess What!!!
On Sabbatical
Augusta, GA (85 383 stroker)
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I agree totally with you bogus. We should be allowed to post links of sites that we have found to work well for us. If I were really looking for some thing I would google it anyway so I dont know why CF gets their panties in a bunch.
Posted on: 2007/12/23 18:22
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Shadow RE:Guess What!!!
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duplicate
Posted on: 2007/12/23 19:52
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Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of men? The SHADOW knows...

The CF Artist fka: STREETKNIGHT..R.I.P.

www.CorvetteFlorida.com

www.CorvetteInternational.com
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Shadow RE:Guess What!!!
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Thanks for the welcome Andy

Did you get my pm?
Posted on: 2007/12/23 19:52
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Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of men? The SHADOW knows...

The CF Artist fka: STREETKNIGHT..R.I.P.

www.CorvetteFlorida.com

www.CorvetteInternational.com
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jrzvette RE:Guess What!!!
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new jersey
73 Posts
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2005/9/16 0:00



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Andy

I can't believe that they would do something as stupid as banning you, Streetknight, CC and god knows who else. I have to wonder if the if the new CF owner is dictating stronger enforcement of the "rules" or if the mods are trying to kiss up to the new owner (I've seen that happen on the corporate level more times then I care to count). If they're not careful the new owners will find out they've bought a bag full of air.

I know this forum is dedicated to the C4 but does anyone know if a similar purge is taking place in the other gens on CF?
Posted on: 2007/12/23 20:22
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red_johnny RE:Guess What!!!
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I think digital corvettes might be going that way.
Posted on: 2007/12/23 21:38
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Touringmike RE:Guess What!!!
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Sussex,Wi
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Quote:
I think digital corvettes might be going that way.


Being a member on both, I can tell you this.

I posted a thread on DC about the shenanigans going on in CF, because a lot of the banned CF regulars went that way. I also noted in the post that I personally saw some threads dissappear in DC, and posted a willy type of emoticon.
It got me a PM from a mod on DC.
The gist of the PM was, some undesireable muck rakers from CF have made their way to DC, and said muck raking won't be tolerated in DC.

Without the mod naming any of those rabblerousers, I can only assume the most of the low-lifes are OT posters, of which I partake on a regular basis (I did not get a warning, just an explanation as to why threads are gone on DC).

And let me state this also; While I like stirring the pot on occassion, I usually don't get to see the thread long enough into the part that actually makes it dissappear., thus my question "Why/where did it go?

I've yet to be sent to "time-out" anywhere, but this site has one member that could trigger a change of heart. DC, so far has none, and CF has, at a minimum, 100. But I'll just suspend my 4-finger hunt & peck keyboard stylin' to try and avoid it.
:thumbleft:
Posted on: 2007/12/23 22:01
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bogus RE:Guess What!!!
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
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This site is dedicated to C4's, that is correct.

However, I am planning on taking it mainstream.

Initially, I had no such desire, really. But as things went bad at CF, it became obvious there is room for one more major Corvette site (CF, DC and CAC).

Touringmike - I know who the one is you speak of... and I have had a word with that person. He has an uncanny ability to be a pain, I have told him that and I hope he takes the advise at heart. At some point, he will have to realize that when he gets banned, it might just be his fault...
Posted on: 2007/12/24 2:52
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Shadow RE:Guess What!!!
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This site is dedicated to C4's, that is correct.

However, I am planning on taking it mainstream.

Initially, I had no such desire, really. But as things went bad at CF, it became obvious there is room for one more major Corvette site (CF, DC and CAC).

Touringmike - I know who the one is you speak of... and I have had a word with that person. He has an uncanny ability to be a pain, I have told him that and I hope he takes the advise at heart. At some point, he will have to realize that when he gets banned, it might just be his fault...


As Andy mentions, there is room for more national level sites that are shall we say, less moderated. The problem is usually the start up. When people go there and see limited acvtivity, instead of jumping in with all fours and helping to get things going, they tend to gravitate to the already established sites

There's room for everyone, however, CF and DC are the top 2 on my ch!t list!

CF's mods and admins are getting rediculous and DC, well, it's DC, and Patrick is Patrick I prefer to stay away from there for personal reasons.

Everything will be fine here in time
Posted on: 2007/12/24 3:12
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Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of men? The SHADOW knows...

The CF Artist fka: STREETKNIGHT..R.I.P.

www.CorvetteFlorida.com

www.CorvetteInternational.com
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Shadow RE:Guess What!!!
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Quote:
This site is dedicated to C4's, that is correct.

However, I am planning on taking it mainstream.

Initially, I had no such desire, really. But as things went bad at CF, it became obvious there is room for one more major Corvette site (CF, DC and CAC).

