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| CentralCoaster | ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Senior Guru
 
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Now, this is very preliminary, but I'll update it when I get a chance to diagnose it. I'm just trying to figure out if there's anything simple I'm not thinking of before I get down and dirty with it.
I let the GF drive me home last night in the '85 vette (with ZF6 conversion) because I was too drunk. She did ok, stalled it a few times and lugged it a bunch, but we got back alive, and the car seemed to work fine (and no wheels fell off  )This morning I get in and the shifter doesn't want to come out of reverse. I muscled it out of reverse but now I can't get it back into any gear whether the car is running or not. It's stuck in neutral. Clutch feels fine, has proper resistance, and has fluid. I've broken the linkage previously and had air in the system and this doesn't feel like that. Now before, even without pushing in the clutch I could shift it into some gears with the engine off, now I can't, even with letting the car roll back a bit. So the trans is not siezed entirely (car rolls in neutral with clutch out) but it won't go into any gear. It worked fine yesterday. I'm thinking it's damaged internally or the fluid is low and caused the synchro hubs to stick once they cooled down overnight. The rear yoke and seal leak a little, but I always kept a close eye on the fluid. Car sat for the past 3 weeks until yesterday because I was working on the steering system, unrelated stuff. I have the Hurst shifter, but can't think of anything in the shifter that would cause this problem, the shifter movement feels normal other than not going into gear. Anyone else had this happen? The black tag trans has about 100K on it, I bought it used 2 years ago. I'm running a 85 1-pc flywheel and a ZF pull-type clutch and hydraulics. If the fluid and clutch travel check out fine it looks like I'm stuck with pulling the transmission out. What do you guys think? Anything in the clutch that can cause this? Clutch is only 18 months old. I replaced it when the throwout bearing went out on the first one after only 4 months. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/4 21:56
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| pianoguy | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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I can send you some transmission mojo, but that's about all I've got. You did remind me that I need to give my wife some 6-speed driving lessons this summer, or else she may have to sharpen my feet and pound me into the ground if anything happens on the road.
Good luck! |
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Posted on: 2008/2/4 22:24
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| Notorious | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Elite Guru
 
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I've seen clutch discs stick and cause such a problem. It will generally still feel normal if it does this, but will not allow proper disengagement. It could be a problem with the pressure plate too. I'm sure if the tranny had leaked enough in three weeks to cause some kind of internal failure, you'd have noticed the oil where it was sitting. Hopefully you'll find something simple that just hasn't come to mind yet. Keep us posted.
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Posted on: 2008/2/4 23:36
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| bogus | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
 
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you are also running the dual mass flywheel's friction disc... that could have cause this issue - no shock absorption properties and it has welded itself. Especially if the GF slipped it a lot.
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Posted on: 2008/2/5 0:30
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| byebyeL98 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Guru Newb
 
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Just throwing an idea out there - could it have anything to do with the CAGS solenoid? You probably don't have it plugged into anything (like me), but I'm wondering if it somehow caused something to lock up?
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Posted on: 2008/2/5 2:36
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´87 coupe, 383, ZF 6 Speed, 4.10s |
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| CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Yeah I was pondering how the clutch disc could stay stuck to either plate, but it seems like it'd have to be down to the rivets to do that. I've smoked it quite a few times at the track, but damn it's only 18 months old. And like I said, it's never been that hard before to go into a gear with the clutch engaged, just had to roll the car a bit.
Fek it's dark and I'm not sure how to get it in the garage by myself. I'll make her push since she f'd it up. It can't be cags, it's unhooked and only affects 2nd/3rd. No way it can lock out 5/6/R rods. I should remove it though anyways, it's in the way of removing the slave. Probably some stupid rare metric thread size though. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/5 4:07
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| CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Being smart sucks, already have convinced myself it's an internal transmission failure and haven't even touched the car yet!
Kinda like when my throwout bearing broke last year, I knew it within about 10 seconds, at least it took the guess work out of the repair process. Crossing my fingers that it's just a lube issue and I can resurrect it. Lets see how tough these bus trannys really are! Actually it seems like even a fused synchro would let you slide it into another gear. The synchros I've seen can pivot relative to the splined piece and collar by a few degrees to let the teeth line up with the gear it's engaging. So to prevent all the synchros from lining up, either they are all fused, or something is keeping the gears from rotating enough to line up with the synchro collars. That's be a siezed gear on the mainshaft, so nothing can rotate even a little, the gears are all locked together when one siezes. But don't these trannys use needle bearings between the shaft and gears? (Unlike the american trans we're all used to.) It'd take a crapload of heat to get needle roller bearings to sieze up vs. the typical type of bearing surface that has no extra moving parts. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/5 4:22
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| BillH | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Well,this sucks.
