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bogus Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
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How bad is it if someone pressure washes an organic friction disc?

Posted on: 2014/10/27 15:52
Edited by bogus on 2015/2/2 0:03:45
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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from my research... no... annoying maybe, bad, no.

don't get a Zoom clutch... they don't last. This one has only 20k miles on it and it's slipping like a mofo...
Posted on: 2014/10/27 21:13
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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The slipping is getting much worse... 65 MPH, 5th gear, hit the gas and it's like driving an old school automatic without a locking torque converter. I am losing acceleration with this thing.

Recommendations?
Posted on: 2014/11/6 18:50
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captmike13 Re: Silly Clutch Question....
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Could it be bad pressure plate?
Posted on: 2014/11/6 19:14
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
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I guess... it's going to be hard to assess for sure without taking it apart.

I have always been under the impression that Valeo made all the pressure plates, so I am hoping they have some QC here.

The clutch is a ZOOM, installed summer 2009, and has about 25k miles on it.
Posted on: 2014/11/6 19:58
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BrianCunningham Re: Silly Clutch Question....
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Had a real bad oil leaked that soaked one on me
Posted on: 2014/11/6 21:57
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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that would have to be an epic leak! The rear main is in front of everything, could come from the manifold... but no signs of epic leaks. I already checked. Normal SBC drips.

New rear main when engine was installed 2 years ago.

I am not sure what is bad... when I shift, I push the pedal and the clutch disengages RIGHT NOW. I get over rev and I don't even want it.
Posted on: 2014/11/6 22:37
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CentralCoaster Re: Silly Clutch Question....
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If the clutch is disengaging that quickly, then it may not even be fully engaged to begin with. So ask yourself what could preload the pressure plate. I would expect anything tweaked in the linkage to do just the opposite of what you describe.

I think the pressure plate sounds more likely if mechanical.

Is the clutch pedal coming up fully to allow the port to the reservoir to open up? If it is, with the cap off you should see it squirt a little when you jab the pedal quickly.
Posted on: 2014/11/10 6:22
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
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I will check the hydraulics... I would expect a bend in the fork to have the opposite effect on a pull type clutch.

When I get the car up in the air, I will check the slave and the fork.
Posted on: 2014/11/10 17:24
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
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clutch theory... and why I am so baffled.

the slipping started a few weeks ago, the clutch was initially installed in July 2009, and reinstalled in Jan 2013.

It's a GM OEM Dual Mass Flywheel, with a ZOOM brand OEM style clutch. In general, it has been working fine.

For those coming into this thread in the future, here is how the clutch works...

There are two kinds of clutches these days, pull or push type.

A pull type (which we have) or a push type.

A pull type means that the lever point on the clutch fork is of such, that the hydraulics are pushing on the fork to pull the clutch off the flywheel and disengage the clutch.

If the fork is bent, I would expect it to make the clutch harder to disengage, not slip, if anything, too tight...

Thoughts?
Posted on: 2014/11/11 18:04
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jonszr1 Re: Silly Clutch Question....
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Lone Pine, CA
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andy, just call bill boudreau 602 319 6575. he will figure it out for ya
Posted on: 2014/11/12 16:46
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i have a blast playing with my 4 babies 2 zr1s and 2 mustangs 68 coupe with a jon bennit 408 art car fully rollered c4 with a gearvendors over drive .88 mustang built by my kids with a ported lt5 and a bill boudreau blue printed zf 6 spd. with these 4 ...
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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Oh, I am sure it's a clutch problem... and at this point, money being money, it is just as efficient to buy all new clutch and be done.

I will drop Bill an email.

Posted on: 2014/11/12 16:54
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jonszr1 Re: Silly Clutch Question....
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I have a spec stage 2 with a ceramic disc. it had 60k hard miles on it when we pulled the motor to replace the short block on my 90 zr1 and it looked so good we just put it back in. something to ponder on ....... oh my 92 went by by finally today sad to see her go .like losing a member of the fanily....
Posted on: 2014/11/14 3:03
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i have a blast playing with my 4 babies 2 zr1s and 2 mustangs 68 coupe with a jon bennit 408 art car fully rollered c4 with a gearvendors over drive .88 mustang built by my kids with a ported lt5 and a bill boudreau blue printed zf 6 spd. with these 4 ...
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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yea... cheap shit organic clutches ain't all that much of a value...

Posted on: 2014/11/14 18:53
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BrianCunningham Re: Silly Clutch Question....
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Quote:

bogus wrote:
that would have to be an epic leak!..


It was, rear main seal was gone

Easy to check, see if there's any oil behind the dust cover.

