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bogus Brakes
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I am getting ready to do brakes on my 92.

I already have GS front calipers and am considering a C5 upgrade.

With 13" rotors, how much wheel clearance do I need?

I already have SS lines... I will just need the calipers and brakets made.

Thanks!
Posted on: 2011/4/4 3:14
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Matatk Re: Brakes
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Clearance at the rim or what? Jeff might have the specs since he was/is selling the brackets.
Posted on: 2011/4/4 3:43
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bogus Re: Brakes
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That's what I was after.

I have the American Racing Torq Thrust M's. And they seem to have about 1/2" of clearance to the rim...

My question - is that enough?
Posted on: 2011/4/4 5:03
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Matatk Re: Brakes
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As far as I recall, most of the aftermarket 17" rims will clear. I will have to measure my rim/clearance.

Matthew
Posted on: 2011/4/4 12:41
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bogus Re: Brakes
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Cool. I think I will be ok....
Posted on: 2011/4/4 20:15
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biggrizzly Re: Brakes
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How much better are the C5 calipers from the GS? You got any specifications... I'm just curious
Posted on: 2011/4/4 22:58
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Raidmagic Re: Brakes
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I have the C-5 brakes on my car and love them. They are way better than the early C-4 brakes. They clear my ZR-1 wheels with no problems. I wouldn't think the TT2's would give you a problem.
Posted on: 2011/4/4 23:14
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bogus Re: Brakes
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Don does ask a good question... are the C5 brakes better enough over C4 GS brakes?

I don't know... Thoughts?
Posted on: 2011/4/4 23:25
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Matatk Re: Brakes
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Quote:

bogus wrote:
Don does ask a good question... are the C5 brakes better enough over C4 GS brakes?

I don't know... Thoughts?


I can't answer that. I upgraded mine over the stock base brakes and the difference was night and day. I couldn't believe it. Some guys say they wouldn't invest the money for gs-c5/6, but I say why not? You can do it on the cheap for $300. Even buying new stuff is only like $600.
Posted on: 2011/4/5 1:56
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bogus Re: Brakes
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It's a tough call... for me, they are the same basic caliper... 2 piston units... on a 13" rotor. It's not like the rotor gets bigger or the swept area gets bigger.

I just checked a bunch of data over at CAC... interesting stuff... and enough to tell me that C5 brakes are not worth it.

C&D got a C4 LT4 from 70-0 in 164ft. They tested 2 different early C5s, 163ft and 158ft.

Even a C5/Z06 did only 152ft from 70. Sure, it's better, but how much of that is tire and how much chassis vs how much the brakes?

If I do good pads, I will exceed any number from a stock C4 setup.

Now, if this was a pre-1988 car... I could see the benefits, big time.
Posted on: 2011/4/5 5:17
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James93LT1 Re: Brakes
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C4 calipers (both HD and standard) has 1.5" pistons, total caliper piston surface area of 3.53 sq in.
C5 calipers has 1.75" pistons, total caliper piston surface area of 4.81 sq in.

C4 rotors weigh 20.5 lbs, and is 1.11" inch thick.
C5 rotors weigh 18.9 lbs, and is 1.25" inch thick,
said to run cooler.
http://www.superchevyperformance.com/v/misc/c4c5rot.html

C5 has a larger brake pad surface area.
http://www.superchevyperformance.com/v/misc/c4c5pads.jpg

I do not know the performance difference between the J55 and the C5, since I went from the standard brake to the C5.
But when i did the change, there was a huge difference.

I thought it was one of the better bang for the bucks mod.
Posted on: 2011/4/5 8:41
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Raidmagic Re: Brakes
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Quote:

bogus wrote:

Now, if this was a pre-1988 car... I could see the benefits, big time.


No doubt, they make early C-4 brakes look silly. Here are some pics from my swap.


Resized Image


Resized Image


Resized Image


Resized Image
Posted on: 2011/4/5 11:34
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ttpfi Re: Brakes
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I just completed a J-55 swap to C-5, there is no comparison. The C-5 setup is the way to go. I got a set of C-5 rotors and brake pads from brake **** they had a sale. Good products and great stopping. Replace your rear pads and rotors also- they do make a difference.
Posted on: 2011/4/5 11:43
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Matatk Re: Brakes
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Good info, guys!

ttp - you can post the name of the vendor you bought from if you thought they had good prices and customer service
Posted on: 2011/4/5 13:11
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BillH Re: Brakes
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Quote:

bogus wrote:
It's a tough call... for me, they are the same basic caliper... 2 piston units... on a 13" rotor. It's not like the rotor gets bigger or the swept area gets bigger.

