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Danspeed1 How NOT to flush engine oil!
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My father picked up a new project. I stopped by yesterday to help him pull the engine out so we could take a closer look. Car is real nice; or should I say "was" real nice. 1990 with 35K original miles, a ZF6 and the owner really took good care of it. Interior looks like the day it rolled off the show room floor. The owner didn't have time for the car and put it away for a couple of years. As I am told, this past year she removed the car from storage and brought it to a Chevy Dealership where she was handed an astronomical bill for maintenance work to get the car back on the road. From what I can tell, all the car would have needed was an oil change and battery to run, but I don't have to imagine too hard the service adviser trying to make a whole months shop time on it. She didn't want to pay and took the car home. Apparently she was contacted by one of the technicians who told her in his free time he could get the car back on the road for her as long as she paid cash on the side. So she had the car towed to his house. Hours later she received a voice mail on her phone from the technician stating there had been an "accident" while changing the oil and the car went up in flames. The fire department had to respond to put it out (with dry chemicals thankfully). Upon our inspection we found the engine crank case was filled with gasoline. Apparently this guy decided rather than doing an engine flush with the proper additives he would just use gas. Engines run on gas, but not as a substitute for oil! You would think a GM tech would know this. So from what I was told she came to pickup the car, the technician wasn't even around, she had it towed away and hasn't been in contact since. She couldn't be bothered with the hassles of court so she put the car up for sale as parts... My father purchased it for parts but has since decided its too nice to part out and would like to restore it.

Yesterday we pulled the motor out, which was a heck of a job! Motor was unbolted in less than 2 hours, and took 5 hours to separate from the ZF6 WTF? But we got it out. The engine compartment isn't horrible, the firewall worked! However, the wiring harness for both the engine and heater controls are gone! Not really sure what to do about this one. Looking for advice on how to tackle this project. Thoughts?

DG

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Posted on: 2013/9/15 17:34
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bogus Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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wow... I would first hunt down that useless GM tech and beat the living shit out of him.

If nothing else, report this incident to the dealership, I would not want that asswipe in my service department. I cannot find words to describe his incompetence. And cowardice in handling his screw up.

Here is what you will need to do... buy lots of wire...

Seriously, though, it isn't impossible, but it won't be fun.

Get the 1990 FSM. Learn the harness, circuit by circuit. Find a salvage yard who will cut an engine harness at the firewall. Inside the car would be best. The harness connector at the firewall isn't... it's a hard point, nothing unplugs there.

1. Remove the dash board.

2. Clean up the wiring on the inside of the dash. The wiring on the outside is junk.

3. Clean up the firewall on the outside... airbox, surge tank... anything out there, get rid of it.

4. repair and paint the engine compartment.

5. Get a couple of multipin connectors... there are about 40 or 50 wires that need to be dealt with. These wires go all over the place... the ECM, the dash board, the CCM... you name it...

Just take your time, clean and prep the area where you must work... any left over junk will make this project that much harder.

You will also need a good soldering iron, strippers, crimpers and a DVM.
Posted on: 2013/9/15 18:40
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TommyT-Bone Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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That reminds me of a pic I saw a few years back of Bastet's car with Central Coaster (Kevin) holding a bundle of wires in his hand. All I can say about the above pics is "Wow!"
Posted on: 2013/9/15 20:14
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istter1 Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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I am still dealing with toasted wires. They seem to haunt you for the rest of your life
Posted on: 2013/9/15 20:27
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bogus Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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if done methodically, carefully and thoroughly, the fixed harness should not be any different than the original one.

Just make damned sure it's from the same year.
Posted on: 2013/9/15 20:39
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pianoguy Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Wow, what a shame
Posted on: 2013/9/15 21:37
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Ultraman Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Geez....what Andy said....She got worked over real bad by the dealership and the idiot who was moonlighting....I would call the dealership and let him know what he was up to and I would track his ass down and make him pay for something...jerkwad...

