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| Vette91 | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Guru
 
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The problem with modern stuff is that we are not allowed to install it until we waive the pros of a historic registration ... so we have to get that Bose stuff.
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Posted on: 2015/3/1 23:31
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| Matatk | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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That's my understanding of it as far as the spring / horn.
For your radio question, are you installing the Bose or non-bose version? If the speaker locations on the dashboard are not cut out then you had Bose originally. Based on the picture from the door it looks like you had bose. Where the square is cut out in the door panel, a plastic box that held the amplifier and speaker was inserted in there. If you look for an old stereo thread that I did you can see where I removed that box and what it looks like. The rear speakers also have a plastic housing. |
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Posted on: 2015/3/2 1:40
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| bogus | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
 
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Quote:
so they will forbid a historic resto, just because of modern audio? Do they have any idea how much of Frankenstein your car is? You do know I am laughing at such an ignorant set of bureaucratic standards... on a car they know jack shit about? That radio is nowhere near correct... They never offered a CD in the early C4s... If It was me, I would put the oem bose in, non-functioning, and leave it at that, then upgrade the entire mess. |
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Posted on: 2015/3/2 2:46
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Matatk | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Quote:
Sorry, to be more clear than my original post. Based on the doors, you previously had Bose. If you have dash speakers currently installed, that was due to the previous owner putting them there with an aftermarket radio. If you want to put Bose in, you need the whole system - head unit, 2x door speakers with amps, 2x door enclosures, 2x front grills, 2x rear speakers and amps, 2x rear enclosures, and 2x rear grills. If you want non-Bose you can keep the speaker locations as they are (dash and rear) with aftermarket speakers and any GM style headunit that is non-Bose. http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/19142/ |
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Posted on: 2015/3/2 11:47
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| Vette91 | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Quote:
The rules are a little strange ... It is allowed to upgrade/modify with parts of the same generation or older. So the '91 enginge, suspension and wheels are OK. Even a C3-steering wheel would be OK. Custom wheels or body parts that have been produced 30 years ago are OK. Brake system is allowed to get an upgrade not younger than 10 years after the end of production of the C4-generation, so C5-brakes are OK and ABS is, too. But a modern Porsche/Brembo/C6 would not ... It is not allowed to get a C5 paint e.g. or put C5-seats in or get a modern radio or modern headlights. It is better to have no radio or a broken one than modern stuff. That's why most people install OEM stuff and get a mp3-player with FM-sender. However, a modern radio with the look of OEM or same generation-GM would be OK. I really hate that strange rules! Welcome to german bureaucracy ... The car had custom speakers (Visaton); two at the doors and four at the rear powered by a huge amp. I found OEM-speakers at the dash which were not connected. |
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Posted on: 2015/3/2 14:58
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| bogus | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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Those are the most anal rules I have ever heard of... who thinks this shit up? I mean, someone, or a group of someones, must sit down and think up ways to make life as inconvenient as possible! I believable... and we think we have problems here in the States!
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Posted on: 2015/3/2 15:10
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| GRIS | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Elite Guru
 
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AND THAT, ANDY, IS LIFE IN GERMANY. |
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Posted on: 2015/3/2 18:07
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REMEMBER THE GOOD OLD DAYS WHEN NOUNS HAD GENDER AND PEOPLE HAD SEX? ---"yellow is for folks who think a bright red Corvette is too restrained." |
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| Matatk | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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I would find a GM non bose head unit and install speakers in the rear and the dash and be done with it. These would probably require minor trimming for the center bezel: http://www.ebay.com/itm/98-01-GMC-Che ... sh=item58bdffa0a7&vxp=mtr http://www.ebay.com/itm/92-Camaro-Del ... sh=item3aa3a72587&vxp=mtr http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-93-02-Cam ... sh=item25a127b2c2&vxp=mtr Good info here: http://www.carstereohelp.com/strcorvette.htm Check out this link here: http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c ... e/2759723-1989-radio.html  |
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Posted on: 2015/3/2 23:15
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Senior Guru
 
