Head gaskets?! [Forums - C4 Technical]

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JeffK	Head gaskets?!	#1
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	Too many options for my simple mind. Here's what I have in my Summit cart so far... -Felpro 1010 head gaskets recommended for the Aluminum heads. .039 compressed thickness. -ARP head bolts 12pt. -Felpro intake manifold gasket kit MS930351 -ARP Ultra-torque assembly lube So far it's $150 Still looking for good header gaskets. Should have never used the ones that came with the headers. They were garbage. Already have the VC gaskets.
	Posted on: 2011/2/3 13:49

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pr0zac	Re: Head gaskets?!	#2
Elite Guru Pittsburgh 1045 Posts Member since: 2008/10/20 23:28	why not go with a thinner gasket to tighten up the quench and bump your compression a bit?
	Posted on: 2011/2/3 14:13
	_________________ 96 lt4. 357ci, 11:1, LE 226/232, LE2 LT4 heads, ported LT4 intake, EM Gladiator44, EM LT's, stock exhaust, NX kit.
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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#3
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	I was kinda scared too. In all honesty. I saw some with .29 quench would that be better?
	Posted on: 2011/2/3 14:31

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flyboy	Re: Head gaskets?!	#4
Elite Guru Westmont, Il. 2632 Posts Member since: 2008/9/28 12:47	I have 10k miles on my 1094's including drag strip time. Static comp. is 11.02:1. Here's a good link. However, if you have any misgivings I would say to go with something that will give you peace of mind. http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/tec ... 7-anyone-use-fel-pro.html
	Posted on: 2011/2/3 15:33

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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#5
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	I just didn't want to get them too thin and end up with the piston smacking the valves that's all. Reading that thread in TGO I think I'll be ok with the .015 since my block is stock.
	Posted on: 2011/2/3 15:35

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rklessdriver	Re: Head gaskets?!	#6
Senior Guru Woodbridge, VA 1318 Posts Member since: 2008/1/4 0:00	My head gasket recomendation. Victor Reinz PN 5746. .026 compressed thickness. $18.00 each. Quench is the distance from the piston to the cyl head deck surface, so you add how far the piston is in the hole (block deck surface) and the head gasket thickness. Decreasing the quench does 2 main things important to a modified street car. First it adds a bit of compression. Second it increases turbulance in the AF mixture as the piston approaches TDC during the compression stroke. This second action makes the AF mixture burn more completely. I want to stress that what I just said is a VERY simplified version of the quench theroy. There are a number of SAE white papers dedicated to aspects of the subject. That said, generally it's held that the quench should be around .040 in a normally aspriated high performance engine and any benifit of "good" quench is lost when the quench distance is over .050. Most SBC's end up from GM with the piston .015-.025 in the hole... so using the VR 5746, your quench would be .041-.051 depending on where your piston to deck specs out. Piston to valve clearance shouldn't be a problem in your case. Will
	Posted on: 2011/2/3 15:46
	_________________ 1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station.
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rklessdriver	Re: Head gaskets?!	#7
Senior Guru Woodbridge, VA 1318 Posts Member since: 2008/1/4 0:00	I see flyboy posted a good alternative gasket while I was writing my post. The Fel Pro 1094 would also work on your engine and tighten up the quench even more than the VR gasket. The Fel Pro is a steel shim type gasket thou and they will "brinnel" (a grove in the deck surface of) alum heads that will need to surfaced out if you ever have to pull the heads again. It's not a big deal and I've done it and delt with it in the past. Will
	Posted on: 2011/2/3 15:56
	_________________ 1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station.
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flyboy	Re: Head gaskets?!	#8
Elite Guru Westmont, Il. 2632 Posts Member since: 2008/9/28 12:47	Surface prep is important with the 1094's. Clean, smooth and not warped. My aluminum 113 heads were surfaced. From what I read, if your fingernail does not hang up on the surface, you should be O.K. My 52k mile block deck was not pitted and had a nice finish on it. I checked it with a straightedge. I used the rubber coated gasket dry per the instructions and torqued it in 3 steps. After 1k miles I had the valve covers off for another project and checked the new ARP bolts that I could reach. All was good. edit: my stock block pistons averaged about .022" down into the bore.
	Posted on: 2011/2/3 16:10
	_________________ '91coupe, LT4Hotcam, some other stuff. If it's too loud, you're too old. "He works on old cars, then junks 'em"
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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#9
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	Ok, I'm sold on the 1094's Now how about some good header gaskets.
	Posted on: 2011/2/3 17:12