Good luck on your project the rest of the car looks to be in good shape...
Posted on: 2013/9/15 21:50
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Danspeed1 Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Well, unfortunately although I feel the same way, and my father felt the same way as he actually told her when he picked up the car she should have went after him, but apparently she is too busy and just wanted to be rid of the car. Now that it is in our possession the only thing to do is look forward. It is my opinion that he scored a really nice project car with a decent story. The car still has her plates on it and they are being returned this week. Even though it has nothing to do with us my father feels she should know that this guy filled her engine with gas so he is going to tell her as well as provide her with pictures. But at the end of the day its not going to change anything.


As for the car: today he was able to score what appears to be a complete harness from inside the car all the way though the engine compartment out of a 91... hopefully its the same as a 90?

Now we just need to figure out what to do with the engine. As always we work on a budget. Although I would love to do an LSx swap, I have a feeling mating a LSx to a ZF6 is going to create another hair pulling situation, and we already have enough of that going on. So maybe a heads/cam TPI is the best direction to go in.

DG
Posted on: 2013/9/15 23:45
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bogus Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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The 90/91 should be similar... I would get both manuals, just to be on the safe side.

ZF6/LSx conversion is doable... ZF Doc has a kit to do the conversion.
Posted on: 2013/9/15 23:52
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Matatk Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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I would try to get a harness, not piece it together. No such thing as a budget ls swap imho. Rebuild the L98 and get used parts for what was burned up.

You will have to get the heater box from a salvage/wreck.
Posted on: 2013/9/17 1:34
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bogus Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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the harness is not an "assembly". it's a rats nest.

The wires come through the firewall and get distributed to every point they need to go - IP, CCM, ABS... it's a mess. I wish the firewall had a connector, but it does not.

The 1990/91 harness should be very similar, with the added benefit of the 1991 being made of better materials.

As for aftermarket, it doesn't exist.
Posted on: 2013/9/17 2:07
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Danspeed1 Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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I stopped by yesterday for something unrelated and was surprised to find the car out in the driveway all cleaned up. Its amazing, the engine compartment doesn't actually look all that bad. The wiring on the other hand is a little overwhelming. I was questioning the promises I made to help wire it up.

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Honestly this seems to be the worst of it. He is going to have to fiberglass the firewall in this area.

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DG
Posted on: 2013/9/17 13:50
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bogus Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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in the last pic, there is a bolt... there is one opposite it...

Remove those bolts and then cut the wires on the inside of the firewall and then mate the new up to the old!!

Posted on: 2013/9/17 15:25
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Matatk Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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As far as the gas in the crankcase, could have been a faulty injector leaking down over a period of time and non-intentional.
Posted on: 2013/9/17 22:35
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bogus Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Or a bad FPR... I had that happen once, dumped a gallon fuel into the engine... filled #6 and 8 cylinders. Lucky I didn't hydro-lock it.
Posted on: 2013/9/18 0:38
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Danspeed1 Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Quote:

Matatk wrote:
As far as the gas in the crankcase, could have been a faulty injector leaking down over a period of time and non-intentional.


Judging by the fact the technician wasn't able to face the owner, i am willing to bet it was something he did. Not to mention the fact that he was supposed to be changing the oil... would leave me to believe it was intentional.

I am going to be doing the wiring and helping with the engine reinstall. I spoke with my dad yesterday, and I still don't have clear picture of what is going to fill the engine compartment. Since this was a surprise purchase I know its going to be on a budget, and although I heard talk of an LSx while we were ripping out the TPI, I don't honestly foresee that happening.

Personally, if it was mine I would do a 383 with a machined LT1 intake.

In any event, later this week we are going to tear down the TPI motor and check out the internals. There is a slight possibility that maybe this thing only ran for a couple of seconds before catching fire and the bearings aren't going to be wiped out. If so maybe a low budget refresh and a small cam... In any event Ill be sure to post more pics!

DG
Posted on: 2013/9/18 4:23
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bogus Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Really curious what you find internally.

Cleaning the inside of an engine with gas is stupid beyond stupid. At least mixing diesel in, you are adding a thin oil... gas isn't a lube, it's a solvent... and that won't lube anything at all.