Just watch the dust cover, it's easy to dent with the starter teeth.

same thing with the clutch fork, real easy to bend, though I don't seeing bending after it's been running for a while.

If the hydraulic is LOW it won't DISENGAGE.
Posted on: 2014/11/14 19:05
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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I just did an oil change... no sign of that much oil coming out... light drip? Sure, common, but not a gusher.

A bent fork or low fluid would have the same end result - disengagement, not engagement... A slip is an engagement problem!
Posted on: 2014/11/14 21:06
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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The clutch is slipping sooooo bad....

How bad is it slipping???

so bad, that it's hurting my biweekly MPG by about 40 miles.

I could easily go 300 miles on a tank... now I am drying out at 260.

Time to take it apart, I guess... I am aiming for next weekend, or the weekend after that.
Posted on: 2014/11/20 19:42
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jonszr1 Re: Silly Clutch Question....
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I had the same problem on my 92 and the clutch disc was worn out . but I also had a fidanze flywheel and it was worn to. when you put the zoom in did you change flywheels. or just reuse the dual mass.?again call bill 6023196575. he works late sso don't be afraid to call.
Posted on: 2014/11/21 2:23
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i have a blast playing with my 4 babies 2 zr1s and 2 mustangs 68 coupe with a jon bennit 408 art car fully rollered c4 with a gearvendors over drive .88 mustang built by my kids with a ported lt5 and a bill boudreau blue printed zf 6 spd. with these 4 ...
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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There is no need to bother Bill on this one... the diag is so cut and dry.

It was a new GM DMFW at the time. I plan on reusing it...
Posted on: 2014/11/21 10:58
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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I found a LuK clutch at RockAuto for $204, shipped...

I don't need nor want a performance clutch at this time. Mostly, I don't know what my future engine plans are. I am seriously leaning towards an LSx conversion... so whatever I do, it can't be too specific...
Posted on: 2014/11/23 22:13
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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Update:

I have spent the last 3 weeks trying to work on my clutch.

I started over the New Years weekend, and got a bad case of the lazies... after I discovered I couldn't find half of my tools... I will get to why...

Last weekend, more tool searching, but it rained all weekend... so no progress.

Yesterday, thought I had the tools, alas, no... so back more tool searching...

now why for the tool searching... I will be blunt... and I am a little pissed... a friend, who will remain nameless here, had been a good (and sorta) reliable guy who would help me out around the house in exchange, I would help him on his 92 Vette from time to time. No biggie...

He was hard working and pretty cool to hang out with and really seemed to want to learn more.

Well, he also has some deep rooted, diagnosed mental issues. Nothing dangerous, per se, but enough to make him unreliable. And this had been becoming a bit of an issue for the last few months. Little drama's getting in the way.

Well, he informs me that his mom is moving home (a foreign country)... and he proceeds to mentally unwind...

I felt bad for him, real bad, but his decision making became more and more unpredictable and generally bad. And after a number very annoying actions over the last 6+ months, I finally told him to keep away until he got his shit straight.

One of those things he did was upend my toolbox... he had given me his tool box, very nice, yes, but in an attempt to organize my garage, he upends my box all over the floor and leaves me with shit scattered everywhere! This is why I am three weeks into a 2 day clutch job. I am standing there, next thing I hear is a crash as everything hits the floor... sockets, ratchets, wrenches... I had already moved much of what was in box B into box A and now he dumped box A all over the floor...

I did get him on a plane the other night to be with his Mom, where he needs to be for a while. And I am not off to continue making sense of my garage.

I feel a tremendous amount of responsibility towards him; his Mom asked me to keep him straight when she moved, and I said I would. I did try... but it wasn't easy. I share this because those with mental illness don't know they are off, even when diagnosed and on meds... he meant well, but he burned people out... boundary issues, OCD, demanding things, immaturity... And they spiral out of control without a proper anchor to keep them centered.

I share this so others can be better equipped to handle things like this... I can't be angry, because in his heart, he felt he was doing right, I know that, and I also know he never meant harm... but he has a hard time processing what isn't right to what is right. Perhaps here hasn't been enough vocational therapy to help him learn these things, and since he is about my age, I would not be surprised... the stigma of mental illness is so very powerful in parts of our culture, that its easier to ignore it and bury it than fix it.

Oh well, back to the garage... about an hour should get me more sorted, but it ain't pretty by any means... I can't even find my own pneumatic impact gun... sigh...

