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Danspeed1 Oil pump failure?
Elite Guru
Mooresville, North Carolina
1121 Posts
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Just got my 2005 Vette back together in august after a 1 year build that cost way too much blood sweat and overtime. I fear it may all have to come apart this winter. In short, I am running ported heads, cam, morel lifters, M112 supercharger, and Methanol Injection on a stock bottom LS2. For whatever reason at the time I rebuilt the engine I opted to stick with my stock 40K mile oil pump (big mistake). For the last 5K miles the car has run decent, with no major issues. I have electrical gremlins however my oil pressure has always been a consistent 45 psi cold, 32-34 psi hot and 50-60 psi at 2000+RPM. Since day 1 of rebuild I noticed that when the engine was cold it made a pretty loud ticking sound I was told it was the morel lifters. Last week I was driving the car when the low oil pressure light came on. I quickly shut the car. And then restarted it. Pressure was back to 40 psi. I figured it was an electrical problem. Today was last ride before I put it away for winter. 28*F outside; I went out and started her up. It was shuttering pretty hard but its really cold so I didn't think anything of it till I looked in my rear view mirror and noticed a huge black cloud coming out the rear of the car. Never seen that before! Just around that time I looked down at the oil pressure gauge and noticed 0 psi. Killed the car. Total elapsed time it ran was for about 12-15 seconds. I opened up the oil cap and with a flashlight looked in. It was pretty dry. I had my father restart the car once to see if oil was reaching the head. Ran it for about 5 seconds... nothing, however now we had oil pressure... 28 psi. Started the car a couple seconds later, car still dead cold 26 psi. Gave it a quick rev and got it up to 32 psi. Normally it would be in the 50's. What scares me a little bit is when I pulled the dipstick i noticed a milky substance on it (could be moisture) but I could swear I saw metal particles. Could be my imagination.

I have a couple of thoughts here. I am hoping the oil pump is not bad and this thing has to come apart again. I am really hoping the bearings are not F***ed! Car ran the day prior with consistently good oil pressure. I shut it down, started it today, and now this. I am 1/2 wondering if the oil pressure sensor went bad?? Or maybe the pressure relief on the pump is stuck open. Either way this is all so sudden I don't know where to begin.

Is there anyway I can test the oil pressure with a mechanical gauge. Also how long would the oil take to reach the top of the head?

Dan
Posted on: 2013/12/1 4:05
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rklessdriver Re: Oil pump failure?
Senior Guru
Woodbridge, VA
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Was the engine hurt before you changed the cam and lifters?

Does it still have non adjustable rocker arms?

Did you plot the rocker geometry?

Oil pump failure in an otherwise solid bottom end is unlikely.

I would check the stuff you changed. The oil band on the Morel lifters and make sure its lined proproperly with the oil galley in the lifter bore... some of those Morel lifters are .300 taller for use with small base circle cams and that will play hell with all kinds of stuff on a regular bs cam. Cam brgs getting chewed up during cam removal and installation is another big possible problem.

Will
Posted on: 2013/12/1 22:06
_________________
1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide.
Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials.

1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed.
Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station.
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Danspeed1 Re: Oil pump failure?
Elite Guru
Mooresville, North Carolina
1121 Posts
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Quote:

rklessdriver wrote:
Was the engine hurt before you changed the cam and lifters?

Does it still have non adjustable rocker arms?

Did you plot the rocker geometry?

Oil pump failure in an otherwise solid bottom end is unlikely.

I would check the stuff you changed. The oil band on the Morel lifters and make sure its lined proproperly with the oil galley in the lifter bore... some of those Morel lifters are .300 taller for use with small base circle cams and that will play hell with all kinds of stuff on a regular bs cam. Cam brgs getting chewed up during cam removal and installation is another big possible problem.

Will


Engine was fine before changing the cam and lifters

I still have the stock rocker arms with a trunion upgrade

Yes, the rocker geometry is good

Tell me more about the "oil band" on the morel lifters. This is a topic I am not familiar with. The lifters were ordered for the LS2 specifically and have been used by many other members of both the corvetteforum, ls1gto, and ls1tech with issue other than a little additional noise.

The engine has been running since August and we have put 5000+ miles on it with good consistent oil pressure. Then yesterday we had NONE.

DG
Posted on: 2013/12/2 0:44
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Danspeed1 Re: Oil pump failure?
Elite Guru
Mooresville, North Carolina
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Are there any additional ports I can use on an LS2 engine to test oil pressure with a mechanical gauge? Although the engine did sound like it may not have been pumping up the lifters I want to rule out a bad sensor.

DG
Posted on: 2013/12/2 0:48
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rklessdriver Re: Oil pump failure?
Senior Guru
Woodbridge, VA
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I would just remove the factory gauge sendor and put the mech gauge in that oil port... fire it up and check for pressure.

