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| jaa1992 | Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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Out at TGPR this past weekend, second session, first timed lap
 Comming out of a tight right hander Absolutely NO power, reall loud clunky noises. Hiccupped a couple of times and power is back. Comming down the front straight turn in for turn one as a start the turn engine goes to 0 (zero) RPM Pull it off in the grass to the left so I don't kill the session. Did not drop oil on the track so no "rods thru the block" Tried to start and it sortta turns over but sounds like no compression Well that lasted 4 track weekends Budget is no where near enough to bore and stroke the original engine so I've got questions: My original LT1 engine has over 115K, last time I had the heads off the cylinders still had the original crosshatch pattern with no visible wear. So my idea is have it taken apart, cleaned, new bearings, replace any worn parts. Goals: 300ish RWHP, able to stay at 5000 rpm 30 min, 5 times per day, 20 days per year, for 3 years or more (yea I know wishful thinking on longevity) Question: The lifters were starting to stick - what is the best bang for the buck to replace them? I have 1.6 roller tip rockers, thinking about moving the 1.6 roller rockers from the 383 to the 350. Is it a waste of time, should I just get a new set, or leave the roller tip rockers? Cam - any reccomendations for a decent cam for heads and intake that have not been ported? Along the same thinking should I upgrade the cam drive so it uses a pin to drive the opti vs the strange gap in the 92 opti? What else needs to be changed to make it work? Any other Ideas? I need to keep the "pull engine, freshen ol LT1, put fresh LT1 in" costs to Under $3k. |
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Posted on: 2011/5/23 2:19
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| Matatk | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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As far as cost, will you be doing the engine pull/reinstall? That makes a big difference with budget. You can probably get by without boring it, hard to say, but I would probably bore it. Check the crank to see if it needs to be turned. It's hard to guesstimate without all the info. See what the machinist recommends.
For lifters, get the stock replacement LS7 lifters. I think they are like $130 a set. You rocker arms should be fine. I have roller tips on my 383. Hot about a hotcam? I can't really answer the opti swap question. |
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Posted on: 2011/5/23 2:25
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| bogus | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
 
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are you sure it's blown? Did it restart?
It also sounds like fuel starvation. As for engine rebuild, you get what you pay for. You may be better off getting a used shortblock from say, Vette2vette.com and slowly rebuilding your existing engine. |
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Posted on: 2011/5/23 2:31
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| 383tpimachine | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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Master Guru
 
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Ls7 lifters can be had for $100 or less if you watch ls1tech.com
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Posted on: 2011/5/23 4:06
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| bogus | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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upon reread, I am betting you munched the timing chain.
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Posted on: 2011/5/23 5:37
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| Durango_Boy | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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Before budgets are considered you need to determine what's wrong and that's pretty much free.
Start at the top and bottom working your way into the engine until you find something wrong. Start by testing for fuel pressure, spark, and connections at the throttle body. Pull the valve covers looking for broken or bent studs or rods. Drain the oil, check for metal / debris, and drop the pan looking for chunks. Rotate the engine by hand, listen for metal on metal, or clanking, try to isolate the anything specific. Speculating is fine on a worst case scenario, but you have no idea what's wrong so guessing is moot. |
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Posted on: 2011/5/23 10:35
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| djxib | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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Oh no - sorry to hear about the engine problem Jim.
Maybe pop a valve cover and crank the engine - that way you'll see if the timing chain has indeed been munched. Let me know if you need some help - my engine build is still a few weeks from completion so my weekends are 'spare'. Good luck! |
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Posted on: 2011/5/23 11:24
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Andy 1996 Greenwood Collectors Edition LT4 Previously 1992 Convertible Polo Green. 383 LT1/LT4 forged/balanced. V7-YSi, Alky. 608RWHP... Now sitting at a dismantler with a salvage title. Still runs... |
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| BillH | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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Quote:
Sucks about your motor but at 115k, you know.... You would need to change the timing cover, the hole where the drive comes thru is larger than the 92. I think the entire drive that attaches to cam will be needed too. You might want to PM Jon (SpectatorRacing), I know he's done the conversion on his racecar. On checking the bores, the crosshatch may still be there when you pull the heads but the only to be accurate is to use a bore gauge. Cylinder taper and out of round are the important things. Will you be doing the engine teardown yourself? And what DB said, fine out what's wrong, then you can get a better idea of the budget. Good Luck |
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Posted on: 2011/5/23 13:29
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| jaa1992 | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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Quote:
Clarification - this was a 383 LT1 that died. The Original LT1 is just a tired old engine sitting at the shop. No restart and it really didn't like to turn over when I tried. Fuel starvation - I thought that on my first session because it hiccuped a couple times. put 4.5 more gallons in it just before this run. I'm going for inexpensive - not cheap, just want to be back on track in 3 weeks. |
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Posted on: 2011/5/23 18:29
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| jaa1992 | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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Yea, plan A is to look at it this weekend while its on the trailer. I was just too bummed to check anything at the track. Maybe I'll luck out and its just a flippen fuse |
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Posted on: 2011/5/23 18:36
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| 1Fast04Vert | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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Unfortunately it sounds like a terminal illness. But we can always hope for the best.