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What he said.
Go with the base model stereo. Is anyone going to check the speakers as long as the stock covers are in place? Bose system in 85 had 4 separate amps, inside each speaker enclosure. Head unit had no amplifier. It will cost you an arm and a leg to duplicate this POS system. The speakers were all 4" round I believe, and the enclosures were plastic, in the doors and in the rear hatch. Dash had blank plastic fillers with speaker fabric over them. Non-bose system in 85 I believe had amp in the head unit, nothing in doors, and used 4x6 speakers in dash, and I guess 6x9 in back. Pretty simple to replicate if you find a proper headunit. Or you can put speakers in all 6 locations. I have tweeters in the dash and mids in the doors, and 6x9 in back, and it looks 100% factory except the headunit I have. |
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Posted on: 2015/3/3 1:47
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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| Vette91 | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Thanks for the links! We should give the '94 Camaro w/ CD a try.
No one will check anything under a cover. Even the '94 Camaro with CD should be OK as it does look 1980/90 got english labels and most of the time the inspecting person does not know the difference to the Corvette radio. Unfortunately they are not complete idiots and can tell the difference between a 1980th radio and e.g. a 2015 JVC ... Will do some research on the Camaro radio and keep you informed. |
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Posted on: 2015/3/4 16:44
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| Vette91 | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Right now I am in the middle of swapping the '85 Corvette ECM to '730 F-body. Found the pinout of both at http://chevythunder.com/fuel%20injection%20ecm%20pinouts.htm
The '730 pigtail I work on does have a few differences. For example there is: - no wire at A4 which should be MAP 5V ref. - no orange wire at A8 which should be "serial data" but it is at A9 - no wire at B6 which should be ground for CTS and MAP - a wire at B7 (not used in your pinout) - no wires at B9 and 11 which should be VSS input Found wiring diagrams at http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/ECMs/92-7730v8tpi-1.jpg I believe all '730 ECM should have the same "internal" wiring. So I have to reorder the pins of the pigtail I have in a way that matches the pinout of chevythunder and the wiring diagrams of eecis.udel.edu, right? Best wishes Eike |
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Posted on: 2015/4/19 11:21
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| Matatk | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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That is a pretty common upgrade for the 85s. It gets rid of the crappy MAF system and the computer is faster and better for tuning.
That's pretty much the way it works, just repin the connectors to the correct input. |
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Posted on: 2015/4/19 12:38
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| Vette91 | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Got a pretty fast reply from chevythunder:
All 730 ecms are exactly the same internally, the only differences in the pin outs is if it is for a V6 or V8, and the chip is different. My diagram is for the V8 engine. So what I have could be a V6 pigtail ... will mod it equal the V8 pinout. |
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Posted on: 2015/4/19 13:54
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| bogus | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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do you have the pin popper?
IF not, you can make one real easy... Go to your local hobby-type shop (my best suggestion) and get some small copper, brass or aluminum tubing. Get a meter length of the stuff... then you can make a bunch of tools! Find the diameter that fits the connector, push it in, and it will release the locking tab, allowing the pin to come out easily. Figure 2mm is a good start... Otherwise, there are companies that sell the right GM pin popper, and they are not very expensive. Under $20, I would think. But the tube is only going to cost a couple of Euro. Check square tubing, too... some GM connectors use square contacts. |
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Posted on: 2015/4/20 16:57
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| -=Jeff=- | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Master Guru
 
