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| Matatk | Car broke down.... | ||
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Yeah, the title says it all! Here I am on the side of the road waiting for my tow truck. Was driving on the highway 80 mph...all of a sudden the car backfires and loses power...motor quits. Tow is here...update later!
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Posted on: 2010/10/17 23:26
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| BillH | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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The Stig Moderator
 
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That sucks, M.
Good Luck. |
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Posted on: 2010/10/17 23:31
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| pianoguy | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Arghhh - good luck, Matt!
PS - I'm sure that was a typo, as we know you wouldn't exceed the posted limit. ;) |
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Posted on: 2010/10/17 23:40
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| TommyT-Bone | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Sorry to here that. I'll be waiting fot the update.
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 0:44
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| biggrizzly | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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2011 Memorial Day Car Show Winner!
 
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OMG! Hope nothing serious.
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 0:52
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| JeffK | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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That sucks! hopefully you were not far from home!
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 1:03
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| bogus | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
 
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sucks, dude...
so... any bets it's the fuel pump? |
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 1:04
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| Matatk | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Well, the tow was there quick and the driver was very cool. Young guy just back from Iraq/Germany in the military, started towing about a month ago. I gave him a lesson on towing corvettes
 Anyway, due to time constraints (ie, babies and bedtimes) I couldn't do but more than 20 minutes of work. So far...I started running down the basics and using the FSM troubleshooting. Only code is a 33 (maf high) from an intermittent blip last month that I forgot to clear. So I know the ECM is communicating, that's a good thing to me meaning it's not fried. Tried cranking at home and it will crank but not catch. Fuel pressure checks out good. In line spark tested shows spark - it was kind of orange. I am not 100% sure of the strength of it. Next test in the FSM is a noid light, which amongst my vast array of tools, I do not have. But it seemed like the motor almost caught once or twice once the car was in my garage and the motor had cooled down. On a weird note, I did plug in the laptop to check datamaster. It's showing engine temp was a little higher than air temp at the time...like 29* celsius, so I don't think it's the CTS giving me problems. It did, however, show me the tach at 3188 when the car had the ignition turned on, not cranking. I am wondering if my tach filter is messed up, because it seems fine while I am driving. Something to look at. I am suspecting that this issue is ignition system related. Overall I am throwing a guess out that that the ICM might be bad. Once I get some more time tomorrow, I will do some more diagnostics. Of course, the car will probably start in the morning.....  Matthew |
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 2:25
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| -=Jeff=- | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Master Guru
 
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ICM, would have been my suggestion
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 2:32
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| cuisinartvette | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Ugh, darn C4s never know when they are going to crap out on ya. Hope its an easy fix.
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 2:39
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| TommyT-Bone | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Quote:
How do you know you own a C4? You have AAA on speed dial. Your mechanics know you by name. You have tools. Lots of tools. You're broke. Always broke. Your wife just asked you; What's a matter with the car this time? Other than that they seem to be pretty good cars. |
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 2:54
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| Matatk | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Thanks guys.
I forgot to mention I also checked the TPS voltage (per FSM) and it was in spec at .55. You are also supposed to check for vacuum leaks and for a good seal at the MAF. There is no code 42 which would indicate a problem specifically with the HEI distributor. There might be one or two other steps in troubleshooting I left out, just trying to help anyone else who reads this post later. Matthew |
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 2:57
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| bogus | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Tools. Lots and lots of tools. Even more than that, too. |
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 3:37
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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You fared better than me. My truck took a shit Friday night week before last at 1:30 am, 2 miles from town, and after trying to fix it myself, I called AAA and got the run around from them repeatedly and to keep a long story short, I find out the tow truck wasn't contacted until 2 HOURS after my initial call, despite all my repeated calls. Tow truck took 10 minutes to get there. I got home at 5:30 am.