Epilogue:

I don't want to ID this person, but I do what to make it perfectly clear, tho it is a CG member it is NOT NelsonV... he is as nearly (in)sane I as I am... and as close to a brother as I have out here. If you ever get the chance to meet him take it, great guy!
Posted on: 2015/1/18 20:02
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TommyT-Bone Re: Silly Clutch Question....
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I thought being crazy was a Guru prerequisite ..... Nevermind ..... Back to our regularly scheduled thread .
Posted on: 2015/1/18 21:12
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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that is different kinda crazy...
Posted on: 2015/1/19 2:43
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CentralCoaster Re: Silly Clutch Question....
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I'll swing by next weekend and put it back in for you. I can drop it on your head too for old times sake. ;)

Have fun with the C-beam! And that damn top left bellhousing bolt. Ahh the memories.

Btw my rear seal leaks worse than Brady's balls, and I've never had clutch slippage. Or a clean driveway.
Posted on: 2015/1/24 3:26
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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no real leaks... just slippage.

I am going under there now... need to get things apart.
Posted on: 2015/1/25 19:36
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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ok... trans is out... this is NOT a one person job... one is needed to work the jack... one to work the gearbox.

So... Kevin... you wanna come help me put this POS back together Saturday?

The bell housing is currently stuck... Not sure how I did that... can't quite get the spring to release the fork... grrr... will read up on that.

Otherwise... moving forward!
Posted on: 2015/1/26 1:23
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CentralCoaster Re: Silly Clutch Question....
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Aww you shoulda called. I might have been up for that with enough beers.

I did my ZF a few times solo using the Harbor Freight tranny jack. Worth it even if you use it once, although you have to get the ass end up high on 6 ton stands to roll it in there from the back. The Cbeam was always a fight though no matter how many times. Harder than it was with the 4+3. (I actually ground the top front of the Cbeam down to make it easier to slip on.)

If the bellhousing is loose, but the fork is stopping it from coming completely off, then you need to screw the pivot stud into the bellhousing. If there is a flush looking fastener in there with a small allen head, that is the pivot stud locking bolt. That has to unscrew first. Then, you will see the larger allen head in the pivot bolt, and the bellhousing threads.

If all of this doesn't make 100% sense let me know. 6195208685.
Posted on: 2015/2/1 6:00
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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all of that makes sense... the last time I tried to unscrew the pivot, it tore up the brass inside the allen head... so I am boned there.

Off I go to get it off... I think I know what the problem is...

Posted on: 2015/2/1 18:57
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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got it off... took some wiggling, but the clutch is out.

need to get some grease for the TO bearing. I like to put a skim over the surface where the clutch for rides.

The friction disc was down to rivets... seriously toast and only 30k miles!!!!!!!!
Posted on: 2015/2/1 21:28
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pianoguy Re: Silly Clutch Question....
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Congrats, Andy ;-)
Posted on: 2015/2/1 21:30
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question....
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
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new one is in... but I am worried... the pressure plate fingers are almost flattened out against the throwout bearing.

And GM has 2 pressure plate part numbers, the aftermarket, one. I thought there was a geometry difference.

about 12 years ago, SPEC sent me the wrong pressure plate, it was .25" closer to the engine than the LT1 pp... this was due to a difference in geometry inside the bellhousing for the ZR1.

Is this right? How can they offer only one clutch if the fitment is that different?
Posted on: 2015/2/1 23:59
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jonszr1 Re: Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
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no there are defiantly 2 different clutches. I think you might have gotten the zr1 clutch. I would call bill boudreau and share with him what is going n before going any further 602 3196575 he knows everything about this stuff. jmho
Posted on: 2015/2/2 3:57
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i have a blast playing with my 4 babies 2 zr1s and 2 mustangs 68 coupe with a jon bennit 408 art car fully rollered c4 with a gearvendors over drive .88 mustang built by my kids with a ported lt5 and a bill boudreau blue printed zf 6 spd. with these 4 ...
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jonszr1 Re: Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
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did you pull out a actual valeo pressure plate . the new ones are made in china and are failing like crazy . ask bill about that tooo......enlightening
Posted on: 2015/2/2 4:00
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i have a blast playing with my 4 babies 2 zr1s and 2 mustangs 68 coupe with a jon bennit 408 art car fully rollered c4 with a gearvendors over drive .88 mustang built by my kids with a ported lt5 and a bill boudreau blue printed zf 6 spd. with these 4 ...
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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I have LuK replacement, and it was made in Brazil of all places...

I will drop Bill a line on this one. I know what happens when you put a ZR1 pressure plate on an LT1... nothing, happens... cause you can't get it into gear!
Posted on: 2015/2/2 4:59
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
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line dropped... Bill and I have communicated in the past on tech issues, so I don't think I am an entire stranger to him.