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Jeffvette	Re: Head gaskets?!	#10
Elite Guru Not on CF 1297 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 0:00	Quote: JeffK wrote: Still looking for good header gaskets. Should have never used the ones that came with the headers. They were garbage. Percy's Dead Soft gaskets. Can't remember if summit carries them or if it is Jeg's.
	Posted on: 2011/2/3 17:40

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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#11
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	Quote: Jeffvette wrote: Quote: JeffK wrote: Still looking for good header gaskets. Should have never used the ones that came with the headers. They were garbage. Percy's Dead Soft gaskets. Can't remember if summit carries them or if it is Jeg's. Summit calls them Seal-4-good and Jegs calls them Dead soft. Thanks Jeff!
	Posted on: 2011/2/3 17:47

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Josh	Re: Head gaskets?!	#12
Guru Raleigh, NC 666 Posts Member since: 2008/1/1 0:00	I use the copper header gaskets from the chain stores. I've had the same set since 2005, taken the headers off/on 4-5 times, and never had a leak.
	Posted on: 2011/2/4 0:56
	_________________ "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton
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Matatk	Re: Head gaskets?!	#13
Webmaster SW Chicago Burbs 22803 Posts Member since: 2008/1/7 0:00	Quote: Jeffvette wrote: Quote: JeffK wrote: Still looking for good header gaskets. Should have never used the ones that came with the headers. They were garbage. Percy's Dead Soft gaskets. Can't remember if summit carries them or if it is Jeg's. +1 on percys. I have them on mine with no leaks. You don't need fancy locking bolts. I used stainless steel cap head bolts with lock washers, no problems. Matthew
	Posted on: 2011/2/4 2:17
	_________________ 2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP
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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#14
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	Josh - Thank you for the suggestion. I am going to try the Percy's since they are only $30. Matthew - I am going to buy one of those Stainless allen bolt kits off Fleabay that covers every bolt on the engine including the header bolts. I think it's like $60. NO MORE Torx intake bolts!!
	Posted on: 2011/2/4 2:45

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pr0zac	Re: Head gaskets?!	#15
Elite Guru Pittsburgh 1045 Posts Member since: 2008/10/20 23:28	i use mr.gasket header gaskets from parts stores with good luck. the ultra seal ones.
	Posted on: 2011/2/4 3:09
	_________________ 96 lt4. 357ci, 11:1, LE 226/232, LE2 LT4 heads, ported LT4 intake, EM Gladiator44, EM LT's, stock exhaust, NX kit.
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jonszr1	Re: Head gaskets?!	#16
Senior Guru Lone Pine, CA 453 Posts Member since: 2010/10/25 22:42	the new soft gaskets are great ,here is an old racer trick if you ever have to use the pressed paper board type . the night before you put your headers on put them in water and let them soak . 8 hrs min. then pull them out of the water and put them on tighten everything up and start the car and idle of 15min . .the gasket will expand a bunch .shut the motor off let it cool for an hr and ck bolts. most of the time you dont have to re tq and the gasket will never leak as it stks to everything
	Posted on: 2011/2/4 6:34
	_________________ i have a blast playing with my 4 babies 2 zr1s and 2 mustangs 68 coupe with a jon bennit 408 art car fully rollered c4 with a gearvendors over drive .88 mustang built by my kids with a ported lt5 and a bill boudreau blue printed zf 6 spd. with these 4 ...
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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#17
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	Now that's interesting, I wonder who the first guy to try that was.
	Posted on: 2011/2/4 12:32