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Posted on: 2011/5/23 18:38
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| rklessdriver | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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Best bet is to do some diagnostics.
First thing I'd suspect since yours is a LTX - Is the Opti rotor blowing up... So check it for spark. If thats OK then I'd start checking for compression. Will |
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Posted on: 2011/5/23 20:51
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1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station. |
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| jaa1992 | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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I had a thought on the way home from work that it could also be the ICM & coil - had that problem before. Even though they are fairly new its a possibility.
On the opti it was new when I put the 383 in. No opti codes, actually no codes that are new (have some historical ones about the cluster dimming circuit, nothing else) Keep the ideas comming - I'm listening (OBTW - its not a fuse, that I checked at the track because I carry a bunch with me) |
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Posted on: 2011/5/23 22:27
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| bogus | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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The opti won't throw a code if the problem is high voltage related.
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Posted on: 2011/5/23 22:50
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| rklessdriver | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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Quote:
Precisely! A lot of time the rotors fly apart and all the pieces banging around in the cap make a crap load of noise. Sometimes the cars will run on for a second until it completely self distructs as well.... The first thing Id do is check for spark at the coil (prove the Opti low res/trigger signal, coil and ICM), if thats good - and with no opti codes it should be.... If not that tells me it could be bad sensor in the Opti, bad coil, bad ICM OR (worst case) that it may not be turning because of a possible broken timing chain. Keep in mid if the timing chain is broken youll have NO oil pressure as well. If there is fire at the coil - then check for fire at the plug (prove the spark distribution is good). No spark there means pull the cap off the opti. Will |
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Posted on: 2011/5/24 1:53
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1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station. |
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| jaa1992 | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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OK, the 383 is dead
crank and watch for rockers to move and they stayed as still as rocks So at least timing chain. So no we come to the quandry: Engine 1 - 383 with at least a broke timing chain Engine 2 - 350 OEM with over 110K miles Needs to be running in two weeks Option 1 - replace timing chain on engine 1 and hope for the best. Can this be done with the engine in the car? Option 2 - have the 350 refreshed, assuming it doesn't need bored Thoughts? |
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Posted on: 2011/5/28 15:17
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| rklessdriver | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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No spark or compression because the cam isn't turning....
This is bad for the 383 because the oil pump runs off the cam and if you let it "wind down" to a stop with no oil pressure it could have damaged the brgs/crank/rods. Also most likely some of the valves are bent because there is no way it didn't smack a few of them when the chain snapped. Options as I see it once you pull the 383 - if it's junk you have to do this anyways, so just pull it out and make certain of what kind of damage control your dealing with. 1. Pull the pan and check the brgs. If good: 2. Pull the heads ad replace any bent valves 3. New timing chain 4. Reinstall 383 If brgs are torn up or worse freshen stock LT1 Will |
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Posted on: 2011/5/28 15:46
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1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station. |
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| Jeffvette | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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My thoughts, throw the factory LT1 in there until after your event.
Unless: You have a good head guy nearby who can get yours repaired asap. You can replace the timing chain in the car, a little tight but doable. What chain were you running? |
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Posted on: 2011/5/28 19:23
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| jaa1992 | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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Well it looks pretty serious. I was able to drop it off at the shop this afternoon. Rockers not moving at all, no compression, pulled the valve covers off. Ist missing a few push rods and the others are not moving at all.
So he is going to drop a stock LT1 in there, that will get me through the next few weeks. Found a 50k mile one for a few hundred. My original LT1 has a few issues, I'm going to bring it home and learn to rebuild one using it as a start. We'll ship the 383 off to a known builder and go from there. |
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Posted on: 2011/6/10 21:50
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| flyboy | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) | ||
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Posted on: 2011/6/10 22:41
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| jaa1992 | Carnage Pictures | ||
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From the mechanic:
Looks like a lifter shot out into the timing chain area and broke the chain and/or the cam sprocket. With the cam not moving and the piston still in motion, the valves are likely bent as well. Here are the pictures Attach file:  james engine 001.jpg (204.29 KB) james engine 002.jpg (204.58 KB) james engine 003.jpg (203.78 KB) james engine 004.jpg (201.73 KB) |
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Posted on: 2011/6/15 14:13
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| JeffK | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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How does a lifter end up there? you got the beans above the franks son. (sorry bad movie reference)
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Posted on: 2011/6/15 14:42
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| Durango_Boy | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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I'd be very interested to find out how a lifter managed that.