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A Jewelers screwdrive will work too.. that is what I used for the 7730 ECM connectors
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Posted on: 2015/4/20 17:44
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-=Jeff=- 1990 Corvette ZR-1 #1051 |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Senior Guru
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Or rip apart an old toy antenna, multiple sizes to choose from.
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Posted on: 2015/4/22 16:06
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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| Vette91 | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Guru
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I used a 1.6mm spiral drill to get the pins out. ECM is almost done. 3 wires left ...
B9 VSS low (401) B10 VSS high (400) B11 VSS to dash (???) According to what I found until now the Vehicle Speed Sensor puts out a 4k pulse sinus wave to the dash. But with the '730 the 4k sin wave goes to the ECM first. That would mean I should run the VSS to the ECM B9 (401) and B10 (400) then use the B11 output back to the dash. I found a wiring diagram at the service manual: 401 and 400 are the speed sensor. These wires go to connector 12034348 and finally to the instrument cluster at D11 (400) and C15 (401). There is an output at the Cluster D12 going to the old ECM as speed sensor signal. This is not used during the conversion to '730 ECM. Now I'm not sure what to do ... Cut the wires 400/401 sensor to cluster and connect them to the '730 B9/B10 and do ??? with B11 ... Or not cut the wires to keep the connection of the VSS to the instrument panel and splice them to the '730 ECM? I don't like getting computer gremlins so maybe you guys can give me an advice? Attach file:  _EIK4758.JPG (627.68 KB) |
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Posted on: 2015/6/7 16:51
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| Vette91 | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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I found a diagram of '727 VSS-connection. The ECM outputs to cruise control, CCM and radio. The CCM forwards to the instrument cluster ...
Attach file:  vss_727.png (76.16 KB) |
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Posted on: 2015/6/7 20:27
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| Vette91 | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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But the 1985 ECM does NOT Forward to the cruise control. It's the instrument cluster which does! So to me it does not make any sense to have an output of the speed signal and I can just splice the ECM direct to the VSS ...
Does that sound right? Attach file: CC_1985.JPG (814.63 KB) |
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Posted on: 2015/6/7 20:28
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| bogus | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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hm... I am not thinking clearly today... I have been fighting a chest cold and am not nearly at 100%...
I can say this... you don't have a CCM! I think you need the earlier VSS. That VSS you are using has a high and low output. What that means is anyones guess at this time. but, you need a VSS with one output - SPEED damnit! Now, you are running the 1991 ECM, right? You will need to get that programmed so it won't be looking for the CCM. I hope we are not repeating here, but... the CCM is what controls VATS. It reads the chip on the key, which then sends a message to the ECM to start or not start. Turning off the CCM on the ECM should disable VATS. Since the 85 had the cruise control integrated into the dash, that becomes the CCM, sort of. If I have read all of this right... 1. use the right VSS for 1991 computer, send data from VSS to ECM. 2. Splice the two wires from the VSS straight to the Instrument Panel. It needs the raw data. That's what I think is going on... The key? A and B on the VSS looks the same on both applications. |
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Posted on: 2015/6/7 21:28
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Vette91 | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Get well soon!
Right, no CCM. I have a '730 F-body ECM. Can programm it by myself and there is no CCM and VATS in the programming ;-) '85 VSS is #25007224 '90 VSS is #25007224 '91 VSS is #10456092 I have to figure out the difference between '90 and '91 tomorrow. Afaik all the programming is '90 so the '85 VSS should be OK ... It's midnight right now ... have to get some sleep ... |
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Posted on: 2015/6/7 22:04
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| Schrade | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Elite Guru
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Re-pinning sockets! I did a tower pc once - 7 sockets for front panel connector. Don't want to do it again nOPe!
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Posted on: 2015/6/8 0:38
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LT5, Marc Haibeck ECM module, AUTOMATIC!!! 
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| CentralCoaster | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Senior Guru
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In theory you should be able to splice the VSS output and send it separately to the 85 dash and to the new ECM.
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Posted on: 2015/6/8 18:15
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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| Vette91 | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Spliced that stuff and will see what will happen ...
We didn't work a lot on the car recently. I was gone fishing a lot and took some time for family related stuff. Decoded the mystery of ABS and radio this weekend. I hate it when people cut wires and not label them. Here are a few pics of the radio stuff. Please correct me if I am wrong.       |
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Posted on: 2015/6/21 18:08
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| bogus | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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I can't help here... I have neither the 85 or 89 manuals... 87 might be somewhat useful, but I would rather not risk being wrong...
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Posted on: 2015/6/21 22:00
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Senior Guru
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You do have a manual right? If not, let me know I can upload it to dropbox for you or something. I only have the electrical scanned. I've added hyperlinks to the index and some other parts. It shows all the connectors and all those pinouts.
Non-bose cars had dash speakers up front, and they didn't have speaker amps. Idk why you're trying to add ABS to it. I can live without it just fine. Stock brakes always worked great for most driving. I've read too many nightmare stories about the ABS on these not bleeding or getting enough pressure to the brakes (albiet mostly with 88+ cars). |
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Posted on: 2015/6/22 22:23
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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| -=Jeff=- | Re: 1985 C4 - almost frame off | ||
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Master Guru
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difference in the 90 to 91 VSS sensors is the connector they have different styles, but both function the same internally |
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Posted on: 2015/8/19 16:05
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-=Jeff=- 1990 Corvette ZR-1 #1051 |
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