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Matatk	Re: Head gaskets?!	#18
Webmaster SW Chicago Burbs 22803 Posts Member since: 2008/1/7 0:00	Quote: JeffK wrote: Josh - Thank you for the suggestion. I am going to try the Percy's since they are only $30. Matthew - I am going to buy one of those Stainless allen bolt kits off Fleabay that covers every bolt on the engine including the header bolts. I think it's like $60. NO MORE Torx intake bolts!! Just make sure the bolts for the headers are long enough. Some flanges are thick. If they are too short, they will back out. Matthew
	Posted on: 2011/2/4 12:33
	_________________ 2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP
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jaa1992	Re: Head gaskets?!	#19
Guru Stone Mtn, GA (near Atlanta) 187 Posts Member since: 2007/10/30 0:00	Why did you choose the 12pt head bolts - or are you thinking intake bolts? I'm not sure a 12 pt head bolt would be wise. Had enough troubles getting the normal 6 pt bolts to torque.
	Posted on: 2011/2/4 14:05

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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#20
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	My thinking on that is there would be 12pts of contact absorbing the torque verses 6pts. From the Summit site "They come available with hex heads or reduced wrenching 12-point heads that eliminate the need for valvetrain removal when re-torquing cylinder heads."
	Posted on: 2011/2/4 14:37

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flyboy	Re: Head gaskets?!	#21
Elite Guru Westmont, Il. 2632 Posts Member since: 2008/9/28 12:47	Is it easier to slip and bust a knuckle with the 12 pt.?
	Posted on: 2011/2/4 14:41
	_________________ '91coupe, LT4Hotcam, some other stuff. If it's too loud, you're too old. "He works on old cars, then junks 'em"
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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#22
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	I honestly don't know the answer to that. I just thought the 12 points would be better. Maybe someone can chime in who has used them. Hopefully soon. Going to order the stuff from Summit today.
	Posted on: 2011/2/4 14:50

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flyboy	Re: Head gaskets?!	#23
Elite Guru Westmont, Il. 2632 Posts Member since: 2008/9/28 12:47	I think the idea behind the 12 pt. is so you can get a socket on them once the valve train is in place, but I don't think you can beat a 6pt. socket for grip and torquing those bolts with the engine in the car was pretty strenuous, for me anyway.
	Posted on: 2011/2/4 14:56
	_________________ '91coupe, LT4Hotcam, some other stuff. If it's too loud, you're too old. "He works on old cars, then junks 'em"
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flyboy	Re: Head gaskets?!	#24
Elite Guru Westmont, Il. 2632 Posts Member since: 2008/9/28 12:47	Whatever exhaust gaskets you get, the shape is important so as not to impede the exhaust flow while still getting a good seal. That's what I read anyway.
	Posted on: 2011/2/4 15:00
	_________________ '91coupe, LT4Hotcam, some other stuff. If it's too loud, you're too old. "He works on old cars, then junks 'em"
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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#25
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	hmm.. I guess that's true about the bolts.
	Posted on: 2011/2/4 15:25

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rklessdriver	Re: Head gaskets?!	#26
Senior Guru Woodbridge, VA 1318 Posts Member since: 2008/1/4 0:00	The 12pt bolt are usually all "reduced head" so there is more socket/wrench clearance around the header tube. IE 3/8 wrench/socket on a 3/8 thread bolt when a common header bolt would be 7/16 wrench/socket on a 3/8 bolt. Now some companies do offer reduced head 6pt header bolts as well. Schonfield offers header bolts that use a 3/8" 6pt wrench/socket as does Milodon and some others I think. Will
	Posted on: 2011/2/4 18:37
	_________________ 1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station.
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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#27
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	I switched it up to the 6 points. Still shopping on the Summit site.
	Posted on: 2011/2/4 19:49

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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#28
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	Ok, more while I'm in there questions... Should I change out the lifters while I'm this far into the engine? Or can I check the ones installed to make sure they're good to go?
	Posted on: 2011/2/4 20:29

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bogus	Re: Head gaskets?!	#29
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	Quote: JeffK wrote: Now that's interesting, I wonder who the first guy to try that was. No kidding!!!
	Posted on: 2011/2/6 21:01
	_________________ The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me
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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#30
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	Heads came off last night. I made a huge mess since it seems I didn't get enough coolant out of the engine. So I cleaned out the cylinders with paper towels and then blew them out. Coated them with a light coat of motor oil and stuffed some paper towels in there for now. Covered the engine up with a trash bag to prevent anything from falling into the engine. Dropping the VC's, intake runners and plenum off at the powder coaters today. Still not sure what color I want to do. I'm thinking just a bright silver with red insets. Once I find the LT4 springs and retainers the heads are going to the machine shop. I looked over the cylinder walls a little. #6 has some fine scratches going up and down the wall. Big concern or ignore it?
	Posted on: 2011/2/7 13:18

