87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders [Forums - C4 Technical]

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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#51
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	Grip force was a washout.http://cgi3.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... userid=gripforce-clutches E-mail back suggested I find a good mechanic to install the slave next time I called them and was told they just sell parts. The guy I talked to was just a sales man could not answer any questions about their products. Weird
	Posted on: 2012/3/10 1:34
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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Matatk	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#52
Webmaster SW Chicago Burbs 22803 Posts Member since: 2008/1/7 0:00	You have already replaced every component at least once. Throwing more parts at it is useless. You need to find the cause. I still vote heat related.
	Posted on: 2012/3/10 2:12
	_________________ 2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#53
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	Quote: Matatk wrote: You have already replaced every component at least once. Throwing more parts at it is useless. You need to find the cause. I still vote heat related. I agree with you. My question about cats would it be better to replace them in case they are hotter then normal.(at least 10 years old) We are still looking at upgrading existing heat shield. maybe with heat reflective actions. Any suggestions. Should the line be wrapped to keep it cooler? Will be at a big car show here in town this weekend can usually find odd parts and fixes.
	Posted on: 2012/3/10 2:40
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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Matatk	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#54
Webmaster SW Chicago Burbs 22803 Posts Member since: 2008/1/7 0:00	If the cats are clogged they will be hot. You can check with an infrared heat gun. They make various heat wraps and deflectors. You can try bending up your own heat shields. Might not hurt to get some reflective wrap. Matthew
	Posted on: 2012/3/10 3:14
	_________________ 2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#55
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	[quote] Matatk wrote: If the cats are clogged they will be hot. You can check with an infrared heat gun. They make various heat wraps and deflectors. You can try bending up your own heat shields. Might not hurt to get some reflective wrap. Matthew[quote] This looks very promising.not sure if one is enough for 1 or 2 pre cats http://www.hawkinsspeedshop.com/heat- ... -silica-mylar-finish.html http://www.heatshieldproducts.com/pro ... eves/hp-hose-sleeve/59/44 Attach file: 16500thermotec36.jpg (21.88 KB) hose sleve.jpg (59.85 KB)
	Posted on: 2012/3/10 5:38
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#56
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	Well ordered from summit. Heat shields for lines and Cat http://www.summitracing.com/parts/THE-17062/ http://www.summitracing.com/parts/THE-16500/ It should be here monday or tuesday. Gm does not stock Slave cynlinders for the 87 any more. My last GM one came from a dealer in AZ. Most of the slaves were Dorman. Anyone knoe of a cat shield metal that goes around the pre cat on other vehicles that would fit this model?
	Posted on: 2012/3/10 18:45
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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BillH	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#57
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: Matatk wrote: If the cats are clogged they will be hot. You can check with an infrared heat gun. Matthew If you have an IR gun, with the motor warm, run at 2k for a few minutes, measure where the pipe enters the cat and where the pipe exits the cat. The exit should be hotter, if they are close to being the same temp, the cats are probably clogged.
	Posted on: 2012/3/10 22:07
	_________________ Every man dies but not every man lives.
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BillH	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#58
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: istter1 wrote: Anyone knoe of a cat shield metal that goes around the pre cat on other vehicles that would fit this model? That would be very easy to fab.
	Posted on: 2012/3/10 22:09
	_________________ Every man dies but not every man lives.
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#59
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	Quote: BillH wrote: Quote: Matatk wrote: If the cats are clogged they will be hot. You can check with an infrared heat gun. Matthew If you have an IR gun, with the motor warm, run at 2k for a few minutes, measure where the pipe enters the cat and where the pipe exits the cat. The exit should be hotter, if they are close to being the same temp, the cats are probably clogged. I have an IR gun when we get under it when the parts from summit arrive monday we will check. Quote: istter1 wrote: Anyone know of a cat shield metal that goes around the pre cat on other vehicles that would fit this model [quote] BillH wrote: That would be very easy to fab. [quote] I was going to hit junk yards tomorrow If i knew of one that was simular i could pick it up for a couple dollars. I do agree making one wouls take a few minutes and some straps Thanks
	Posted on: 2012/3/11 0:57
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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Matatk	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#60
Webmaster SW Chicago Burbs 22803 Posts Member since: 2008/1/7 0:00	What Bill said, it's probably easier to bend up your own than try to find one at a junkyard.