Touringmike - I know who the one is you speak of... and I have had a word with that person. He has an uncanny ability to be a pain, I have told him that and I hope he takes the advise at heart. At some point, he will have to realize that when he gets banned, it might just be his fault...


As Andy mentions, there is room for more national level sites that are shall we say, less moderated. The problem is usually the start up. When people go there and see limited acvtivity, instead of jumping in with all fours and helping to get things going, they tend to gravitate to the already established sites

There's room for everyone, however, CF and DC are the top 2 on my ch!t list!

CF's mods and admins are getting rediculous and DC, well, it's DC, and Patrick is Patrick I prefer to stay away from there for personal reasons.

Everything will be fine here in time
Posted on: 2007/12/24 3:13
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Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of men? The SHADOW knows...

The CF Artist fka: STREETKNIGHT..R.I.P.

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Shadow RE:Guess What!!!
Senior Guru
271 Posts
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Quote:
This site is dedicated to C4's, that is correct.

However, I am planning on taking it mainstream.

Initially, I had no such desire, really. But as things went bad at CF, it became obvious there is room for one more major Corvette site (CF, DC and CAC).

Touringmike - I know who the one is you speak of... and I have had a word with that person. He has an uncanny ability to be a pain, I have told him that and I hope he takes the advise at heart. At some point, he will have to realize that when he gets banned, it might just be his fault...


I tend to avoid DC like the plague. I don't do hypocracy well and never have been much of a follower. They're pretty much thier own version of CF

The mods and admins on CF have gotten nutz! But it too will survive if for no other reason than the newbies that will ultimately sign on oblivious to the rudeness imposed on others. They'll either be assimilated or run....

There's room for more mainstram sites as Andy aluded to. Things will be ok here...and eleswhere...it'll just take time

If I don't get to say it before...MERRY CHRISTMAS and HAPPY NEW YEAR to each and every one of you!

Lets make 08 the year of the new and better forums!!
Posted on: 2007/12/24 3:18
_________________
Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of men? The SHADOW knows...

The CF Artist fka: STREETKNIGHT..R.I.P.

www.CorvetteFlorida.com

www.CorvetteInternational.com
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Shadow RE:Guess What!!!
Senior Guru
271 Posts
Member since:
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Quote:
This site is dedicated to C4's, that is correct.

However, I am planning on taking it mainstream.

Initially, I had no such desire, really. But as things went bad at CF, it became obvious there is room for one more major Corvette site (CF, DC and CAC).

Touringmike - I know who the one is you speak of... and I have had a word with that person. He has an uncanny ability to be a pain, I have told him that and I hope he takes the advise at heart. At some point, he will have to realize that when he gets banned, it might just be his fault...


I tend to avoid DC like the plague. I don't do hypocracy well and never have been much of a follower. They're pretty much thier own version of CF

The mods and admins on CF have gotten nutz! But it too will survive if for no other reason than the newbies that will ultimately sign on oblivious to the rudeness imposed on others. They'll either be assimilated or run....

There's room for more mainstram sites as Andy aluded to. Things will be ok here...and eleswhere...it'll just take time

If I don't get to say it before...MERRY CHRISTMAS and HAPPY NEW YEAR to each and every one of you!

Lets make 08 the year of the new and better forums!!
Posted on: 2007/12/24 3:19
_________________
Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of men? The SHADOW knows...

The CF Artist fka: STREETKNIGHT..R.I.P.

www.CorvetteFlorida.com

www.CorvetteInternational.com
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bogus RE:Guess What!!!
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I have not visited their OT, so I have no opinion.


I do know that the C4 tech area is sparsely populated... there are not a lot of posters, and the tech knowledge is very limited.

I am hoping to bring people here strictly by osmosis.

now, to advertise we exist even more....
Posted on: 2007/12/24 4:07
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Rimcrew RE:Guess What!!!
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Quote:
...does anyone know if a similar purge is taking place in the other gens on CF?


Yep! The C1/C2 section has been decimated, as well. Same story; the knowledgeable folks have been driven off.
Posted on: 2007/12/24 5:03
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bogus RE:Guess What!!!
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
20859 Posts
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I wonder then, what is happening in C5/C6?

This purge is going to turn them into another form of MySpace, just based on Corvettes. True tech discussions won't be able to happen, at all, there won't be anyone left to answer questions clearly.

I wonder what will happen to Mojo? I mean, he and I go WAY back, to the very early days, he is one of the oldest mods they have. Is he now a thread to the way they do business?

Sucks, really...
Posted on: 2007/12/24 6:09
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bizaro RE:Guess What!!!
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wisconsin
44 Posts
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2006/9/23 0:00



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I only got banned for a weekend. Got another warning yesterday. Pretty soon they will shut themselves down. Cept for the azzkissers,lol. Then they can change the name to "corvetteforumazzkissers" and run all the ads they want.

Merry Christmas everyone.

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Posted on: 2007/12/24 9:13
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