I can't see it having anything to do with the clutch either. Even if the clutch, pp and flywheel were welded together, you should be able to get into one or two gears. If a syncro was welded, you still should have at least one set of teeth lined up somewhere. Have you tried to push the shifter towards a gear and bump the engine? Yea, the gear bearings are needle and can stand a lot of abuse and heat. The puzzling thing is that it was hard to get out of reverse and that sounds like a problem with the shift rails, if the reverse slider was screwed up, I'd think you still should be able to get into another gear. I guess you have no noise starting the motor in neutral, or you would have mentioned it. Dumping the oil is going to tell you something. Good Luck, hope it's inexpensive. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/5 16:24
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| CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Now she tells me she ground reverse a few times on the highway on the way back. This is due to me not familiarizing her with the Hurst shifter.
I'll get to it tonight. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/5 16:54
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| NC Kid | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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I am not familiar with transmissions. Just issues I have had and have never had any experience with a manual so what does "ground reverse on the highway" mean? Maybe it means she shifted it into reverse without popping the clutch going down the highway? I wouldn't think that the tranny would allow that going at those speeds....Just wondering...
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Posted on: 2008/2/5 17:41
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| NC Kid | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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There is one more thing I would like to add. Say someone had there clutch pushed in and revved there motor up to say 4000 RPMs while it was in 1st gear and popped out the clutch. Would that not basically rip the flywheel out of the tranny thus having it cut through the firewall like a sawblade on wood? It seems possible when you think about it....Totally off topic but that thought popped into my mind. :tongue:
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Posted on: 2008/2/5 17:42
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| MK 82 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Quote:
Now she tells me she ground reverse a few times on the highway on the way back. This is due to me not familiarizing her with the Hurst shifter. Man, you must have been out of it! I would give ZFDOC a call. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/5 17:58
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| MK 82 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Quote:
There is one more thing I would like to add. Say someone had there clutch pushed in and revved there motor up to say 4000 RPMs while it was in 1st gear and popped out the clutch. Would that not basically rip the flywheel out of the tranny thus having it cut through the firewall like a sawblade on wood? It seems possible when you think about it....Totally off topic but that thought popped into my mind. :tongue: Your mind is a scary place. The flywheel is attached to the crankshaft and the clutch is attached to it. This is all in a bellhousing that bolts to the back of the engine. The most common failure is destroying the clutch disk which is usually contained by the bell housing. You can get so called explosion proof bell housings or shields designed to contain the carnage. The ZF-6 has reverse outboard and down of 6th. My 96 has a "barge thru" lockout. If you are unfamiliar with the tranny, it is possible to grind reverse while trying to shift into 6th. I did it myself a couple of times till I got used to it. I wish reverse was on the left side above 1st. Double click on the thumbnail for fullsize. Hurst Shifter and Ball [URL=http://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01366uj8.jpg]  [/URL] |
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Posted on: 2008/2/5 18:12
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| BrianCunningham | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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It's the pink elephant you ran over the night before :D
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Posted on: 2008/2/5 18:30
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| byebyeL98 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Even if the trans is toast, you still made the right move letting her drive home.
 (Or perhaps you'll see it that way at some point in the near future...  )Definitely drain the oil to see what it looks like. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/5 18:42
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| CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Now she says I was shifting for her part of the time from the passenger seat. I don't remember grinding reverse though.