	Posted on: 2012/3/11 13:50
	_________________ 2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#61
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	Quote: Matatk wrote: What Bill said, it's probably easier to bend up your own than try to find one at a junkyard. Ya I was just boared.
	Posted on: 2012/3/11 14:34
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#62
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	Well the heat shield parts are here from Summit. Dropped them off at at the shop. John has ordered what he said was an after market genuin GM slave . When it gets here and they install it the heat shields should block the heat from the Cat. May know by the end of the week. Got some good mechanics working on it . Then the test for up to 3 months driving and see if this makes any difference. I know the shop would like to see less of my vehicle. lol
	Posted on: 2012/3/14 2:27
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#63
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	Stopped by the shop today and it looked like John had a new mechanic looking at the problem. New eyes new solutions. Same reason I ask you guys questions. The old shield is double wrapped with Catalitic Heat shield reflector that can withstand 2000 Degrees. The line will be wrapped in a different reflective heat shield. It will be a few more days as they are fitting it in between jobs. This thing is a pain in the butt. Attach file: heat.jpg (268.97 KB)
	Posted on: 2012/3/20 0:01
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#64
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	Quote: istter1 wrote: Stopped by the shop today and it looked like John had a new mechanic looking at the problem. New eyes new solutions. Same reason I ask you guys questions. The old shield is double wrapped with Catalitic Heat shield reflector that can withstand 2000 Degrees. The line will be wrapped in a different reflective heat shield. It will be a few more days as they are fitting it in between jobs. This thing is a pain in the butt. Just got a call from John down at the garage. They replaced the Master and slave both. While bleeding the system with new fluid ten pumps and the fluid turned dark black. . Thank god I am busy with school reports or I would be nutting up. The last line we put in we had made up. John is going to order a new line for my pain in the butt car tomorrow. The last guy that worked on the vett told me he drilled out the spacer that goes between the clutch master and the fire wall. I was told at one time this is used to guide the rod at a certain angel and if it is not correct problems can happen? Anyone know if this true? Steve
	Posted on: 2012/3/20 2:53
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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Matatk	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#65
Webmaster SW Chicago Burbs 22803 Posts Member since: 2008/1/7 0:00	I think the heat shield is a good step in the right direction. As far as the black fluid, what do you mean it turned black? The fluid that was being evacuated? If so that's probably the old fluid. Or did it turn black in the reservoir itself? If so, I'm wondering if there is a blockage somewhere internally.
	Posted on: 2012/3/20 22:11
	_________________ 2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#66
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	Quote: Matatk wrote: I think the heat shield is a good step in the right direction. As far as the black fluid, what do you mean it turned black? The fluid that was being evacuated? If so that's probably the old fluid. Or did it turn black in the reservoir itself? If so, I'm wondering if there is a blockage somewhere internally. Both the clutch and slave cylinders were replaced. The line wasn't replaced so after cleaning it and reusing it the fluid turned dark black. We are just going to put a brand new one on it to cover our bases. I will have the old one rebuilt again and keep it for a spare. We don't want to take a chance with all the new parts and find that we have messed up the new parts with crap in the line. If this doesn't work I have a big hammer and I can start selling dented parts on ebay.
	Posted on: 2012/3/20 22:58
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#67
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	When I get the vett home I have some old street signs I will bend up and insulate the Cat to keep the heat away from the slave.