The tow driver informed me that their computer system goes down daily for "updating" at about that time and all the roadside calls have to be done by hand during that period of 30+ minutes, and that they have roadside calls fall through the cracks on a regular basis in that timeframe, and that despite the constant reminders from the tow drivers, it's an ongoing issue. He basically said the solution is to not break down at 1:30am. |
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 7:03
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| cuisinartvette | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Heres the tow truck driver calming Kevin down
http://www.youtube.com/results?search ... +the+choo+choo+train&aq=1 |
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 7:29
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Actually I gave the tow driver a $20 tip. AAA on the other hand is going to get an earful...
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 7:40
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| cuisinartvette | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Elite Guru
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Just razzin ya waiting for a tow sucks, period.
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 7:47
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| Matatk | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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That sucks, Kevin. My tow guy said he'd be there in 25 minutes and showed up in 15. He said he'd been dead all day so he didn't mind the job on a Sunday at all.
Of course I know this car is gonna fire up when I try it this morning, but I wasn't leaving it on the side of a superbusy highway. No telling what might happen. Matthew |
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 11:48
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| flyboy | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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That sucks, especially on a busy highway. If it starts when cooled down wouldn't that reinforce your ICM theory? I have a spare in my tool kit, but wouldn't want to be changing one with my ass sticking out in heavy traffic. Maybe I should invest in a new tool for when that happens to me, a cell phone so I can call for a tow.
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 12:53
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| Matatk | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Haven't tried to start it yet this morning, Joe. But I'll let you all know.
I carry some really basic tools in the car, looks like I'll have to beef those up. I carry an extra serpentine belt, now I'll be adding and ICM to that and probably a f/p relay. I also need to toss in a cheap hf wrench and socket set. It never ends. I'll be carrying a full sized snap on tool box and gm parts counter before you know it. Ugh. Matthew Hard to tell because it was pitch black...but there she is...sniff. Attach file:  flatbed ride 10-17-10.jpg (0.00 KB) |
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 13:12
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| biggrizzly | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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2011 Memorial Day Car Show Winner!
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ICM +1
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 13:23
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| BillH | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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The Stig Moderator
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Yea, does sound like ignition especially with the backfire.
I've been lucky with breakdowns. In all these years, I only had one, trans blew in my Chevy Van towing an enclosed trailer (at 290,000mi.). I was on top of a hill in Monterey,Ca, coasted down the hill and into an Amico Trans shop parking lot. Not where I wanted to have the trans done but the timing wasn't bad. |
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 13:49
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| DaleD | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Ain't that the truth. I have a cell phone for only one reason, I own a C4, and WILL NOT drive the car without the cell phone with me. |
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 14:40
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Whenever someone says "I'm not book smart, but I'm street smart", all I hear is "I'm not real smart, but I'm imaginary smart". |
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| Woodstock | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Hi Matthew,
if you want to, you can take the ignition coil I got still sitting on your new garage-shelf. It's yours free, if you need it! Good luck, Axel |
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 15:04
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| Matatk | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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To be honest with you I totally forgot it was there....I might take you up on that offer to get it running. Still have to get out there and work on it, though. I've been spending the morning taking care of rugrat #1 and cleaning the house. I still need to get to Radio Shack regardless and get some heat sink compound. Matthew |
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 15:20
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| bogus | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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I had to stop a tow operator who wanted to sinch down bastet44's 87 using the rear lower control arms!!!!
Stopped that in a New York Minute... when I pointed out the tie downs he was like, "oh, wow, I didn't know those were there." Are they training these dolts??? |
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 16:03
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Matatk | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Well, just got a minute to go out and crank...nothing. In line spark tester is weaker now than it was last night. Weird. Looks like I'll be pulling the distributor cap apart and doing some diagnostics. More to come!
Matthew |
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 16:53
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| JeffK | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Elite Guru
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when mine broke down I did not realize where the tow driver strapped mine down until we got to the house. He had it hooked to the LCA's!
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 20:40
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| Matatk | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Well, not in a great mood. I took the distributor apart and did the step by step testing as outlined in the FSM.