Quote: The ZF-6 has reverse outboard and down of 6th. My 96 has a "barge thru" lockout. If you are unfamiliar with the tranny, it is possible to grind reverse while trying to shift into 6th. I did it myself a couple of times till I got used to it. I wish reverse was on the left side above 1st. Double click on the thumbnail for fullsize. I have the older trans with reverse lockout. The hurst shifter swap removes the lockout, and there is no "crash thru" resistance into the reverse gate. So you can easily get lost usually when going from 4th to 5th, if you push too far to the right and can't get the shifter up. But hitting reverse into 6th takes some extra special incompetence. I let a lot of people drive my cars that have no business being behind the wheel, I guess I love sharing. The shifter works great if you just mindlessly bump it in the direction you want it to go, it hits the right gear everytime. These things have a synchro'd reverse right? So grinding reverse would simply cause some synchro wear and chew a little off the dogs on reverse gear. Ok I'll quit teasing you guys, car is going up on jackstands tonight even if I have to push it in the garage myself. A probably unrelated topic, I was siphoning black clutch fluid out of the res prior to this, and accidently dripped some PS fluid in there from my turkey baster but then cleaned it back out. But I don't think any really got in the clutch line. It turns black all the time and I have to suck it out and refill it with clean dot3. I didn't bleed it or introduce any air into the system though. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/5 18:44
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| NC Kid | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Quote:
Quote: How is it scary?  |
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Posted on: 2008/2/5 20:24
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| CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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UPDATE
Finally got the car up on blocks. The shifter doesn't feel like it's going into the reverse tree at all. Meaning it's in neutral but won't move over to the right enough to drop down into reverse, almost as if you had the reverse lockout on there, which I don't (Hurst). I recall when I got in the car after all this, I had to force the shifter forward out of reverse (or 6th?). This tells me the shift linkage or rods are some how stuck in reverse. Yet the car rolls as if it's in neutral. I can rotate the rear wheels by hand with the clutch engaged. But she swears she put it in 1st gear after parking it. Maybe without even thinking about it I got in the car that morning, went from 1st to R to back out of the driveway, and something went wrong when going into R. For the life of me I can't recall how the original reverse lockout worked before I removed it and put the Hurst in. I know it had a steel lever that lifted up, but what allowed/prevented moving the shifter to the right? Anybody got pics? I think I threw my old shifter away. Here's the report on all the other stuff I checked out: Pulled clutch slave, parts are all there, linkage feels fine, fork jiggles a little, so the pivot and attachment to the throwout bearing are fine. Drained fluid, got about 2 qts out (didn't measure exactly). Fluid looks pretty murky/thin. This is synchromesh, so it's only 5w30 to begin with. Pulled the center console plastic, can't see anything wrong with the shifter from above. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/6 6:05
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| bogus | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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there is a lever thingy on the bottom of the shifter... I have my stock one, but the reverse lockout is missing.
I would drop a note to Bill at ZFDoc and see what he has to say. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/6 6:58
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| CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Yeah but even if that was screwed, I could shift into other gears. I guess I was thinking if I could muscle it back into reverse I could unjam it.
It's screwed, I'm gonna shop for a new trans, and maybe a new gf. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/6 8:00
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| byebyeL98 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Any updates? New trans? New GF?
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Posted on: 2008/2/8 18:20
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´87 coupe, 383, ZF 6 Speed, 4.10s |
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| pappyfreebird | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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well cc alls i can say is i sure hope its jus some boner thing... n ya can fix it n whine cause ya over looked somthin so simple
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Posted on: 2008/2/8 18:30
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| CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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New trans is on its way, will be here on about tuesday. I'll tear it apart sometime this weekend.
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Posted on: 2008/2/8 22:18
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| CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Interesting. Dropped the exhaust and driveshaft last night... the trans is now stuck in gear, shifter still in neutral.
Weird. Something must be loose in there. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 3:09
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| MK 82 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Have you totally given up on repairing it?
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 3:54
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| CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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The rebuild cost is higher than the price of a new trans. Not including labor!
Even ZFdoc told me to just buy one from thepartsladi. Although I found one a little cheaper than that even. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 4:54
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| MK 82 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Wow, that's depressing. Maybe I need to stockpile one. What is an alternative replacement? Please tell me again where you got yours? Mine works fine but I plan to have this car a looooooong time.
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 4:57
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| CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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I forget, check my thread in the Parts F/S section. They have a few left.
You can usually find em used for 500-1000 in various conditions. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 5:18
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| MK 82 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Is it a Blue tag?
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 5:25
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| CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Black tag.
80K miles on it before I got it, plus 20K from me, including ~100 drag races, 3 auto-X, 2 road course events, and lots of aggressive street driving. I ran Castrol TWS in it for 10K, then Synchromesh in it for the last 10K, but ultimately looks like a combo of the Hurst shifter (no reverse lockout) and an inexperienced designated driver that did it in. Fluid was somewhat murkey and had a larger than expected flecks of copper in them. At least the new blue tag I'm getting will be quieter and have the crash-through reverse feature. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 5:28
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| MK 82 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Sounds like it got rode hard!
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 5:54
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| Jeffvette | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Quote:
Sounds like it got rode hard! Nah, to have it lock up it was low on fluid. The syncrho froze up. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 5:58
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| CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Synchro wasn't frozen, it's something in the linkage. It won't even go into the reverse tree, and I don't think that can be related to synchros. I check the fluid at every oil change too.