	Posted on: 2012/3/21 0:15
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#68
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	Quote: Matatk wrote: You have already replaced every component at least once. Throwing more parts at it is useless. You need to find the cause. I still vote heat related. Well new approach. All new parts put in lines everything clean. Same thing. With one person pushing in pedal it appears the slave road "new" is pushing to the side making the cup push in on one side of the slave. John took apart the old slave and found damage to the cylinder wall on one side of the slave. When you look at the rod contacting the pickle fork it does not sit all the way in the whole on the fork end. So ordered a new one from a Chevy dealer in New York City. Will be a while before it arrives. Lol. Now we have replaced or repaired every part in the clutch system. New problem with rear hub bearing. Talking with Alex I told him all we need to do now is find the sound coming from the rear of the vett. Alex is standing on the drivers side rear he grabs the tire to see if the noise will happen when he turns the tire. Lamo the whole tire wabbles and the half shaft moves in and out. The other side has no problem. Sure glad we had it up on the lift and not on the street. I am sure glad you guys told me we buy these C4s because we love them. Attach file: slave 87.jpg (205.56 KB) slave.jpg (337.32 KB)
	Posted on: 2012/3/28 0:36
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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Matatk	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#69
Webmaster SW Chicago Burbs 22803 Posts Member since: 2008/1/7 0:00	Like I said before, I wish I knew about clutch hydraulics but I don't. But it looks like that may be the problem. What is the reason it is applying pressure unevenly or not making proper contact? Is the slave mounted wrong? Perhaps the mounting point is messed up. Is there any evidence of damage? Can you compare it to another vette? Measurements available?
	Posted on: 2012/3/28 3:02
	_________________ 2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#70
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	There may have been a starting point for pickle foark to have been bent slightly. When we lost the first clutch the throw out bearing became lodged in the preasure plate. My son drove the vet back to the house with the clutch plate smoking to high heaven. There was a lot of heat to the pickle fork and preasure exerted to it. We replaced the slave, line and master cylinder several times before the transmission finally 3+4 failed. When we installed the Keisler transmission the warrenty required we check the bellhousing alignment with a dial gauge. It was fine. The picture is not my bellhousing. In the second picture you see the bolt holes in the bellhousing. No damage to this area. The plan is that when the new pickle fork arrives from New York we will be able to compair the two. We will install the new one and see if the alignment is corrected and the rod pushes straight and smoothly. If that doesn't occur the slave cylinder housing mounting plate (on slave) will be ground down until everything is correct and pushes straight and smoothly. Anyone have any other suggestions?? Attach file: tko6002.jpg (322.94 KB) slave bleed.jpg (189.31 KB)
	Posted on: 2012/3/28 4:04
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#71
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	I am going to guess that LD85 is the same guy that posted this on another site? http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forum ... php?p=1261860#post1261860 Did you use the HOWE 82870 TBO with the stock 4+3 belling housing with the 4+3 master cylinder? http://www.performancebodies.com/Prod ... oryName=Clutches&pid=3311 I have the 600 Keisler transmission for my 87
	Posted on: 2012/4/1 4:05
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#72
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	I thought we were ordering a new pickle fork but I was on the wrong page. We ordered a new rod for the slave. The stock rod is about 1/2" shorter then the stock rodJohn said saturday on the lift the alignment was fine. When I showed up this morning the clutch was almost on the floor .Lol. It appears there is still air in the line. They are going to bleed it from the top and try to get more air out. He will let me know what happens. If the pedal won't come up then we will I guess put the rod that came with the slave back in and try to shim it up so the alignment improves. If not then a Hydraulic bearing.. Any advice is worth putting in. Going in today at 3:00 the Dr. to shove a scope up my butt. I am hungry
	Posted on: 2012/4/2 18:18
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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bogus	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#73
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	honey is a clear liquid.
	Posted on: 2012/4/3 2:37
	_________________ The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#74
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	Quote: bogus wrote: honey is a clear liquid. I am still alive same results as 5 years ago. Back to dealing with the Vet again. Nice being on vacation. Will be trying to raise the height of the clutch pedal. Don't know if they did that while I was in the hospital. Hopefully the rear bearing came in going down to see if I can find the lug nut key. I think it is down there in the center counsel some where. The only good thing about this operation is, that say it is ok to pass gas and no one gete mad at you lol
	Posted on: 2012/4/3 16:19
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#75
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	Drivers side rear wheel bearing replaced. It was destroyed. I guess when they go that's it. Still haven't the pedaloff the floor very much . Tomorrow is another day.
