Vibration.... IS GONE!!!! [Forums - C4 Technical]

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EngineDoctor	Re: Vibration....	#51
Master Guru La Habra Ca. 791 Posts Member since: 2012/1/6 1:28	Quote: bogus wrote: I already tried that... I went back to my original. Point of reference: NO VIBRATION EXISTED BEFORE I DID THIS PROJECT. Which means: 1. The replacement front ujoint reintroduced a vibration. 2. The halfshaft ujoints are bound up and need to be reinstalled. 3. The new bearings, the ones I bought from the racer guy (Tommy Morrison, IIRC), could be faulty. 4. cbeam alignment has bit me in the ass. 5. God hates me. Why don't u just take it to Mcjacks ??
	Posted on: 2012/7/19 19:52

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bogus	Re: Vibration....	#52
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	Cause I don't like to surrender. That's why. I did this project and I hate to pay someone to fix what I broke. I did it myself in the first place to save this $$. and yes, I will fix this. It may just take time... and I don't feel like paying $40 an hour for them to guess, too.
	Posted on: 2012/7/19 21:17
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EngineDoctor	Re: Vibration....	#53
Master Guru La Habra Ca. 791 Posts Member since: 2012/1/6 1:28	Quote: bogus wrote: Cause I don't like to surrender. That's why. I did this project and I hate to pay someone to fix what I broke. I did it myself in the first place to save this $$. and yes, I will fix this. It may just take time... and I don't feel like paying $40 an hour for them to guess, too. I just ment that since you are friends, he might jus help you identify whats going on as a favor, idk?
	Posted on: 2012/7/19 21:46

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joeld	Re: Vibration....	#54
Guru Lawrenceville Ga 718 Posts Member since: 2007/12/30 0:00	I'm coming into this late, but there is one suggestion I would to make. Have you very closely examined the "ears" of the driveshaft where the U-joint caps ride? Reason I ask is many years back I had a joint fail like this,twice, before I finally found a hair line crack allowing the U-joint cap to move around under stress. Joel
	Posted on: 2012/7/19 21:48
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bogus	Re: Vibration....	#55
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	I will check, but that will mean the crack formed as a result of this project. I call that pretty odd.
	Posted on: 2012/7/19 22:36
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EngineDoctor	Re: Vibration....	#56
Master Guru La Habra Ca. 791 Posts Member since: 2012/1/6 1:28	Quote: joeld wrote: I'm coming into this late, but there is one suggestion I would to make. Have you very closely examined the "ears" of the driveshaft where the U-joint caps ride? Reason I ask is many years back I had a joint fail like this,twice, before I finally found a hair line crack allowing the U-joint cap to move around under stress. Joel good call ! Bogus, this time around I'd suggest u have ur drive shaft and half shafts cleaned and check them with dye penetrants, or magnafluxed to check for cracks.
	Posted on: 2012/7/20 1:18

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bogus	Re: Vibration....	#57
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	If there is a crack, it's in the trans yoke then. I will know for sure soon enough!
	Posted on: 2012/7/20 1:56
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bogus	Re: Vibration....	#58
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	question... where are MOOG parts made? Ok... found the answer. As a backup plan, I found MOOG rear wheel bearings, on close out, from Rock Auto for - get this - $29 EACH!!! I was gonna buy them and then found out that they are Chinese made. National brand is the name, China is the game. Don't get these...
	Posted on: 2012/7/20 2:02
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bogus	Re: Vibration....	#59
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	oh, Timkin rear's are $107 from RA.
	Posted on: 2012/7/20 2:16
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bogus	Re: Vibration....	#60
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	The ujoint was NOT sheared off. Simply lost a cup... and I think I know why. One of the spring clips channels had been smooshed a little, potentially lifting a d. I will make sure the open side of clip is on that area of the yoke. I am also going to measure the trans relationship to the car body. It's dark as dark, so I am going to go out, measure and finish later.