As far as the oil band. The oil band is the area of the lifter where it's turned down to smaller diamater to allow oil to pass by to the next lifter and get to the oil hole in the lifter... that area has to intersect the oil galley in lifter bore of the block. If the oil band on the lifter is too high (or too low) oil won't flow to tall the lifters and top end properly.

That is all a product of where the oil band is located on the lifter and the Base Circle on the camsahft - which determines how high or low the lifter rides in the lifter bore.

Are your lifters the riveted link bar or do they re-use the factory plastic locators?

Anything can happen... like I said it's unlikely that the oil pump just died but it could have.... the cam and head swap could have contributed as well.
Will

Posted on: 2013/12/2 17:43
_________________
1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide.
Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials.

1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed.
Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station.
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Matatk Re: Oil pump failure?
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SW Chicago Burbs
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Can't comment on much, but I read that it takes a lot of cranking on the ls to bring oil up to the heads and is not the preferred method at all. Recommended to use a priming tool. So I don't know if the observation of limited oil through the rockers is a good indication of pressure.
Posted on: 2013/12/2 19:32
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rklessdriver Re: Oil pump failure?
Senior Guru
Woodbridge, VA
1318 Posts
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Quote:

Matatk wrote:
Can't comment on much, but I read that it takes a lot of cranking on the ls to bring oil up to the heads and is not the preferred method at all. Recommended to use a priming tool. So I don't know if the observation of limited oil through the rockers is a good indication of pressure.


No other way to prime a wet sump LSX. Oil pump is driven off the nose/front of the crankshaft.
Will
Posted on: 2013/12/2 23:14
_________________
1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide.
Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials.

1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed.
Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station.
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BrianCunningham Re: Oil pump failure?
Senior Guru
Boston, MA for the most part :)
7763 Posts
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Boost and stock cast pistons don't mix well

How much boost were you running

I know someone with an early Maggi, said he was fighting some really bad PVC issues that was giving the oil system fits!
Posted on: 2013/12/2 23:22
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Matatk Re: Oil pump failure?
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Quote:

rklessdriver wrote:
Quote:

Matatk wrote:
Can't comment on much, but I read that it takes a lot of cranking on the ls to bring oil up to the heads and is not the preferred method at all. Recommended to use a priming tool. So I don't know if the observation of limited oil through the rockers is a good indication of pressure.


No other way to prime a wet sump LSX. Oil pump is driven off the nose/front of the crankshaft.
Will


I was referring to something like in this thread:

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185411
Posted on: 2013/12/3 3:09
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Danspeed1 Re: Oil pump failure?
Elite Guru
Mooresville, North Carolina
1121 Posts
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2008/1/2 0:00



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Quote:

rklessdriver wrote:
I would just remove the factory gauge sendor and put the mech gauge in that oil port... fire it up and check for pressure.

As far as the oil band. The oil band is the area of the lifter where it's turned down to smaller diamater to allow oil to pass by to the next lifter and get to the oil hole in the lifter... that area has to intersect the oil galley in lifter bore of the block. If the oil band on the lifter is too high (or too low) oil won't flow to tall the lifters and top end properly.

That is all a product of where the oil band is located on the lifter and the Base Circle on the camsahft - which determines how high or low the lifter rides in the lifter bore.

Are your lifters the riveted link bar or do they re-use the factory plastic locators?

Anything can happen... like I said it's unlikely that the oil pump just died but it could have.... the cam and head swap could have contributed as well.
Will



Here's the thing; Although I would love to diagnosis this problem and potentially save myself having to rip this monster apart AGAIN, I have two issues; I am extremely paranoid and I have very bad luck. That combination leads me to believe that the best thing for my bearings is not to start that car until this issue is resolved. I really don't have the extra tolerances for this engine to chew up, beings as though it runs on 9 psi of boost. I was thinking of pulling the cam when I do the pump and checking the cam bearings to see if any damage was done.

What are your thoughts on run time v.s. bearing wear. Also, someone made a statement at some point that even though I have been getting excellent oil pressure until yesterday, its possible a portion of this motor has been starving for oil since the rebuild. Is there any truth to that? (I sure hope not)

I have the linked bar morel lifers (5206). I need to locate my cam card asap!

DG

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Posted on: 2013/12/3 5:06
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Danspeed1 Re: Oil pump failure?
Elite Guru
Mooresville, North Carolina
1121 Posts
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Quote:

rklessdriver wrote:
Quote:

Matatk wrote:
Can't comment on much, but I read that it takes a lot of cranking on the ls to bring oil up to the heads and is not the preferred method at all. Recommended to use a priming tool. So I don't know if the observation of limited oil through the rockers is a good indication of pressure.


No other way to prime a wet sump LSX. Oil pump is driven off the nose/front of the crankshaft.
Will


Huh? They make a tool to prime it. I have seen it; unfortunately I do not own it. Although I will soon enough.

I really hate these priming conversations; 1000 threads on various forums online and they all contradict themselves.