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BillH	Re: Head gaskets?!	#31
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: JeffK wrote: Heads came off last night. I made a huge mess since it seems I didn't get enough coolant out of the engine. Yea, that will happen. You need to remove the knock sensors (very carefully) to get that coolant out. A lot of LT owners miss this step when flushing the coolant too. There's a boatload of crud behind these sensors. I'd suggest that if possible, when the heads are back on, that you flush the block, pull the sensors, put a hose up againat the holes $ blast it about 3 times. A lot of crud will come out.
	Posted on: 2011/2/7 15:12
	_________________ Every man dies but not every man lives.
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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#32
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	I'll do that Bill. Went and got the springs, retainers and keys today then dropped the heads off at the machine shop.
	Posted on: 2011/2/7 21:00

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flyboy	Re: Head gaskets?!	#33
Elite Guru Westmont, Il. 2632 Posts Member since: 2008/9/28 12:47	I did the same thing with the coolant, ha. Took the knock sensor and drain plug out after I flooded the cylinders. I'm not an expert on cylinder walls but I had some small scratches on 4+6 that sound just like you describe on 52k engine. Not deep enough to feel with my fingernail and the bores looked perfect other wise. 10k later and the motor is fine. No oil consumption, good compression. I had forgotten all about those scratches.
	Posted on: 2011/2/8 2:12
	_________________ '91coupe, LT4Hotcam, some other stuff. If it's too loud, you're too old. "He works on old cars, then junks 'em"
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BillH	Re: Head gaskets?!	#34
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: JeffK wrote: I'll do that Bill. Went and got the springs, retainers and keys today then dropped the heads off at the machine shop. Be real careful when loosening the knock sensors for the first time, they're easy to break. I'd suggest a socket and breaker bar to loosen them the first 1/4 turn, make sure you hold the socket up tight against the sensor so that it doesn't cock at an angle when you pull the breaker bar/ratchet. Don't remove the factory sealant in the threads. There's plenty there for reuse and more sealant may reduce the sensor's effectiveness. Mine have been off/on 3 times with no additional sealant. And these are pipe threads - torque is 14 ft.lbs.
	Posted on: 2011/2/8 15:37
	_________________ Every man dies but not every man lives.
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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#35
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	Got my boxes from Summit today. The new Allen bolts should be here on Thursday so I don't have to F! with those Torx anymore!!
	Posted on: 2011/2/8 23:57

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Matatk	Re: Head gaskets?!	#36
Webmaster SW Chicago Burbs 22803 Posts Member since: 2008/1/7 0:00	Hopefully the allen bolts come with a nice long allen key to use. If not, do yourself a favor and get a set of bondhus ball end allen keys. Matthew
	Posted on: 2011/2/9 3:40
	_________________ 2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP
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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#37
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	Quote: Matatk wrote: Hopefully the allen bolts come with a nice long allen key to use. If not, do yourself a favor and get a set of bondhus ball end allen keys. Matthew That is the plan. I figure that with the ball end it will be easier to get onto them than the Torx. Anyone know what size thread chaser I need to chase the head bolt threads in the block??
	Posted on: 2011/2/9 13:38

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rayquayle	Re: Head gaskets?!	#38
Senior Guru 139 Posts Member since: 2006/4/9 0:00	Quote: JeffK wrote: Anyone know what size thread chaser I need to chase the head bolt threads in the block?? 7/16-14
	Posted on: 2011/2/9 17:49
	_________________ Ray Quayle in England '86 Indy PaceCar, 4+3 NCM Founder #2896 NCM Lifetime #672 Graduate of Gordon's School
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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#39
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	Thank you! Anyone have any input on the lifters? Should I change them or should they be fine? Anyway to check them since I'm this far?
	Posted on: 2011/2/11 1:02