I just checked a bunch of data over at CAC... interesting stuff... and enough to tell me that C5 brakes are not worth it.

C&D got a C4 LT4 from 70-0 in 164ft. They tested 2 different early C5s, 163ft and 158ft.

Even a C5/Z06 did only 152ft from 70. Sure, it's better, but how much of that is tire and how much chassis vs how much the brakes?

If I do good pads, I will exceed any number from a stock C4 setup.

Now, if this was a pre-1988 car... I could see the benefits, big time.


Thought you had HPS's on, right?

Any upgrade from the base brakes (including pads) make a "big" improvement but only because tha base brakes suck.

The C5 upgrade makes another improvement but is still not that great. But it's a bang for the bucks thing, anything above the C5 is expensive but gets you away from the sliding calipers.
Posted on: 2011/4/5 13:16
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bogus Re: Brakes
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Yes, I am running HPS pads.

However, the C5 caliper is large compared to the single piston 12" brake of old!

hm... Superior Chevy used to have a comparison on their site of all the different C4 calipers. The difference between the standard C4 and the GS caliper was significant.

I like Bill's comment - aim above the C5 and get away from sliding calipers all together.

I think I will put my money into keeping the GS brakes for now... and consider a more significant upgrade later. Because that WOULD require a wheel enlargement, and I am not in that mood right now.
Posted on: 2011/4/5 17:19
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bogus Re: Brakes
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My plan... HPS+ pads, the next step up, track and autocross, but also streetable.

Powerslot cryo rotors.

I already have ATE blue fluid. Should get another bottle.

Already have the DRM spring, too.

Thoughts?
Posted on: 2011/4/5 20:05
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BillH Re: Brakes
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Quote:

bogus wrote:
My plan... HPS+ pads, the next step up, track and autocross, but also streetable.

Powerslot cryo rotors.

I already have ATE blue fluid. Should get another bottle.

Already have the DRM spring, too.

Thoughts?


I assume you mean HP+. 50/50 weither you will find them acceptable on the street. They need just a bit more heat to work well. And brake squeal is a possibility.
Hawk doesn't recommend them on the street but a bunch of guys run them.

You could switch between the + & S if you wanted to do the work to go to a few events. Some do. Gotta rebed on the way to the track.

I just ran 2 - half hour sessions yesterday with HPS and really, really old fluid. I was running at 80% which was faster than the other new insrtuctors were running. No fade.
Posted on: 2011/4/5 23:26
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bogus Re: Brakes
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They seem to be recommended for the street as a safe way to get too/from the track. No need to swap out.

I don't care about a little noise or dust, really. That's what simple green is all about. Keep'n them rims CLEAN!

I will think about pads a little bit, the HPS were holding fairly well, but did stink up the joint. My fluid is old... so that added to the mix.
Posted on: 2011/4/6 18:43
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BillH Re: Brakes
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Quote:

bogus wrote:
I will think about pads a little bit, the HPS were holding fairly well, but did stink up the joint.


Really? On the street?

I haven't smelled anything from mine since I bedded them.
Posted on: 2011/4/6 23:17
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bogus Re: Brakes
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I meant on track! My bad!
Posted on: 2011/4/7 0:18
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BillH Re: Brakes
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Quote:

bogus wrote:
I meant on track! My bad!


Overusage?
Posted on: 2011/4/7 0:23
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bogus Re: Brakes
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No, 5 laps at Willow, and slowing from ~90mph back to 30mph for the hard 150* left that is turn 1.
Posted on: 2011/4/7 1:06
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biggrizzly Re: Brakes
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I know a lot of people go directly from a standard early caliper to a C5 and skip the whole J55 or Grand Sport Caliper. Also, the GS caliper is slightly different than the J55. Below is the link to the photos at Superior Chevrolet.