DVOM the ignition coil - three tests... 1st resistance is supposed to be zero or close - 1.7 2nd resistance 500-1500 ohms - 750-800 3rd resistance infinite - mine was infinite (1 on meter on high setting) Checked the pickup coil - two tests 1st resistance for coil itself was in spec (can't remember) 2nd resistance is connector to distributor case should be infinite - mine was infinite (1 on meter) That means it's the ICM (according to FSM). So I go to autozone, got it tested. It actually tested bad - I was surprised but happy and relieved at the same time. Got a new one for $28. Come home, put it all back together...still won't fire. Getting a spark light on the inline spark tester. Talked to Rick about it and we came up with a few things: 1) not sure if 1.7 ohms is close enough to "zero" for the coil - might be bad, too. 2) my spark tester is crap, it's the "light" type instead of the better "arc" type. The reasoning is a small amount of power can light the tester, whereas the arc type makes a blue spark when it has 25,000 volts. 3) my plugs are wet with gas and cylinders might have liquid gasoline in them. This worries me a bit. I pulled the #3 spark plug (easiest to get to) and it did smell like gas and had a slight moisture to it. I obviously can't see inside the block to check for liquid gas. I think tomorrow I am going to pull all the plugs (damn it!!!) and either clean or replace them. I will also take some compressed air and blow out the cylinders. I also need to check the oil for any signs of gasoline that may have leaked down. I also found a test online where you use a test light connected to the positive battery terminal and backprobe the tach wire output. Depending how it blinks tells you if the coil is bad or the icm/pickup. I need to get a different test light because the one I have is just the led lights for voltage and I can't find my other one (lost somewhere...). Comments? Matthew |
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 21:12
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| BillH | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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The Stig Moderator
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I don't think you'll find too much gas in the cyl's, it's not supprising that the plugs are wet if you lost spark but the injectors still fired as you pulled off the road.
Since you're pulling the plugs anyway, just spin the motor a few revs with them out. And ground one or two plugs while they're out to check for spark (after you've blown out the cyls to remove gas fumes). |
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 21:55
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| Woodstock | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Senior Guru
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We just have had the ???-signs in our eyes last week, after chasing down a no spark symptom for a full day!
We changed all ignition parts from left to right. Turned out to be the wiring to the instrument panel, in particular the tach signal. We just had to unplug the tach connector at the distributor and felt like real idiots, when it fired right up. We came close when I measured the voltage at the distributor with the cap off. The middle is of course ground, the other two terminals left and right need to have full 12V battery voltage. Ours had 10.7V on the "bat" side and 4.2V on the "tach" side. Did you try already to start it with the EST unplugged? |
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Posted on: 2010/10/18 22:27
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| Matatk | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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I have not tried to start it with the tach disconnected or the est disconnected now that I have the new ICM installed. I will do that. I am curious why my tach was reading 0 on the dashboard but 3188 on the computer scan when the car was off and the ignition on.
I bought a new test light tonight since I couldn't find the old one and I will do a few more tests with that. I will not be defeated! Lol. Matthew |
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Posted on: 2010/10/19 1:54
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| biggrizzly | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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2011 Memorial Day Car Show Winner!
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You'll find the Gremlin. I don't think coils go bad too frequently but its very possible. Mine has 157000 miles on it and seems to be still working... or at least was. LOL
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Posted on: 2010/10/19 2:32
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Don Haller Corvette Club of America 94Coupe, 383Stroka, PeteK Trans, 3000stall, 3.54rear, Konis and bigger sways. |
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| bogus | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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I wouldn't bother pulling the plugs... to be honest, the gas will evap by tomorrow!
Check the cap... and rotor for that matter... either way, a crack on them will really ruin your day. |
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Posted on: 2010/10/19 4:23
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Matatk | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Quote:
I figured sitting overnight it would evaporate like you say. When I had the cap off, I did not see any visible cracks, but of course that doesn't mean they aren't there. The cap/rotor are MSD and were replaced around 2007 and have maybe 15000 miles total. Matthew |
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Posted on: 2010/10/19 12:52
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| Matatk | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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So the saga continues...