	Posted on: 2012/4/4 2:21
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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bogus	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#76
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	I would be surprised if the pedal is a problem. But I would check the pedal's hinge... IIRC, it has a delrin or nylon bushing that may be worn. I can't believe if it is off that it would have this effect. As for the clutch fork, I rather like that as a cause. If it is binding, that will elevate pressure at the hydraulics. All bets are now off and things won't work right. Whereas a pedal issue won't elevate pressure or loads; at least not as much or to the extent to cause this damage. Now, this does raise a question - could both be bad, cause both ends to fail. The odds are, to say the least, staggering. But hey, it is a C4 and they have an alarming tendency to stagger odds. I would be willing to take a step back and reassess. These are elementally basic cars and there is no real reason to over think the solution. Occam's Razor is your friend here.
	Posted on: 2012/4/5 19:53
	_________________ The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#77
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	Quote: bogus wrote: I would be surprised if the pedal is a problem. But I would check the pedal's hinge... IIRC, it has a delrin or nylon bushing that may be worn. I can't believe if it is off that it would have this effect. As for the clutch fork, I rather like that as a cause. If it is binding, that will elevate pressure at the hydraulics. All bets are now off and things won't work right. Whereas a pedal issue won't elevate pressure or loads; at least not as much or to the extent to cause this damage. Now, this does raise a question - could both be bad, cause both ends to fail. The odds are, to say the least, staggering. But hey, it is a C4 and they have an alarming tendency to stagger odds. I would be willing to take a step back and reassess. These are elementally basic cars and there is no real reason to over think the solution. Occam's Razor is your friend here. Well deep subject here. We will see if it works this time. The difference between the slave rod from 87 to now is 1/2 shorter and half the diamenter.We built up the new factory origional rod that just came in almost 1/2' after trying to get a straight push with the other one. This one sits in the saddle center not off to the side as the new one. We took the slave off took it apart to see if it was rubbing on the inside at all. Nothing showing. I have been driving the u know what out of it today in stop and go traffic.. The pedal is a little high (ok with me). When we replaced the system all the other times the fluid in the resivor had already turned black.Heat shield on slave and lines. Wish me luck. I will still be looking for another fork in case this happens again.
	Posted on: 2012/4/5 20:55
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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EngineDoctor	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#78
Master Guru La Habra Ca. 791 Posts Member since: 2012/1/6 1:28	Good luck! Hope you nipped her in the butt ;)
	Posted on: 2012/4/5 21:15

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bogus	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#79
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	Fluid turning black could have been caused by heat... could have been caused by a separate moisture source contaminating it... or the rubber seals were getting cooked by the heat. It is never a bad idea to protect something like this from heat. No question at all. The factory line for my system runs by the left cat, and there is a tab there that retains it. Every time I do an O/C, I check that tab.... I had a line one time fail when it rubbed against the heat shield and blew out! Happened twice, actually. And both times, it was installed by the same jack off. The 2nd time, I was in a pinch, pinned it down to the tang and the teflon core somehow healed itself. Lasted 3 more years that way... most odd.
	Posted on: 2012/4/5 21:23
	_________________ The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#80
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	Quote: bogus wrote The factory line for my system runs by the left cat, and there is a tab there that retains it. Every time I do an O/C, I check that tab.... I had a line one time fail when it rubbed against the heat shield and blew out! Happened twice, actually. And both times, it was installed by the same jack off. The 2nd time, I was in a pinch, pinned it down to the tang and the teflon core somehow healed itself. Lasted 3 more years that way... most odd. The reason it was so cheap when I bought it was there was a pin hole in the line when we were test driving it.It ran out of fluid about 10 miles from his house and he was driving it . The origional owner dropped the peice in half. It is my bank breaker to repair lol
	Posted on: 2012/4/5 23:07
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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bogus	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#81
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	I hate prior owners. Well, except mine, he's pretty cool.