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Jeffvette	Re: Head gaskets?!	#40
Elite Guru Not on CF 1297 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 0:00	Unless you see excessive wear characteristics on the lifter they should be fine. If you do want to replace, order a set of the LS7 lifters. They are around 100 bucks per set. Make sure you soak them in oil for a day before installing.
	Posted on: 2011/2/11 2:05

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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#41
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	I always get so distracted watching your avatar! I will take a peek at the lifters this weekend. Thanks!
	Posted on: 2011/2/11 17:38

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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#42
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	Picking up the heads tomorrow. Roller rockers and hardened p-rods should be here too. Won't have a chance to work on it until Wednesday night. I should have had everything cleaned up and ready to reassemble by now but that didn't happen.
	Posted on: 2011/2/14 20:30

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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#43
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	Picked up the heads today. They are all nice and clean. He put a heli-coil in the #8 plug hole, installed the LT4 springs, new valve seals, 5 angle valve job and even ran the roller rockers through his parts washer for me. Might start putting it back together tomorrow night. Still have to clean up the block. Chase head bolt threads, etc.
	Posted on: 2011/2/15 21:44

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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#44
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	Got some silver header paint since the paint that Dad and I initially put on them burnt off about 30 seconds after we fired it up. Got the tap for the head bolt holes. Some new heater hose since one of mine looks like a balloon. I guessed that it's 3/4" size. Got a new fitting for the heater hose on the intake manifold since the one on there is cruded up pretty good. A new bottle of anti-seize. gonna have a good night..I hope. I could not find any wire loom that didn't look like it would melt instantly though. I want to try recovering that thick bundle that goes behind the right side of the engine since mine is all crumbling.
	Posted on: 2011/2/16 19:32

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flyboy	Re: Head gaskets?!	#45
Elite Guru Westmont, Il. 2632 Posts Member since: 2008/9/28 12:47	I've used this Thero-tec stuff. It can be slit and formed around the wiring. Comes in silver and diff. dia. also. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/THE-17101/
	Posted on: 2011/2/16 20:21

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Matatk	Re: Head gaskets?!	#46
Webmaster SW Chicago Burbs 22803 Posts Member since: 2008/1/7 0:00	Quote: JeffK wrote: Got some silver header paint since the paint that Dad and I initially put on them burnt off about 30 seconds after we fired it up. Yeah, that'll burn off too. It did on mine even with the "high temp header" paint.
	Posted on: 2011/2/17 2:06
	_________________ 2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP
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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#47
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	Quote: Matatk wrote: Quote: JeffK wrote: Got some silver header paint since the paint that Dad and I initially put on them burnt off about 30 seconds after we fired it up. Yeah, that'll burn off too. It did on mine even with the "high temp header" paint. Well damn, maybe I won't waste the time. That paint isn't cheap either. $9 a can. Spent a couple of hours in the garage last night and all I accomplished was getting the intake manifold cleaned up.
	Posted on: 2011/2/17 12:28

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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#48
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	Got more shiny pieces today. Had to get talls to fit the rollers. $60 on Fleabay. Attach file: valve cover 1.JPG (164.59 KB) valve cover 2.JPG (221.30 KB) valve cover 3.JPG (294.34 KB)
	Posted on: 2011/2/18 18:40

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rklessdriver	Re: Head gaskets?!	#49
Senior Guru Woodbridge, VA 1318 Posts Member since: 2008/1/4 0:00	Those look real good. Be careful of the (lack of) clearance with the tall rocker covers and the wiper motor. Will
	Posted on: 2011/2/18 18:56
	_________________ 1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station.
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JeffK	Re: Head gaskets?!	#50
Elite Guru High Point, NC 1440 Posts Member since: 2010/6/18 12:27	Quote: rklessdriver wrote: Those look real good. Be careful of the (lack of) clearance with the tall rocker covers and the wiper motor. Will These are about 3 1/2" tall. I was wondering about the AC compressor too. Was lurking around on the other forum and it looks like member Agent86 has these same valve covers. Hopefully I won't have any clearance issues.
	Posted on: 2011/2/18 19:26

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