	Posted on: 2012/7/20 4:18
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BillH	Re: Vibration....	#61
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: bogus wrote: oh, Timkin rear's are $107 from RA. http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/det ... QQ19531999QQL1323014.html Lakewood's been around for a long time. http://performanceparts.com/brand/Lakewood http://www.lakewoodindustries.com/ Just sayin'
	Posted on: 2012/7/20 13:58
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bogus	Re: Vibration....	#62
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	your comparing wheel bearings to u-joints...
	Posted on: 2012/7/20 19:44
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BillH	Re: Vibration....	#63
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: bogus wrote: your comparing wheel bearings to u-joints... This is a U-joint. http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/det ... QQ19531999QQL1323014.html
	Posted on: 2012/7/20 20:50
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bogus	Re: Vibration....	#64
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	yes it is a ujoint... and a rather expensive one at that! Until I know what is what, I am going to keep with the cheaper Precision ujoints... Tonight? I am going to remove the half shafts and test run the car. If the vibration is gone, I am finding things. then reinstalled one half shaft at a time, and retest. I am also going to align the c-beam.
	Posted on: 2012/7/20 21:27
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tjpreul	Re: Vibration....	#65
Elite Guru Columbia, MO 1103 Posts Member since: 2008/9/16 18:12	What condition are the rear tie rod ends for the toe? The reason I am putting this out there, is I get a vibration at a low load cruise. Today when looking over the car it was realized the left one is bad allowing the wheel to wobble.
	Posted on: 2012/7/21 3:15
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bogus	Re: Vibration....	#66
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	Banski kit, 2 years old. Snug as a bug in a rug.
	Posted on: 2012/7/21 4:01
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bogus	Re: Vibration....	#67
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	I think I found it... both problems.... 1. UJoint failure at trans yoke: It looks like, over time, the yoke has closed in on itself a touch - .5mm? - just enough to not allow both e-clips to fit snugly into the channel. I took my dremel and relieved both sides a bit and now they fit. The joint is still a little tight, but it is smooth. 2. Vibration: I think part of it might be attributed to #1, but not much... I found the inside left ujoint was so tight and so notchy... within BOTH channels were hairs of aluminum! I was shocked considering how much cleaning I did. However, deburred, cleaned grooves. I am going for lunch. Will update in a couple of hours.
	Posted on: 2012/7/22 21:56
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pianoguy	Re: Vibration....	#68
Guru Emeritus Apple Valley, MN 14762 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 0:00	Hope that does the trick!
	Posted on: 2012/7/22 23:33
	_________________ 1996 LT4 �Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.�- Jack Handey
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bogus	Re: Vibration....	#69
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	another discovery... with the Banski kit, there is more room to get the halfshaft out. You only need to release tension on the spring and the halfshaft will wiggle out. Off to start reassembly and testing.
	Posted on: 2012/7/22 23:48
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Matatk	Re: Vibration....	#70
Webmaster SW Chicago Burbs 22803 Posts Member since: 2008/1/7 0:00	Hope that does it!
	Posted on: 2012/7/23 0:32
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bogus	Re: Vibration....	#71
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	I think I found it... I just did the first op test... with both wheels off, and the left halfshaft out, I ran it up to 76mph (the manual does not recommend doing this for long) and there was ZERO vibration. NOTHING. Oh, I did bolt the brake rotor in place, having it flop about was a bad idea. So that explains that... A few lessons learned: 1. dimensional tolerances are seriously important. 2. See #1. If the ujoints are too tight and are not able to move under their own weight, they will fail to move properly and set up vibrations as they resist said movement. The main drive shaft is seriously prone to this, because the offset is only a nominal 1*, just enough to keep it from being straight, setting up a different vibration!!! I suspect that the reason why most people are unaware of these problems/issues that that a) there are not a lot of C4's with 180k+ miles and b) most folks still take their cars in for service, vs DIY - especially for something like ujoints. My guess? The garage gets them and then finds the yokes marginally compressed, calls the owner and sells them a new set of shafts. Problem solved. I also suspect that over time, and ujoint changes, that the yokes get marginally compressed due to mistakes made with the press or vice. The other problem is debris inside the slots where the e-rings go. If they are packed, or worse yet, filled with aluminum shards, they will effect fitment, won't allow the ujoint to center properly or over tighten the fitment so it won't rotate properly. In short, there is a lot going on down there! I will not be 100% sure this is fixed until I get it out on the freeway... I guess that will be tomorrow morning at this rate. Off to finish assembly.