Superior Chevrolet Caliper Comparison

Well when I changed from my standard caliper to the GS Calipers it too was a significant difference. I had a long time Corvette mechanic from Sport Chevrolet work with me on these and Frank said too that most of the "significant" difference in feel was from the HPS pads and new flushed brake fluid. Not the calipers. So, when people go changing brakes and replace pads and fluid, that may be blurring the Seat of Pants feel to new brakes.

I'm not dissing the C5 upgrade, just saying for a guy with GS calipers it might not be such a money-wise upgrade. And I also think Bill is onto something about going with an entirely different brake setup altogether.
Posted on: 2011/4/7 1:32
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BillH Re: Brakes
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Quote:

bogus wrote:
No, 5 laps at Willow, and slowing from ~90mph back to 30mph for the hard 150* left that is turn 1.


Sorry for the jest. But many newer track drivers overuse their brakes. I spend a lot of time on the intercom telling drivers "Off the brakes" or "wait to brake". This does tend to heat up the pads.
Posted on: 2011/4/7 2:18
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Steve40th Re: Brakes
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I think it is a valid upgrade. I went from the factory 12 inch rotors, to GS calipers and rotors, then to C5 brakes on my C4. I warped the C4 stuff fairly easy, at autocrossing and when trying to slow down from 120 mph runs at the drag strip.
I have had ss lines,good brake fluid in all set ups, and only two tires, BFG KD's and Firestone SZ50's. I have used several different pads. if I wasnt racing the J55/GS set up with new fluid and Hawk pads are just fine.
For HPDE, spend the money on real brake system. Unless you do it once or twice a year.
Also, the C6 calipers are better than the C5's as they tend to spread easily on HPDE type events.
Posted on: 2011/4/7 6:17
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biggrizzly Re: Brakes
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Good info Steve. I think if I ever dabble into HPDE like my buddies are, I will either upgrade to entirely different brakes or buy a different car. I hate to go up to the C5 brakes for marginal differences when there are other options out there that will provide better results. Year ago I should have upgraded to the C5 brakes when I did the GS upgrade but at that time not too many people were doing the C5 upgrade and it was untested waters for the most part.
Posted on: 2011/4/7 11:07
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BillH Re: Brakes
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Quote:

Steve40th wrote:
I think it is a valid upgrade. I went from the factory 12 inch rotors, to GS calipers and rotors, then to C5 brakes on my C4. I warped the C4 stuff fairly easy, at autocrossing and when trying to slow down from 120 mph runs at the drag strip.
I have had ss lines,good brake fluid in all set ups, and only two tires, BFG KD's and Firestone SZ50's. I have used several different pads. if I wasnt racing the J55/GS set up with new fluid and Hawk pads are just fine.
For HPDE, spend the money on real brake system. Unless you do it once or twice a year.
Also, the C6 calipers are better than the C5's as they tend to spread easily on HPDE type events.


I agree, any upgrade is valid. Also on the C6 calipers.

For HPDE's, it depends on your driving level and like Steve said, the number of events. Most guys here run 5-6 events with stock or a slight upgrade. Guys that are running timed laps (Club Trails/Time Trials) usually upgrade to the whole system.
Posted on: 2011/4/7 13:26
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BillH Re: Brakes
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Quote:

biggrizzly wrote:
Good info Steve. I think if I ever dabble into HPDE like my buddies are, I will either upgrade to entirely different brakes or buy a different car.


There's no need to do so for your first year unless you really want to. 90% of HPDE drivers are running stock or maybe upgraded pads.
Posted on: 2011/4/7 13:31
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bogus Re: Brakes
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Ok... as I stated above, I am sticking with the C4 GS brakes for now.

In the future, I will plan for a real upgrade, either to C6 bits or pure aftermarket, with 4 or more pistons. Doing that, though, will require another wheel upgrade.
Posted on: 2011/4/7 17:38
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Churchkey Re: Brakes
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C5 caliper pistons are 40.5mm diameter
Converted = 1.62 diameter.

To find the sq in to calculate the hydraulic ratio between master cylinder & calipers.

Using caliper piston diameter 1.62 & equation
R squared X pi.

Piston sq in = 2.06 X 4 pistons = 8.245 (rounded)

Master cylinder sq in

3/4 = .44

7/8 = .60

15/16 = .735

Divide the master cylinder sq inch into the total
caliper sq in.