	Posted on: 2012/4/5 23:46
	_________________ The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me
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92Polo	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#82
Guru 91 Posts Member since: 2012/4/17 20:08	One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. With as many times as you have replaced the hydraulics and get the same problem it is safe to say that is not the issue. Something is not aligned causing extreme seal wear or something is allowing or forcing a component to over extend or over retract causung the problem. Take one set of brand new parts and flush it until you get the black fluid since this seems to be repeatable. Then before any more damage is done remove them and take them apart. If the seal in the master cylinder is jacked then you have a master cylinder / pedal alignment or travel problem. If the slave is jacked then you have a slave cylinder alignment or travel problem. There is absolutely no reason why this should be this hard to figure out the system is not rocket science. Take some time and use a logical process rather than throwing parts at it and you will have it fixed in a weekend. You said you had black fluid from just bleeding new components right? That proves that heat is not the main issue, you are wasting your time energy and money going that route. Sure it is not a bad idea but it absolutely will not fix a mechanical problem. Get that fixed and then worry about heat. Please don't get me wrong I am not trying to be rude or mean, sometimes people just need the obvious stated. I think you are on the right track with the fork/rod issue.
	Posted on: 2012/4/22 13:21

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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#83
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	The only thing we haven't done as you stated is replace the Throw out bearing fork. I apears to be in good shape. It takes about two to three months until there is a problem on the average. On the Way to the beach Saturday there was a car show at the high school in Quyama. There were a bunch of cars there from the coast and we were talking cars. We all had things about our cars that drive us nuts. One of the guys there owns a speed shot in santa maria. He gave me a HOWE 82870 THO for free I paid for the lines. He uses it on his Camaro. Made for stock Clutches. Solves cimular problems on his. I agree it does not take a rocket scientest. But we have done the ovious and found out that all the other problem from the pedal and bell housing , clutch rod being bent and a lot of other crap . The ovious isn't always that simple. " Take one set of brand new parts and flush it until you get the black fluid since this seems to be repeatable. Then before any more damage is done remove them and take them apart. If the seal in the master cylinder is jacked then you have a master cylinder / pedal alignment or travel problem. If the slave is jacked then you have a slave cylinder alignment or travel problem." What you said above is the way we did it each time. Evertime it worked better but in the end failed. I am an Entemologist I work with bugs. So this shouldn't bug me right LOL Any help is always accepted. We will put an automatic in and give it away. LOL Jokeing I bought this car to have something to pass the time. Steve Attach file: bushing.jpg (16.16 KB) slave.jpg (337.32 KB) slave 87.jpg (205.56 KB) tko6004.jpg (322.94 KB) tko6001.jpg (273.13 KB)
	Posted on: 2012/4/22 19:23
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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92Polo	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#84
Guru 91 Posts Member since: 2012/4/17 20:08	I read through the whole thread and when I saw this post, it is what the bells go off in my head. Quote: Just got a call from John down at the garage. They replaced the Master and slave both. While bleeding the system with new fluid ten pumps and the fluid turned dark black. If this is true, this is an indication that something is going wrong before the car is ever driven, and thus can be pinpointed before the car is ever driven. This would eliminate heat as a suspect as well. I guess it's possible the leftover fluid was just leftover crap in the line but it in my mind it sounds like your seals were getting damaged right then and there. Sure it'll work for a little while but not long. I was thinking about it more this morning, here is how you could figure out where your problem is. Remove the slave, master, reservoir, and hose. Flush the hose, blow it out with an airline, whatever, make sure it is CLEAN. Then attach the hose to a new master cylinder and install it. Fill the master cylinder reservoir with clean fluid and then take a glass or clear plastic jar and fill it half full with clear fluid and put the free end of the hose down in it just like you would with brake fluid. Get in the car and pump it 10-20, maybe even as much as 100 times. You'll have to have somebody keep the master cylinder reservoir full and you may have to empty out the jar a few times but when it's all said and done you should be able to sit there and cycle the master cylinder like this all day long and you should only ever get clean clear fluid out of it. If you start getting black and / or chunky fluid then you know that either your hose is deteriorating and parts of it are coming out or it is the seal inside the master cylinder itself. If you determine that it is the master cylinder itself then you need to re-visit the pedal alignment or travel issue. If the hose, then replace the hose and make sure you get something rated for the type of fluid you are using. If all you ever get is clean clear fluid then you can probably say fairly safely that the problem is either with the slave cylinder or it's travel / alignment. If you can hook up the entire system and you can actuate it / bleed it all day long without getting black and / or chunky fluid then you might start to consider heat being a problem. While typing this I can't go back and read the thread but I'm thinking you said that everybody has had trouble with the clutch in the car and I'm thinking you said it's a different transmission? If so then ask a few questions, such as when did the problems actually start? I would think like this. 1. Was it having problems with the factory transmission? If YES - how many miles were on the car before this started happening? Did it happen right off the showroom floor indicating a factory flaw or did it only happen after it had some miles on it, possibly indicating a failing pre-cat or after some other maintenance was performed? If NO - what other than the transmission changed when the transmission was changed (things like fork, slave cylinder alignment, bellhousing, etc.) Something that seems extremely trivial may end up being the problem. You really need to know exactly when this problem started occurring, all OTHER things that were done to the car, as well as what may have been done in an attempt to correct the problem before you got it.