	Posted on: 2012/7/23 2:04
	_________________ The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me
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bogus	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#72
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	When it comes right down to it, overly tight Ujoints wil really screw up the ride quality. After spending serious hours in the garage yesterday, I have a vibration free car! I ran it up to over 80 and NOTHING. What I have I have learned is that my comments above about dimensions SO very important. Make sure the yoke hasn't been compressed.
	Posted on: 2012/7/23 15:17
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captmike13	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#73
Elite Guru Hillsboro Mo 2165 Posts Member since: 2008/1/15 0:00	Way to go Andy. There are some lessons in ther for all of us.
	Posted on: 2012/7/23 15:53
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joeld	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#74
Guru Lawrenceville Ga 718 Posts Member since: 2007/12/30 0:00	Good job. And you are 100% correct on the E-clips. Just a small amount of foreign material will screw up the seating groove. Joel
	Posted on: 2012/7/23 16:29
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pianoguy	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#75
Guru Emeritus Apple Valley, MN 14762 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 0:00	Great to hear, Andy!
	Posted on: 2012/7/23 18:17
	_________________ 1996 LT4 �Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.�- Jack Handey
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EngineDoctor	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#76
Master Guru La Habra Ca. 791 Posts Member since: 2012/1/6 1:28	Well done Andy !
	Posted on: 2012/7/23 18:53

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bogus	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#77
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	thanks gang! It was a learning experience... I will say that!
	Posted on: 2012/7/24 15:00
	_________________ The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me
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Matatk	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#78
Webmaster SW Chicago Burbs 22803 Posts Member since: 2008/1/7 0:00	This is good advice to anyone doing u-joints - clean the surfaces / grooves well! And buy new straps/hardware, it makes the job so much easier.
	Posted on: 2012/7/24 17:47
	_________________ 2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP
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bogus	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#79
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	yes on all counts!!! Clean clean clean! Clean the grooves, clean the threads out, new bolts, new straps... You name, get it new and keep it clean!
	Posted on: 2012/7/24 17:56
	_________________ The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me
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BrianCunningham	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#80
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 7763 Posts Member since: 2007/12/30 0:00	That's a cool find something to keep in mind, especially for those of us in the rust belt.
	Posted on: 2012/7/24 19:45
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bogus	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#81
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	aluminum does not rust, but it will corrode... that goo can really mess up a precision cut. Good point.
	Posted on: 2012/7/24 20:01
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LD85	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#82
Master Guru Indianapolis, Indiana 784 Posts Member since: 2005/9/16 0:00	Great info, I'll try to rotate my half shafts 180 degrees, one at a time to see if it takes care of my vibe, I have exactly the same vibration that you have.
	Posted on: 2012/7/27 23:40
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bogus	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#83
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	I do not think that is the problem. The halfshafts are NOT indexed. What I would do is make damned sure that the pressed in ujoints move freely. The bolted in ones seem to be ok, but it is possible that the tangs got a little bent over time? Donno about that one. The driveshaft IS indexed, but if it was out, the driveline would vibrate all the time. Do this: Remove both rear wheels. Bolt down the rotors with a couple of lug nuts. Remove both half shafts. Start car, put in 4th, run up to 70+ MPH. Vibration = yes, something is amiss in the primary driveline. Vibration = no, then put in one half shaft at a time until it comes back. You will need to load the suspension, either with a pair of tall jack stands or a couple of floor jacks.