Went to tinker with the car today. Checked the power wire at the distributor and the tach wire like Axel suggested and I found full battery voltage at each. Wanted to check past the filter since I had that weird reading, and when I pulled the harness apart the wire split from the filter. So I cut it out and spliced it. Weird thing was that before I found this when I used datamaster, it showed rpm 3188 with key in ignition. When I used WinALDL it showed 0. After datamaster still showed 3188. Don't know why. Disconnected the est and attempted to start. It seemed like it almost wanted to catch once. So I read a way to check for spark was to probe the tach wire with a test light and see if it blinks or stays solid, indicating a spark and whether or not there's a problem with the icm or coil. I'll post that info up later. Well, the test light gave a weak light at best. So I pulled the cap/ignition coil...again. This time when I tested it, the tach/power ohm resistance was in the 6-7 range, it's supposed to be close to zero. A short while later after I pulled it out, it was down to 1.3. I took it to the store and he tested it at .9. Parts guy said the range is .2-.8. It seems that as it was heating up, it was getting worse - maybe a short in the windings. So I bought a new one and put it in. Went to fire it up with the new coil and it made the best progress yet but still didn't catch. When it was turning over it almost seemed like the motor had a rough spot where it was binding (or gas in cylinder????). I wasn't taking any chances. I drained the oil to check it like I mentioned before. The oil had a slight odor of gasoline, but the color was good, the viscosity appeared normal, and it wasn't flammable. I think a little gas mixed, but I put it back in temporarily until I get the motor going. I did buy an oil change special from AZ to change it when done. Then I started pulling the plugs. Almost all of them seemed fouled and wet with gas. One or two seemed worse than than the others. I also found a cracked porcelain on #7 that needed to be replaced anyway. Tomorrow I'll turn the motor by hand the check for any binding. I think leaving the cylinders open overnight will help with any residual gas. I'll pick up a new set of plugs, too. The worst part of pulling the plugs was the damn headers. I'd like to meet the guy who designed them and punch him in the face. Ugh. I ended up reengineering a socket that helped immensely. I took some pics and I'll post them up later. So that's where I'm at. Matthew |
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Posted on: 2010/10/20 1:32
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| RickAnthony | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Kinda wondering if the ICM went, and then cranking it flooded it out bad enough not to start.. and the longer you crank it without it running the more fuel that will get into the cyclinders and flood it.. I've seen things like this happen. BTW from the description I don't think a noid like is going to help you sounds like you have adequate fuel weather or not the injectors are firing when they are supposed to. -=Rick |
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Posted on: 2010/10/20 3:27
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| Matatk | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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That's my guesstimate so far. ICM went bad, car stopped. Continuous cranking filled cylinders/made plugs wet. Ignition coil could have been on way out and causing poor spark? Not sure if the tach filter was related, but it's out of the equation now. Hopefully new ICM, new coil, new plugs, aired out cylinders should do the trick. Matthew |
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Posted on: 2010/10/20 3:45
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| Matatk | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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So here's the status update:
Got the set of NGK plugs - BKR6E - I called NGK tech line and that's two ranges colder than stock due to my upgrades. So I'm happy about that. Got a chance this afternoon to put them in. Using my new socket tool I made, I was able to get all the plugs installed in about 45 minutes (rough estimate). Went to fire it up and no go. WTF? Start going through the diagnostics again. It looks like I'll get one spark or maybe two during cranking, but if I continue cranking there are no more sparks. So per the FSM I'm going to the HEI troubleshooting area. Biggest problem I'm encountering is I don't have the ST-125 spark testing tool the manual requires.  Regardless, I did as many tests as I could, checking what I could. It seems to point to the ICM being bad again, although this is not 100% accurate without the correct spark tester. I'm gonna take it to autozone tomorrow to have them test it... I'll keep you posted. Matthew BTW - here is the troubleshooting flow chart:  |
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Posted on: 2010/10/22 1:32
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| Matatk | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Looking around online it looks like I can get the equivalent spark tester anywhere for around $8.