If using a 7/8" bore master cylinder the hydraulic ratio with C5 calipers will be 13.74

As a comp, stock 2 pot calipers with 1.5 inch pistons & using a 7/8 master cylinder the hydraulic ratio = 11.78

IMHO a ratio in the 14 to 1 range is ideal for power assisted brakes.

Manual discs require a hydraulic ratio in the 17-18 to 1 range.

Luck with your projects.
Posted on: 2011/4/8 2:40
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CentralCoaster Re: Brakes
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I would also be concerned about the larger piston diameter on the C5 calipers.

It will give you more unwanted front bias. The car might "feel" like it stops harder, due to the extra pitch associated with overbraking the fronts, but in theory will in fact, take longer to stop. (And potentially activate your abs prematurely up front).
Posted on: 2011/4/8 2:47
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CentralCoaster Re: Brakes
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Quote:


I assume you mean HP+. 50/50 weither you will find them acceptable on the street. They need just a bit more heat to work well. And brake squeal is a possibility.
Hawk doesn't recommend them on the street but a bunch of guys run them.


Those HP+ probably have more cold friction than the shit at autozone. I don't see the need for concern. Hawk unfortunately doesn't publish friction tables for their compounds, they just have some stupid rating system.
Posted on: 2011/4/8 2:50
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BillH Re: Brakes
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Quote:

CentralCoaster wrote:
Those HP+ probably have more cold friction than the shit at autozone.


Very true.
Posted on: 2011/4/8 13:57
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bogus Re: Brakes
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A few years back, I tested those cheap $20.00 pads from AZ... OMG. What junk. Fresh everything, and it felt like I no brakes.

I replaced with Hawk within a week, and just swapping pads out, was all took. I had brakes again.

Those pads should not be sold. Period.
Posted on: 2011/4/8 16:31
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bogus Re: Brakes
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Quote:

Churchkey wrote:
C5 caliper pistons are 40.5mm diameter
Converted = 1.62 diameter.

To find the sq in to calculate the hydraulic ratio between master cylinder & calipers.

Using caliper piston diameter 1.62 & equation
R squared X pi.

Piston sq in = 2.06 X 4 pistons = 8.245 (rounded)

Master cylinder sq in

3/4 = .44

7/8 = .60

15/16 = .735

Divide the master cylinder sq inch into the total
caliper sq in.

If using a 7/8" bore master cylinder the hydraulic ratio with C5 calipers will be 13.74

As a comp, stock 2 pot calipers with 1.5 inch pistons & using a 7/8 master cylinder the hydraulic ratio = 11.78

IMHO a ratio in the 14 to 1 range is ideal for power assisted brakes.

Manual discs require a hydraulic ratio in the 17-18 to 1 range.

Luck with your projects.


Nice formula to keep in mind! Thanks!
Posted on: 2011/4/8 16:32
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bogus Re: Brakes
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Quote:

CentralCoaster wrote:
I would also be concerned about the larger piston diameter on the C5 calipers.

It will give you more unwanted front bias. The car might "feel" like it stops harder, due to the extra pitch associated with overbraking the fronts, but in theory will in fact, take longer to stop. (And potentially activate your abs prematurely up front).


How very true. The illusion is far more dangerous here.
Posted on: 2011/4/8 16:33
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Steve40th Re: Brakes
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Quote:

bogus wrote:
Quote:

CentralCoaster wrote:
I would also be concerned about the larger piston diameter on the C5 calipers.

It will give you more unwanted front bias. The car might "feel" like it stops harder, due to the extra pitch associated with overbraking the fronts, but in theory will in fact, take longer to stop. (And potentially activate your abs prematurely up front).


How very true. The illusion is far more dangerous here.

Doesnt the DRM brake bias spring alleviate some of this?
Regardless, I was happy that I wasnt warping rotors anymore.
Posted on: 2011/4/8 16:43
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bogus Re: Brakes
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AHA! Warping rotors... won't happen.

Think about it for a moment... rotors are made of iron. Iron has a melting point c2800F!!!

Rotors on a street car may touch 1800F.

Too low.