Adding diesel or ATF and running for, oh, 2-3 minutes would be a fair estimate. But gas? 2-3 minutes might just eat all the bearings alive.

again... can't wait to see what you learn.
Posted on: 2013/9/18 15:54
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bogus Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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oh, as an aside, the crap you drained from the crank case? either add more gas to it and use it in a lawn mower, or, add it to a big tank and mix it in with 20 gallons of fresh and run it in a car or something.

either way, it will be so thin that it will burn off safely.
Posted on: 2013/9/18 15:56
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Danspeed1 Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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I'd say we hit the nail on the head with this one. Today I stopped by to break down the engine and take a closer look at what we've got. It appears this idiot filled the engine to the top with gasoline and then turned the key. What you have below, is not oil, but gasoline. I removed nearly 10 quarts from the oil pan. I am keeping my fingers crossed that no rods were bent in the process of running the vehicle. Take a look

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Both those oil containers are filled with gas that I removed from the oil pan. Filter was never changed and neither was the oil so I am hoping the motor was only run for a couple of seconds before it burst into flames
Posted on: 2013/9/20 0:40
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Matatk Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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I honestly find it hard to believe that a technician would intentionally fill that engine with gasoline. I am leaning towards the fuel injector/fpr theory.
Posted on: 2013/9/20 0:53
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Danspeed1 Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Below is what I did as far as the breakdown process. Not surprisingly the engine was clean inside, very clean, and everything looked surprisingly intact. The bottoms of the cylinders still had the original cross hatching; the car only has 35K miles. I am not sure how to tell if any rods were bent during the process of running it with 10qts of gasoline in the crank case but everything seems to move freely. The other question I have is in regard to the bearings. They look good to me however I really don't have enough bottom end knowledge to tell if they are still good. I pulled one of the main caps as a quick way to check and took some pictures. There are some lines in the bearings, but they don't seem deep. Its kind of what I thought it would look like, if you guys could take a closer look and let me know what you think I would appreciate it.


We discussed our plans a little further tonight. We have come to the conclusion that if the bottom end can be saved we would like to purchase a set of performance heads, a mild cam, and probably go with a LT1 intake drilled for a distributor. Thoughts????

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This is all the parts going right into the garbage...
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And for some good news today,... the COMPLETE!!! wiring harness inside and out of the vehicle... labeled by the previous owner might I add... arrived today!!!

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Posted on: 2013/9/20 0:54
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Danspeed1 Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Quote:

Matatk wrote:
I honestly find it hard to believe that a technician would intentionally fill that engine with gasoline. I am leaning towards the fuel injector/fpr theory.


10 quarts??? really? Did I mention I live in "UPSTATE" NY. We are a special breed up here....

And if it was a leaking injector... where did all the oil go. This stuff was tinted on the way out, but pretty much clear.

DG

Posted on: 2013/9/20 0:56
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bogus Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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that's insane... absolutely insane.

I would do this... put the motor together... drop it in, sans transmission, and just hold the motor in with bolts.

Wire it up, test fire it.

If it runs ok, done. If not, pull out the motor and rebuild.

It looks fine from what I can see.
Posted on: 2013/9/20 3:08
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teebee Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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How much is a set of bearings? Seems to me that it would be cheap insurance to just go ahead and replace them, the engine is already torn down, just replace them.
Posted on: 2013/9/20 14:00
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KPotter Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Quote:

teebee wrote:
How much is a set of bearings? Seems to me that it would be cheap insurance to just go ahead and replace them, the engine is already torn down, just replace them.


I find myself agreeing with Tom here. You have the bottom open. "When in doubt, pull 'em out."

If you just put it back the way it is and it fails, you will wind up kicking yourself for the extra work.
Posted on: 2013/9/20 17:37
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bogus Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Personally, I think those bearings look fine. They are not scarred, there is no sign of copper showing... in short, they look like perfect 30k mile mains.

I would hit them with prelube and reassemble.

unless you desire to go faster, of course...
Posted on: 2013/9/20 19:40
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1Fast04Vert Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Not sure I would go with the LT1 intake. I have read problems where the distributor alignment was messed up by people getting their measurements just slightly off.
Posted on: 2013/9/20 19:43
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Danspeed1 Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Quote:

teebee wrote:
How much is a set of bearings? Seems to me that it would be cheap insurance to just go ahead and replace them, the engine is already torn down, just replace them.


Yea, I have to agree with Bogus. The engine is "within" spec, and cylinders visually look good. I just finished up a heads/cam install on my C6 and it went well, but my father isn't interested in doing bottom end work; if it were my car I would swap the bearings, plastigauge check them and run it, but in this case being as it is not my motor and I haven't done any bottom end work in almost 10 years I think the safer bet is if they look good, leave em alone.