Matthew Attach file: lisle spark tester.JPG (0.00 KB) kd 2756.JPG (0.00 KB) |
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Posted on: 2010/10/22 1:53
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| RickAnthony | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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ASE Master Certified
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Basically something like the first design there is good I think the one I have at work is made be Thexton. If your getting erratic spark, and the ICM is new/tests good, I am wondering if there isn't a problem with the pickup coil in the dist. Also have you checked to make sure the dist. shaft is still turning? I'd pull the cap off and have someone crank it and watch to make sure it's spinning like it should. We've seen some strange failures on dist. drive gears lately. -=Rick |
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Posted on: 2010/10/22 3:46
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| Matatk | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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I keep looking at the pickup coild going "it's the only thing I haven't changed" - but it keeps testing good. I found a new test on the internet that isn't in the FSM - it says during cranking, the pickup coil should see at least 3 volts, I believe. Lower than that and it's bad. I'm gonna try that. AFAIK the shaft is still turning because the rotor has been in different positions when I've pulled the cap each time....ugh. I'll get the spark tester and take the ICM to autozone later. Matthew |
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Posted on: 2010/10/22 12:58
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| Matatk | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Well, I played some more. I have good news, and bad news. The good news is that the pickup coil is not the problem. The good news is I found the problem. The bad news is that the problem sucks!!!!
I looked deeper into what Rick had mentioned. When I turned the motor over by hand, the distributor was turning...then it seemed to catch in one spot and not move. I pulled the distributor and this is what I found:    So I found the problem. What now? Matthew |
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Posted on: 2010/10/22 15:27
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| pr0zac | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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bronze gear. whats the cam gear made of? i have a stock used gear in my car from my 91 Z28 if you can't get your hands on one.
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Posted on: 2010/10/22 15:41
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96 lt4. 357ci, 11:1, LE 226/232, LE2 LT4 heads, ported LT4 intake, EM Gladiator44, EM LT's, stock exhaust, NX kit. |
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| BillH | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Yep, I saw that happen twice this year on SBCs at the track although one gear was a composite.
If it was me with a new, expensive motor, I'd pull the pan and the oil pump to make sure no shavings are on the pump drive. |
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Posted on: 2010/10/22 15:43
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| captmike13 | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Now that just bites the big one. I agree with Bill check to make sure no metal got where it isn't supose to. Glad ya found it though.
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Posted on: 2010/10/22 15:53
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Mike| bogus | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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good work, guys!!! I think you owe Rick a hoagie for this one!
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Posted on: 2010/10/22 15:59
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Matatk | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Talked to Rick for a few minutes and we kicked around a few ideas. I think I agree pulling the pan is the best idea, but I've already done three oil changes since the motor was new, and I didn't observe anything unusual. I also drained the oil the other day to check for fuel and didn't find any unusual contaminants. So I'm up in the air.
What we were more concerned with was what caused the damage. It is the fact that the distributor gear had 20 years and 90,000 miles on it already? Was it previously worn when I reinstalled it and I didn't inspect it closely enough? Or is my cam walking? Are there problems with my cam bearings? So those are some real issues I have to deal with I'm gonna mull it over and see what I decide. I'm also going to email comp cams and see what they say. Matthew |
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Posted on: 2010/10/22 18:15
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| BillH | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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The Stig Moderator
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Quote:
I agree. But think that you inspecting it would have been 50/50. These do fail like this. When you put the disty in a motor with different cam, etc. The loading on the gear will be slightly different (in tenths) and a gear that old may not like it. If I had to make a guess, I wouldn't think cam walk or bearings is your problem, just an old gear. I would check the endplay either with a dial or feeler gauges between the gear and housing. There is usually way more than spec. I don;t have the tolerance for an L98 but the SBC is .005 - .009 IIRC. (My 67 that I just did had .050 before I rebuilt it). Shim kits are available. I'd also put in a new pin (for the gear). May come with the new gear, may not. |
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Posted on: 2010/10/22 18:43
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Every man dies but not every man lives. |
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| BillH | Re: Car broke down.... | ||
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Also check the play in the shaft bushings, top and bottom.
You can probably do it by feel. Check it one way and then 90 degrees to that, they tend to wear more one way than the other due to the sideloading by the cam. I haven't seen a spec but mine was .001 and .0015. Attach file: IMGP0907.JPG (0.00 KB) |
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Posted on: 2010/10/22 18:51
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