Maybe I'll measure the fluid I drained anyways, it's still in the pan. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 6:11
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| CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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New blue tag transmission arriving tomorrow from RemanExpress in Oklahoma City. :thumbright:
(Transmission is NEW in crate, Ryan has about 4 left at $1250 + $130 shipping.) |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 17:56
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| byebyeL98 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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That's what I went with (new in crate blue tag) and so far I've been very happy with it.
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 18:02
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´87 coupe, 383, ZF 6 Speed, 4.10s |
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| CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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I can't really complain about the black tag. I bought it from Bill McDonald (CF) for $800 and got plenty of fun out of it. I think it died a premature death.
Wonder how long it'll take for me to do an autopsy? I still need to get rid of this 4+3 (minus overdrive). Collecting transmissions is a bad idea. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 18:14
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| byebyeL98 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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You should dissect it! Pulling apart a ZF would be interesting. And you wouldn't have to worry about putting it back together. Have a few beers and start ripping sh1t out of it!
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Posted on: 2008/2/13 2:35
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| jsup | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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I have nothing to ad, as transmissions are a mystery to me. Just can't wanted to say please pull that thing apart, I can't wait to see the conclusion.
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Posted on: 2008/2/13 3:11
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| bogus | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Quote:
I can't really complain about the black tag. I bought it from Bill McDonald (CF) for $800 and got plenty of fun out of it. I think it died a premature death. take it apart... find out what broke... then send it off to Bill @ ZF Doc for a full on rebuild. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/13 4:36
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| cuisinartvette | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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your mind is a scary place
Forget ZF doc, just stick the new one in. 3k for a rebuild is a ripoff. Its just a transmission. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/13 5:21
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| CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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take it apart... find out what broke... then send it off to Bill @ ZF Doc for a full on rebuild. Will do, I'll have him send you the bill. :thumbright: |
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Posted on: 2008/2/13 17:48
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| CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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New trans is here! :thumbright: GM's packaging sucks! It's just a huge cardboard box with some loose packing in there, looks like the trans was trying to escape the box during transit.
Also has a huge label on there about warranty: "Warranty will only be honored if GM fluid #........ is used." It's also a blue tag. I've heard others mention green tags and grey tags for the replacements. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/13 19:20
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| BrianCunningham | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Nice price.
I'm tempted to buy one as a spare. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/13 21:53
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_________________
Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Correction, turns out the trans is in fact remanufactured by ZF themselves in 1994. Looks brand new though. Wouldn't surprise me if all the remaining ones are this way. I imagine the supply of new transmissions was used up long ago.
If someone like ZF is gonna do a limited run of 60,000 transmissions, I presume they'd only have a few thousand surplus for factory replacement, right? |
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Posted on: 2008/2/14 1:50
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| Jeffvette | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Quote:
Correction, turns out the trans is in fact remanufactured by ZF themselves in 1994. Looks brand new though. Wouldn't surprise me if all the remaining ones are this way. I imagine the supply of new transmissions was used up long ago. Kevin, if it was a ZF rebuild, it would have a silver sticker plate noting "Remanufactured for General Motors". I will say the two that I bought back during the tranny dump, both had the sticker that and were brand new. There was not a single mark on the mounting flanges to show it had been used. The story behind them was ZF was warehousing them, and GM did not want them in inventory, so GM blew them out at 995 per trans for either LT5 or LT1. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/14 2:44
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| Jer | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Quote:
You know the best way to repair a ZF is to install a TKO600? :tongue: |
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Posted on: 2008/2/14 6:11
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| LD85 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Master Guru
 
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Quote:
Quote:  Once my ZF comes out damaged, it will never go back in |
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Posted on: 2008/2/15 0:57
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| MK 82 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Senior Guru
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Quote:
Correction, turns out the trans is in fact remanufactured by ZF themselves in 1994. Looks brand new though. Wouldn't surprise me if all the remaining ones are this way. I imagine the supply of new transmissions was used up long ago. Did they tell you up front that it was a reman? |
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Posted on: 2008/2/15 2:19
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96 CE Roadster LT4 |
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| CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Senior Guru
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No, it was advertised as new. I contacted him, said I didn't care but he should change his ad in case anybody else does.
He said he then looked into it and it is infact new. And I think he may be right. I'll check it closer when I get a chance. The serial number is something like 50,000, and it was made in 94, so I'm not sure. It looks brand spankin new. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/16 1:52
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| MK 82 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
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Senior Guru
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Once my ZF comes out damaged, it will never go back in |
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Posted on: 2008/2/16 5:27
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96 CE Roadster LT4 |
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