I am so wondering how or if GM ever primed the engine when they built it.

DG
Posted on: 2013/12/3 5:09
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1972 Chevelle SS 454
1995 Corvette Convertible
1996 Ford Explorer
2009 Cadillac CTS-v
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Danspeed1 Re: Oil pump failure?
Elite Guru
Mooresville, North Carolina
1121 Posts
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Quote:

BrianCunningham wrote:
Boost and stock cast pistons don't mix well

How much boost were you running

I know someone with an early Maggi, said he was fighting some really bad PVC issues that was giving the oil system fits!


M112 at 9psi of boost. 562whp/583tq

I want to reiterate that this oiling issue is as recent as yesterday. For the last 5k miles my oil pressure has been on point.
Posted on: 2013/12/3 5:11
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1972 Chevelle SS 454
1995 Corvette Convertible
1996 Ford Explorer
2009 Cadillac CTS-v
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Danspeed1 Re: Oil pump failure?
Elite Guru
Mooresville, North Carolina
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My oil is going to blackstone the first opportunity i get
Posted on: 2013/12/3 5:12
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1972 Chevelle SS 454
1995 Corvette Convertible
1996 Ford Explorer
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rklessdriver Re: Oil pump failure?
Senior Guru
Woodbridge, VA
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My thoughts on runtime vs brg damage... if its hurt its hurt and any runtime is going to cause more damage, but you need to determine what the problem is and that entails runtime for troubleshooting.

You got to do what you got to do here. If the noise doesn't sound like a rod is going to fly out and the oil doesn't have metalflake in it, I personally would screw a mech gauge in it and drive it to see what the oil pressure does.

Guys pressurizing the oiling system via an upstream oil port are doing better than nothing for the topend but they are actually pushing oil out of the pump....
Will
Posted on: 2013/12/5 2:17
_________________
1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide.
Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials.

1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed.
Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station.
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LD85 Re: Oil pump failure?
Master Guru
Indianapolis, Indiana
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Any updates?
Posted on: 2014/2/27 22:35
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bogus Re: Oil pump failure?
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
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yea... kinda leaving us hanging here...
Posted on: 2014/4/17 15:42
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Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me

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Danspeed1 Re: Oil pump failure?
Elite Guru
Mooresville, North Carolina
1121 Posts
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Yea, Why not.

Still chasing this issue. I had all but given up and was convinced that the oil pump had gone bad. Car sat all winter until 2 days ago when i got the nerve to change the oil. I changed the oil, added a can of sea foam, pulled the fuel pump relay and cranked it over. As soon as I cranked it I got oil pressure. Put the relay back in and ran it. Ran it for almost 20 minutes, with steady oil pressure around 45psi cold and 33 psi hot. Changed the oil again, and took it out for a ride. 25 miles later, no issues. The next day (yesterday) I woke up and decided to take the car to work. I made it one block. Oil pressure was at 50 psi at about 2K rpms... then the car started to bong and the oil pressure gauge was at zero. Killed the car and coasted to a stop. Restarted the car and was back at 50psi. Made it another block same thing. Killed it and then quickly restarted it. Oil pressure again.

I don't have the balls to run it with the gauge reading zero, but that is the only way I am really going to know if its just the sending unit, or if its a bad pump. One thing I will say was after changing the oil yesterday I could swear the pan looked like it had sparkles in it. But I can't be sure it wasn't my imagination.

DG
Posted on: 2014/4/25 3:35
_________________
1971 Chevelle SS (The Original)
1972 Chevelle SS 454
1995 Corvette Convertible
1996 Ford Explorer
2009 Cadillac CTS-v
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Danspeed1 Re: Oil pump failure?
Elite Guru
Mooresville, North Carolina
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Here is a picture of a flashlight showing about an oz of accumulated oil at the bottom of my drain pan. I don't know what that crap is.

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Posted on: 2014/4/25 3:38
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1995 Corvette Convertible
1996 Ford Explorer
2009 Cadillac CTS-v
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Matatk Re: Oil pump failure?
Webmaster
SW Chicago Burbs
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Is there a port for a mechanical gauge?
Posted on: 2014/4/25 12:23
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rklessdriver Re: Oil pump failure?
Senior Guru
Woodbridge, VA
1318 Posts
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Are you sure the drain pan was clean before you drained the oil?

If the pan was clean thats a serious problem....

Take a small magnet and drag it thru that oil and see if the particals are magnetic.
Will
Posted on: 2014/4/25 13:47
_________________
1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide.
Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials.

1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed.
Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station.
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LD85 Re: Oil pump failure?
Master Guru
Indianapolis, Indiana
784 Posts
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I had similar problem on my 85, oil pressure went down to 8-9, I put a new pump on and checked everything out and out it back together and it was fine, weird cause the pump looked fine

I would look into a new oil pump but FIRST, put a mechanical guage on it
Posted on: 2014/5/2 23:08
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