	Posted on: 2012/7/27 23:57
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LD85	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#84
Master Guru Indianapolis, Indiana 784 Posts Member since: 2005/9/16 0:00	I had my drive shaft zero balanced, is that different than indexed?
	Posted on: 2012/7/28 1:05
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BillH	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#85
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: LD85 wrote: I had my drive shaft zero balanced, is that different than indexed? Not really. And Andy's points about u-joints are pretty good. There are ways to remove the u-jounts that won't compress the yoke, a lot of guys and machanics don't understand this. Using a press incorrectly is the easiest way to F this up.
	Posted on: 2012/7/28 1:17
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bogus	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#86
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	exactly. Put load on the yoke, and all bets are off. It requires a small enough press anvil to poke it out without loading the yoke, and then using a large enough socket at the bottom to allow it to clear. Do this hamfisted and you have messed up hardware. Indexed means aligned, for the lack of a better term. It means that the widget in question must be oriented in a specific direction or location, or else it won't work right. This can be applied to engines with real small quench areas, and the plugs have to be installed with the ground strap up, this means indexing the plug. Same with the drive shaft. If it isn't lined up to what it should be, where it was balanced with the rest of the drive line, then it would vibrate. Which makes me wonder... how were these balanced? Were they balanced with the diff? Did this take out imbalance with the trans yoke? I guess the question is: How much of an assembly was balanced? The driveshaft had to be indexed to the input shaft of the differential - this means if you didn't mark it, you had a 50/50 shot of getting it right! So I wonder... was the driveshaft originally match balanced with the diff, and then act of balancing the one fixed imbalance within the diffs rotating mass. If that is the case, any bets you need to get this rebalanced? I would actually reach out to Bill Bidreau at www.ZFDoc.com, he may just have the answer to this question...
	Posted on: 2012/7/28 1:29
	_________________ The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me
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BillH	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#87
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: bogus wrote: This can be applied to engines with real small quench areas, and the plugs have to be installed with the ground strap up, this means indexing the plug. Same with the drive shaft. If it isn't lined up to what it should be, where it was balanced with the rest of the drive line, then it would vibrate. Which makes me wonder... how were these balanced? Were they balanced with the diff? Indexing is a matter of how the threads were cut abd the depth of the plug seat. To do it properly, you need indexing washers, mark the plug strap location, torque them in and take note of the strap location. Driveshaft - at least on C2's, they were balanced at the mfg. location off the car.
	Posted on: 2012/7/28 1:37
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bogus	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#88
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	I am just no so sure about the balance of these things. If it was done off the car, why does position on the diff matter?
	Posted on: 2012/7/28 4:22
	_________________ The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me
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jonszr1	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#89
Senior Guru Lone Pine, CA 453 Posts Member since: 2010/10/25 22:42	Quote: bogus wrote: I am just no so sure about the balance of these things. If it was done off the car, why does position on the diff matter? i wonder the same thing . i can honestly say i have never marked for position any driveshaft on any car i have had and never had a problem ever . i know thats what it says in the fsm, just dont understand the logic behind it . jmho
	Posted on: 2012/7/30 10:23

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bogus	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#90
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	unless they are balanced together.
	Posted on: 2012/7/30 14:29
	_________________ The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me
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LD85	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#91
Master Guru Indianapolis, Indiana 784 Posts Member since: 2005/9/16 0:00	I will try to work on the car this weekeend, thanks Bogus for the debug help, I will try it as you described it. I took my drive shaft to Patterson's here in Indianapolis and they pressed in the forged U-joints and balanced teh drive shaft, they told me it was out a few grams when I bought it in ( I don't recall the exact grams) they charged my $40 to balance the drive shaft. I think I will take the half shafts down and have them balanced and looked at too.