What is happening is that the pads transfer materials onto the rotor, emulating a warped rotor. And when you are turning them, the material coming off is pad material......
Posted on: 2011/4/8 19:11
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biggrizzly Re: Brakes
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Posted on: 2011/4/8 19:18
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Steve40th Re: Brakes
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biggrizzly wrote:
I agree... so do these guys

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml

great article. The Blanchard grounding process was something someone told me to do years ago. Most brake places gave me the dear in headlight look. Maybe a machine shop would have been more appropriate.
here is another thread with pictures etc and explanation on this process.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsch ... hard-grinding-rotors.html
Posted on: 2011/4/8 19:26
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bogus Re: Brakes
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yes, that article is where I got my info from... a long time ago.

I just ordered up the best of the best... The big 11" finned drums, the sintered metallic shoes... man, I am going to be the man on the street, eh?
Posted on: 2011/4/8 19:54
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BillH Re: Brakes
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bogus wrote:
AHA! Warping rotors... won't happen.


I've been telling guys this for years. And you can't even get a guy to put a dial on the rotors to check it.

The myth will persist..............

Luckly, on some forums, people willing to listen.
Posted on: 2011/4/8 20:34
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Steve40th Re: Brakes
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bogus wrote:
AHA! Warping rotors... won't happen.

Think about it for a moment... rotors are made of iron. Iron has a melting point c2800F!!!

Rotors on a street car may touch 1800F.

Too low.

What is happening is that the pads transfer materials onto the rotor, emulating a warped rotor. And when you are turning them, the material coming off is pad material......

have you seen me drive, 2800 degrees, thats on the way to work. LOL
Posted on: 2011/4/8 20:39
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bogus Re: Brakes
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Yes, Steve. I have seen you drive. And no, Steve, you ain't hitting 2800F... if you were, the tires would melt off.
Posted on: 2011/4/8 21:13
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Steve40th Re: Brakes
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bogus wrote:
Yes, Steve. I have seen you drive. And no, Steve, you ain't hitting 2800F... if you were, the tires would melt off.

I am just busting your chops. LOL
Posted on: 2011/4/8 22:38
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jaa1992 Re: Brakes
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bogus wrote:
Don does ask a good question... are the C5 brakes better enough over C4 GS brakes?

I don't know... Thoughts?


All I can say is my J55's are good enough to slow my 3500 lbs from 130ish to 60 in 150ish feet (back straight Road Atl into turn 10A and is downhill)

My brake upgrade will be to a 6 piston/4 piston setup.

I need to put my C5 upgrade kit together and sell it to get it out of the "spare" parts shed
Posted on: 2011/4/10 22:05
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Steve40th Re: Brakes
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jaa1992 wrote:
Quote:

bogus wrote:
Don does ask a good question... are the C5 brakes better enough over C4 GS brakes?

I don't know... Thoughts?


All I can say is my J55's are good enough to slow my 3500 lbs from 130ish to 60 in 150ish feet (back straight Road Atl into turn 10A and is downhill)

My brake upgrade will be to a 6 piston/4 piston setup.

I need to put my C5 upgrade kit together and sell it to get it out of the "spare" parts shed

The real question is, how many times can you do it though, before those fancy 6 pistons become a non luxury, but necessary. LOL
Posted on: 2011/4/11 1:21
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bogus Re: Brakes
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Steve40th wrote:
Quote:

bogus wrote:
Yes, Steve. I have seen you drive. And no, Steve, you ain't hitting 2800F... if you were, the tires would melt off.

I am just busting your chops. LOL


yea, well, I'm bust'n your's back!
Posted on: 2011/4/11 5:56
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bogus Re: Brakes
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Quote:

Steve40th wrote:
Quote:

jaa1992 wrote:
Quote:

bogus wrote:
Don does ask a good question... are the C5 brakes better enough over C4 GS brakes?

I don't know... Thoughts?


All I can say is my J55's are good enough to slow my 3500 lbs from 130ish to 60 in 150ish feet (back straight Road Atl into turn 10A and is downhill)

My brake upgrade will be to a 6 piston/4 piston setup.

I need to put my C5 upgrade kit together and sell it to get it out of the "spare" parts shed

The real question is, how many times can you do it though, before those fancy 6 pistons become a non luxury, but necessary. LOL


That is the question.

I would suspect after about 10 laps and regret may set in.
Posted on: 2011/4/11 5:58
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