They are retained with dog bone shaped retainers that hold in the lifters as pairs. The retainer will not allow the lifter out while still in place. The retainers are held down by a spring loaded tray with feet, bolted down to the lifter valley spine. The lifters are also held down by the push rods, and even if there wasn't a push rod, spring loaded hold down, and retainers...the cam wouldn't have enough lift to push a lifter all the way out of the bore. Man there would be so many links in the chain reaction that would allow that...not to mention the improbability that the lifter shot out, lined up perfectly with the hole in the front, made it through said hole, and got into the timing assembly. That is just unbelievable. |
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Posted on: 2011/6/15 14:45
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| BillH | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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That sucks James. Good luck on your new motors(s)
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Posted on: 2011/6/15 15:21
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| BillH | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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Quote:
They aren't actually retainers on an LT1 DB (but I see what you're saying), they are guide bars (one bar fits over top of 2 lifters). All they do is keep the lifter oriented correctly (so the roller is square to the cam lobe). What's usually called the lifter hold down just puts tension on the guide bars to keep them from moving around. Though it's fairly beefy metal and could be bent out of the way if the push rod's off the lifter. You could take a wild guess and say something broke, rocker or push rod. Or the piston could have tagged a valve and bent it enough to let the push rod come off the rocker. It is unbelievable that the lifter shot thru that hole especially since it had to also knock out the soft plug in that hole. |
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Posted on: 2011/6/15 15:41
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| bogus | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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That is a one-in-a-million shot. Damn.
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Posted on: 2011/6/15 16:28
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Trae1976 | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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2012 Memorial Day Car Show Winner!
 
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Wow!
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Posted on: 2011/6/15 16:52
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| fox_guy48 | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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HOLY S*** How does one do that
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Posted on: 2011/6/15 17:25
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92 Polo Green, MSD Ignition, 1.6 roller rockers, TPIS Headers, Exhaust, Airfoil, Stage 2 Chip. 
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| Churchkey | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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My oval track engines always had screens over all the gallery holes held in place with epoxy to prevent valve train debris from entering the bottom end. Might be something to consider for the next build.
Do not know your set up however if any sustained rpm over 3K, suggest an oil cooler if you do not currently have one. Also suggest a good trap door oil pan designed for the zig-zag tracks. Luck with your new build. |
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Posted on: 2011/6/15 17:49
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| pianoguy | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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That is pretty damned wacky!
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Posted on: 2011/6/15 20:28
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1996 LT4 �Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.�- Jack Handey |
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| Matatk | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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First time I've ever heard of that. Impressive, if not unfortunate.
Matthew |
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Posted on: 2011/6/15 20:40
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| 1Fast04Vert | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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Jim, looks like you didn't do it just half way. Maybe there is a market for boat anchors over at the lake?
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Posted on: 2011/6/15 20:57
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2004 Vert. 475hp. Built by Vengeance Racing |
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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As stated in your other thread in case you haven't seen it yet, I have lots of parts you can have gratis.
Comp cams lifters (stock LT1 replacement good to 6500 RPM), springs, retainers, gaskets, etc. Let me know if anything is of value to you. |
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Posted on: 2011/6/15 20:57
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| Woodstock | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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Unreal! If there is something like Karma, play the lottery, you'll probably win big
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Posted on: 2011/6/15 21:24
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| jaa1992 | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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I will let you know as soon as I know. I'm sure the lifters retainers and gaskets would come in handy  This one is going to one of the Elliot clan to take apart and see whats salvageable. Then it will be decision time. It just never ends |
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Posted on: 2011/6/15 23:13
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| SJW | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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Dayum. Every time you think you've seen it all, somebody's gotta go and prove ya wrong. Sorry it was you! Major misfortune there. That's about as freaky as any engine failure I can recall seeing...
Live well, SJW |
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Posted on: 2011/6/16 2:02
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| bogus | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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I still can't get over the shear cosmic fate that caused this failure.
Have you gotten the intake off yet? |
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Posted on: 2011/6/16 20:56
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| jaa1992 | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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Quote:
Yep, bits and pieces of the lifter, bent pushrods, etc. Those fingers that try to hold the lifter guides in place moved a bunch on the passenger side. I saw one of them hanging on one of the fingers. I'm going to try and take some pictures tomorrow when I pick up the car. |
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Posted on: 2011/6/17 1:57
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| tjpreul | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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If you are interested I have the timing chain w/sprockets from a '95 that I don't need.
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Posted on: 2011/6/17 2:11
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Vegas wasn't built on winners. '92 auto, MSD, Banski, Taylor wires, SS lines, C5 rims, 3.07 gears, white gauges, seats from a '96. Motor: Forged rotating assy, Probe pistons, CC valvetrain, AFR heads, Procharger P1SC |
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| djxib | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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Jim - I just saw the pictures above. Wow...
Let me know if you need any wrenching - my engine is still a few weeks away so I have some 'spare' time. Cheers |
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Posted on: 2011/6/17 12:36
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Andy 1996 Greenwood Collectors Edition LT4 Previously 1992 Convertible Polo Green. 383 LT1/LT4 forged/balanced. V7-YSi, Alky. 608RWHP... Now sitting at a dismantler with a salvage title. Still runs... |
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| bogus | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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I don't have any internal engine parts, but I have a surplus of gaskets laying about... if you need any, lemme know.
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Posted on: 2011/6/17 14:55
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| 1Fast04Vert | Re: Well it died on Saturday (engine) Carnage Picts added to last post | ||
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Jim, I am going to be pulling my LT1 in about two weeks. Let me know if it will help you.
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Posted on: 2011/6/17 15:30
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2004 Vert. 475hp. Built by Vengeance Racing |
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