	Posted on: 2012/4/22 22:10

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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#85
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	It was occuring way before I owned it. Replaced transmission because overdrive went out. Common problem with 3+4. Parts hard to get. Went with the Keisler great transmission. Before I owned this car (Previous owner had everything that was serviced in a file he gave me) several different transmission shops have been trying to find out the problem for over 15 years. When we replace parts the entire system is replaced and a new line is used (made up at local shop) The guys that I am working with are topnotch mechanics in busness for over 30 years. John dirt track race and build from scratch top notch cars. Quote: Just got a call from John down at the garage. They replaced the Master and slave both. While bleeding the system with new fluid ten pumps and the fluid turned dark black. Quote: Thei was when we suspected the push rod. ordered an origional rod from NY it was a half 1/2" shorter and a smaller diamenter then what comes standard replacement slave. It was too short so we built it up in legnth so we could get the pedal off the floor. So since the first slaves were built for 87s something or unlisted problem hase come up to warrent this change in rod legnth and diamenter? We did find out that the later bores were chromed on the interior because of some type of interior condition. This is during the period when GM was putting the rubber in backward and they (slaves were breaking down). We have been given a lot of help from this site and used advice like you are giving now. Thats is where we went into checking the heat issue. The lines and slave are exposed to a lot of heat as in racing. Just covring our butt. The full thread that was on here for about a year we took off after Andy reminded me about some information about Craigs List and EBAY theavies that I put on here that were arrested with help and advice given to me here. (Andy over 30 people were arrested or deported. I forgot to mention that) On that note I say again Andy thanks for the help on the last few fixes and the major ones that occur with C4. Love all the knowledge I get here. I want to also thank you for your advice 92Polo. That is what is cool about this site.
	Posted on: 2012/4/22 22:45
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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bogus	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#86
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	The backward seal problem, to the best of my knowledge, only effected ZF6 slaves, and only replacement units. I have had great success with the cast replacement from NAPA. Two years and no loss of clutch fluid! I do need to refresh it tho... I can't explain the difference in the push rod, unless someone sent you the wrong one. I will check the parts fiche and confirm. 30 people arrested/deported? That's HUGE. That must have been a significant team of scammers. I wonder how many others they screwed over before running into you? Also, is the case closed? If so, I can bring the other thread back to life. As Steve stated, his other thread got contaminated with too much stuff about the scam, so I hid it away. Just in case the scammers learned about the sting. If nothing else, I will redact all the scam related content and save only the trans related, but I think the scam related is very important, too. But only if the case has been deemed closed.
	Posted on: 2012/4/23 2:57
	_________________ The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me
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istter1	Re: 87 vett destroying clutch master cylinders	#87
Elite Guru Bakersfield Ca 2336 Posts Member since: 2011/7/4 21:23	"I can't explain the difference in the push rod, unless someone sent you the wrong one. I will check the parts fiche and confirm." Our local gm dealer found an origional in NY city who bought out a gm warehouse full of origonal parts. Would like to have his number. Not personally having an origional Rod with the slave we bought both. That is how we found out about the crome lineing on some. The claim was that they would last longer. I have been using the NAPA, Cardon and Dorman. They all come with a new push rod. 1/2" longer and bigger around. As far as I can't verify this some one like Andy knows the people to talk to. Like the filter on the return fuel line. Thanks
	Posted on: 2012/4/23 4:41
	_________________ Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me. Carol Burnett
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