They look good to Bogus and I, how do they look to you?

Just my $0.02

DG
Posted on: 2013/9/21 18:15
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Danspeed1 Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Quote:

1Fast04Vert wrote:
Not sure I would go with the LT1 intake. I have read problems where the distributor alignment was messed up by people getting their measurements just slightly off.


My thought was to try and find one that was already done by a company, but then again who really knows who performed the work on a part so old? I haven't worked on one of these GEN I's in a while and I am not sure what would be a fairly economical intake setup would be. I know mini rams are like $1K+ so those are off the table and there really is not point in heads/cam with a TPI unit.

DG
Posted on: 2013/9/21 18:18
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Matatk Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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I realize this is a budget build, but you are talking about performance heads and a cam, but are going to cheap out on $30 worth of bearings? Not a good idea IMHO.
Posted on: 2013/9/21 18:49
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Danspeed1 Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Anybody know of anyone who is machining the LT1 Intakes for a distributor anymore? I am skeptical about having my local machine shop do one and the miniram is very expensive.

He still hasn't decided what to do about the bottom end yet but we are in the process of accumulating parts and repairing the firewall.

DG
Posted on: 2013/10/8 15:50
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teebee Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Didn't CorvetteRon just take his off and went back to TPI to sell his 91?
Posted on: 2013/10/8 15:55
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Matatk Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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CorvetteRon sold/traded his for the stock setup.

The website that used to do the machining closed down. I know there are specs floating around out there for where/how to do it if you want to have it machined yourself.

What costs are you considering the for the LT1 intake? Don't forget fuel rails, remote t-stat housing, lines, etc, in addition to the cost of the manifold plus machining. You can find used setups complete in the $3-400 range last I looked. I have seen miniram setups used in the $800 range complete. Just a thought.
Posted on: 2013/10/8 17:07
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Danspeed1 Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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I can pull all that stuff from the junk yard for like $30. Having the manifold drilled is going to be the bulk of the cost. We rather purchase one from someone who is fluent in doing them and just slap it on instead of having to rely on my machine shop which is not used to doing it, to get it done right. If we can just get a hold of a drilled manifold, I will have no problem getting the rest of the parts.

DG
Posted on: 2013/10/8 21:14
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Danspeed1 Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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I was asked tonight what distributor to purchase to go with the LT1 intake. Supposedly the HEI big top will not fit in between the LT1 Intake and a normal firewall. With the firewall being reconstructed a smaller distributor is going to be the safest bet. Funny thing is, I haven't worked on a car with a distributor since my 89 which was probably like 6 years ago. I took a brief look online. We've got an old MSD 6AL, and a coil sitting on the shelf. I am thinking the MSD-8366 Distributor. Are their any better solutions? What is the benefit, if at all of using this over another more traditional distributor?

DG
Posted on: 2013/10/10 1:24
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Matatk Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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According to this article, you do need a small cap:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech ... pi_intake_conversion_ls1/

Do you want to spend the additional money on a pricey MSD distributor when you can buy a stock style for 1/3 of the price?

Some guys swear by ignition boxes, but on modified / drag cars as opposed to street cars. On a mostly stock street car there is probably very little benefit, plus if it goes bad (known to happen) you are stranded since it is tied in to the ignition.
Posted on: 2013/10/10 12:37
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Danspeed1 Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Quote:

Matatk wrote:
I realize this is a budget build, but you are talking about performance heads and a cam, but are going to cheap out on $30 worth of bearings? Not a good idea IMHO.


We took some pictures over to the engine builder today who agreed that they would definitely hold up, however the shininess you are seeing on the main caps signify wear. Chances are they will hold up long term, however we could experience low oil pressure issues. Its safe to say the life of the bearings is diminished. My father can't afford a Stroker rebuild at this time, but has opted to have the entire engine rebuilt with all new bearings. Everything else will get polished up and reinstalled. They are going to swap out the cam and port the stock heads as from what I am told they have worked with these particular heads before and have a formula to get them to make power. Install roller rockers, performance valve job... I told them the goal is 400hp and supposedly this shouldn't be a problem.