Posted on: 2015/2/2 5:08
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CentralCoaster Re: Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
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I have the ZR1 pressure plate and clutch in mine, and a spare new one on the shelf. The pressure plate is much much thicker than the base model. Functionally though it's the same. I don't know if the clutch disk is different, it doesn't look like anything special.

I have no idea why GM did this, seems unnecessary, all it accomplished was moving the throwout bearing and fork rearward about 1/2" or so. They could have designed the ZR1 bellhousing to use they same clutch and hydraulic alignment.

If you had a ZR1 clutch kit on there it'd probably still fit but would mess up your fork alignment, and probably not give it enough travel to disengage.


BTW the pivot stud has to turn clockwise to come out, it will fall inside the bellhousing when you have it loose. They get tight I guess, steel and magnesium are dissimilar, they get sticky together, but I'm guessing half those reports are people turning it the wrong way.

I heard years back that the ZR1 clutch would be discontinued, but that's just rumors. I wouldn't expect the LT1 clutch to fit it without at least some careful checking of the pivot stud length and fork travel.


BTW, gm has 3 different ZF bellhousing lengths, and 2 different pressure plates. And different pivot studs too. And a different t/o bearing for black vs blue tag. I think the clutch discs are all the same.
Posted on: 2015/2/5 16:10
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CentralCoaster Re: Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
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Quote:

jonszr1 wrote:
did you pull out a actual valeo pressure plate . the new ones are made in china and are failing like crazy . ask bill about that tooo......enlightening


The actual pressure plate, or the bearing? The bearing in these kits has been chinese shit for a long time.
Posted on: 2015/2/5 16:27
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CentralCoaster Re: Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
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Here's this old thing.

Attach file:



gif  clutchpartslist.gif (24.83 KB)
793_54d39b184d61c.gif 795X551 px
Posted on: 2015/2/5 16:32
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CentralCoaster Re: Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
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I also did this awhile back. I *think* it's a drawing of the zr1 clutch on my 85, with the early base ZF bellhousing and aftermarket replacement 85 pressure plate.

But it works damn good, never a slip from my 196 rwhp beast. So if your pp fingers aren't about 2 inches from the bellhousing, then I'd be suspect. (Yes, that's right, I said pp fingers!)

Attach file:



bmp  zfbellhousing.bmp (757.53 KB)
793_54d39c9b92cd3.bmp 504X513 px
Posted on: 2015/2/5 16:38
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
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I figured it out... the clutch is correct.

LuK had 2 part numbers = 04-0414 for LT5 and 04-0413 for the LT1.

Posted on: 2015/2/5 17:20
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NelsonV Re: Silly Clutch Question....
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Sunny Southern CA
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Quote:

bogus wrote:
it is NOT NelsonV...
But why do I always get mentioned in the same conversations as this guy?! We don't even look alike!
Posted on: 2015/2/5 18:32
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
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I know, but they don't...
Posted on: 2015/2/5 19:03
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
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I am pretty sure the friction disc is in backwards.

meaning, the thick side of the disc hub is out, where it needs to be in, towards the engine.


Attach file:



png  clutch.png (47.01 KB)
3_54d68448347e3.png 671X518 px
Posted on: 2015/2/7 21:32
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
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clutch is in... hyrdaulics... starter... bellhousing...

can't get the damn trans back in. it is not a one person job... Can't get it to stay on the trans jack... can't quite get it under the car...

pissing me off big time...

Posted on: 2015/2/15 23:58
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BrianCunningham Re: Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
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Boston, MA for the most part :)
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sometimes it's better to sleep on it
Posted on: 2015/2/16 0:44
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Matatk Re: Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
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Quote:

BrianCunningham wrote:
sometimes it's better to sleep on it


I think sleeping on the transmission would be more uncomfortable that just trying to put it in.
Posted on: 2015/2/16 13:27
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
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Sleeping won't help... I need a 2nd body to help me pick up said transmission and help drive the jack.
Posted on: 2015/2/16 17:17
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rklessdriver Re: Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
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Woodbridge, VA
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Just bench press that bad boy in there.
Posted on: 2015/2/16 17:29
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1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed.
Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station.
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bogus Re: Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
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not with my back... sadly... I wish I could... I have gotten so flabby it's not even funny. embarrassing, really.
Posted on: 2015/2/16 18:07
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captmike13 Re: Silly Clutch Question.... [UPDATED!!!]
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Hillsboro Mo
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Welcome to the getting old club Andy.
Posted on: 2015/2/16 19:17
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