	Posted on: 2012/7/31 11:17
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bogus	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#92
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	I don't think it's a balance issue... When you drop the half shafts, check the play in the ujoints. If they are tight, there is your problem!!!
	Posted on: 2012/7/31 15:20
	_________________ The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me
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LD85	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#93
Master Guru Indianapolis, Indiana 784 Posts Member since: 2005/9/16 0:00	Quote: bogus wrote: I don't think it's a balance issue... When you drop the half shafts, check the play in the ujoints. If they are tight, there is your problem!!! I'll check that first! Thanks B!
	Posted on: 2012/8/1 11:36
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bogus	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#94
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	This is exactly what I did: removed both rear wheels, removed left half shaft. On jack stands, and supporting the right upright, ran it up to 75+ MPH to feel for vibration - NONE. Now, if you do feel vibration, remove the right halfshaft and see that it does to the equation. The goal is to remove driveline vibration, through a process of elimination. Don't forget to put a lut nut or 2 on the brake rotors!!!
	Posted on: 2012/8/1 17:13
	_________________ The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me
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jonszr1	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#95
Senior Guru Lone Pine, CA 453 Posts Member since: 2010/10/25 22:42	Quote: bogus wrote: unless they are balanced together. i agree but i dont think they balanced them on the assembly line.on other thing on the 1/2 shafts. some of them have sketchy welds on the ends. i know of 2 people who have had them separate that way.i have ordered the nitro ready 1/2 shafts from dennys for that reason.but i drag race alot too.
	Posted on: 2012/8/2 5:45

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bogus	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#96
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	More than likely, Brad, they came from Dana as a preassembled and balanced component. As for the half shafts, they are a known week point when racing. Specifically drag racing. I have seen pictures of these things literally twisting themselves in half. And yes, the welds are a bit sketch from time to time, but for the most part, they are not the failure point. I have seen many more examples of the shafts themselves twisting apart than the welds failing. Realize one thing, with an IRS setup, you still need a weak spot. The stronger the rear end, the more chances things like the main prop shaft or even the trans/clutch will break first.
	Posted on: 2012/8/2 14:19
	_________________ The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me
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LD85	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#97
Master Guru Indianapolis, Indiana 784 Posts Member since: 2005/9/16 0:00	I finally got around to pulling the half shafts tonight One of the u-joints had a chatter/flat spot on the pinion end, so I am assuming that this was the culprit. Probably in a bind as Bogus described,,,, and,,It was on the passenger side which I was suspicious of all along, so I'm feeling very confident that the problem will be resolved. I will install all new forged U-joints and clean everything as Bogus suggests and put it all back together. Last weekend I installed the FAST 2.0 Crank Trigger so once its back together next weekend, (going to the NHRA Nationals and shooting range this weekend) it will be ready for a tune, less the cats, A Special, Big Thanks to Bogus for figuring this out for me :-)
	Posted on: 2012/8/30 23:32
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bogus	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#98
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	Sure sounds like you found it! Can't wait for the final thumbs up!!!
	Posted on: 2012/8/31 1:32
	_________________ The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me
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LD85	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#99
Master Guru Indianapolis, Indiana 784 Posts Member since: 2005/9/16 0:00	Did you install your U-joints and did you use Spicers? I used my bench vise and a large ID socket and they went together pretty well, but I might still let my drive shaft guys check the balance since they are out. When they tested my drive shaft they said it was out a couple of grams, so they zeroed it. I used Spicers last time, so I will have to order them unless Patterson Driveshaft has them locally.
	Posted on: 2012/8/31 11:34
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bogus	Re: Vibration.... IS GONE!!!!	#100
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	I used Precision from NAPA. And a 12 ton press to install. The key are the grooves. Make sure there is no debris in there. I am not sure about "zeroing out" the driveshaft. I don't know enough about balancing that crap to know if its right or not.
	Posted on: 2012/8/31 14:17
	_________________ The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me
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