We are going to couple that to an LT1 intake manifold, a set of hooker headers and a 2.5in exhaust with magnaflow mufflers and cats. MDS 6AL w/6200 rev limit.

DG
Posted on: 2013/10/10 19:07
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Matatk Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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I think that's a wise choice. A hotcam, zz9, etc or something similar would really wake up that stock motor.
Posted on: 2013/10/10 20:46
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bogus Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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I have never heard that shiny bearings means wear...very odd to me.

I would have expected to see copper... not polished shine.
Posted on: 2013/10/16 18:34
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Danspeed1 Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Quote:

bogus wrote:
I have never heard that shiny bearings means wear...very odd to me.

I would have expected to see copper... not polished shine.


I agree honestly,

I was under the impression that shiny bearings were just used bearings. I haven't pulled out any in a while so I can't remember what the last set looked like, but according to my machine shop they aren't shot but it would be a good idea to replace them.

Just to give you all an update, engine project has gotten completely out of hand (which of course is what you were all secretly hoping for anyway). Engine is still at the engine shop, but nearing competition. All the bottom end internals are stock but have been cleaned up, all new bearings, new oil pump, new timing chain, heads were hand ported with a 3 angle performance valve job. The guys building this so called budget motor are the best in my area. I have personally done business with them many times before, there is some real magic in their port work. I am not sure what the flow numbers are but they said we are going to be very pleased with the end result. They spec'd out a custom cam to go along with the heads and then port matched everything to the LT1 intake we are also having them tap and drill the distributor hole for. Roller rockers, push rods, valve springs and all new hardware.

Hardly what you would call a bare bones rebuild. As usual well over done for the application. This should be some car when its done.

DG
Posted on: 2013/10/31 4:29
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Danspeed1 Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Oh I forgot to mention they are balancing everything as well.

DG
Posted on: 2013/10/31 4:31
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teebee Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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"Gee, while you are at it....." Seems like it goes that way every time. I doubt you'll be disappointed with the results.
Posted on: 2013/10/31 11:34
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bogus Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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thanks for the update! Can't wait to hear how it runs.

I hope you are doing headers and duels...
Posted on: 2013/10/31 18:29
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Matatk Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Ported 113s can still give impressive numbers. With a custom grind and lt1 intake it is easily over 300 HP.
Posted on: 2013/10/31 23:55
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bogus Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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add headers and cat back, it's 350, easy.

Posted on: 2013/11/1 2:03
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Matatk Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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I think so, too. A very healthy motor.
Posted on: 2013/11/1 2:46
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Schrade Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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When I did a cleanup on my LT1, I parked it with a full tank.

I noticed near the end of the job a dry area near #8 in the valley. Never remembered to check to see how much gas was in the tank when finished, but I DID change the oil before pulling the trigger......

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-te ... acement-a-few-pics-3.html

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jpg  00004.jpg (342.23 KB)
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Posted on: 2013/11/1 4:11
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Danspeed1 Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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Quote:

bogus wrote:
thanks for the update! Can't wait to hear how it runs.

I hope you are doing headers and duels...


Of course! I'm building him the same system i had on my 89. Long tubes into bullet cats, into an x-pipe and out a set of magnaflows. 2.5in

Should be done in a couple of weeks. waiting on a new oil pan and valve covers to come in and the machine shop will be finishing it up. I will post some pics when its back in our possession.


DG
Posted on: 2013/11/3 17:44
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bogus Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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that sucker will SING with this build up...
Posted on: 2013/11/3 20:02
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Danspeed1 Re: How NOT to flush engine oil!
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No work for weeks and then... all this at once.

Pulled apart the entire interior so I could access the wiring harness for the engine compartment. Turned out after all this work, the harness was right under the heater box and could have been easily installed without the removal of the dash.

I was pretty annoyed but the good news is that the heater box itself was damaged (and we didn't realize it), and we were able to find the damage, remove it, and just ordered another one to replace it with.

Big day today! The NEW 350 came back from the machine shop.

Our goal is to have this thing running by Christmas. As soon as the heater box comes in I plan on slamming this thing so stay tuned for more details and updates... they're comin

DG

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Posted on: 2013/12/1 4:28
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