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| Lichen | Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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A while back, a couple of you guys insinuated that a camber brace sucks for roadracing. I installed one with my stock suspension and didn't really notice much of a difference. I now have a coilover set-up with 30mm swaybar. Do I really need the camber-brace or should I just shitcan it? What are advantages/disadvantages?
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Posted on: 2008/6/16 20:19
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| NC Kid | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Posted on: 2008/6/16 21:07
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Gets you an extra 20 lb of front downforce...
 I sold mine. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/16 21:40
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| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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With abit of engineering you can make a better design anyway, and save alot of weight at the same time. Id sooner use chromemoly for a job like that instead of RHS.
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Posted on: 2008/6/16 22:37
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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I have been the biggest naysayer when it comes to that thing. However, I never said it sucked, only that I see no advantage (based on actual racing experience) that it will meet all of the claims seen on the internet.
I simply asked if anyone did, was willing to do, or would offer me the product so I could do, some back to back comparison testing on a track. Obviously my inquiry / challenge was met with the sound of crickets - and about 20 posts from idiots who assured me that thier car "felt" better. On the street. Neat-O, guys, how were your laptimes? Crickets. C4's inherantly understeer. Stiffening up the front of the car (with no other mods) will simply increase this problem, not help it. But your car will feel better on the street. I wouldn't say it's bad to have one, but if it were me I'd try to get a few bucks for it before the window of opportunity closes. I promise not to tell potential buyers that it's junk. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/18 1:39
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| BrianCunningham | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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If you have coilovers, you might want to keep it to brace those shock mounts.
Actually a proper reenforcment should to straight to the shock towers. Full race cars run a full cage and then a loop around the whole engine bay, all triangulated, something you can't do w/o gutting the hood. Check out these pics of Pirate Racing's ZR1 http://www.zr1netregistry.com/ZR1_racingpictures.htm  |
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Posted on: 2008/6/18 13:42
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| Mekanic | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Thanks for saving me money Specator heh.
Now, as far as stiffness and body roll, would sway bars and the cross brace be a good idea? (cross brace noted for top out driving) |
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Posted on: 2008/6/18 13:48
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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I hated the way the car felt (back when I street drove it) with the top off, so I never took it off. I would agree that something in it's place to prevent that horrible C4 flex would be a useful product. So I have no beef with the cross brace. As for other mods like sway bars, I have to answer your question with a question: why do you want to change anything? Sway bars will limit roll, but not necessarily improve handling. I have beefy ones, but I think that I need to try some stock ones to allow a little more roll on the track. If you're looking for some stability and securer "feel" on the street, my suggestion is some stiffer shocks. Cheap and very noticeable. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/18 16:53
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Check out these pics of Pirate Racing's ZR1 That Pirate car is what got me into the Speed world challenge racing, back when Bill Cooper was tearing it up. Then he quit, Scotty quit (although I never really liked him) and I started rooting for LG. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/18 16:56
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Well crap, I woulda sent you mine for free just to see your results. I already sold it though. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/18 20:20
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| BillH | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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I agree that it won't meet the claims. And I don't think that 99% of drivers could feel a difference. I do think though that if you're going full race with the car, anything you do to stiffen the chassis is a good thing. You want the suspension to move, not the chassis. That way, your alignments and camber curves will be predictable. That's why the tube frame cars have a large tube going across the chassis close to the upper coilover mounts. If adding the brace to a fairly stock C4 would increase understeer then the the frame is flexing without one and keeping the contact patch closer to correct, which is ass backwards. I also would like to see one tested, on a stocker woth decent shocks. I would bet most would see no difference at all. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/19 14:06
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| BrianCunningham | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Due to the NHRA regulations, I'll be looking at least at a 6pt cage.
I'd be willing to go to an 8pt if I can keep it conforming to the car. Though seeing bar to the a-pillar with the top off would be different. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/19 15:24
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| Lichen | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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It won't be a full race car, and I'm one of the 99% who didn't feel any difference. The main reason that I would like to pull it out is for the space that it occupies. Maybe I'll just leave it in until I need to change the serpentine belt.
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Posted on: 2008/6/19 16:18
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| ghoffman | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Brian, do you have a frame solid model that we could see if it works or not? The person that designed it is not an engineer, (by his own admission) so perhaps we could determine if it is effective or not.
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Posted on: 2008/6/20 12:28
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| BrianCunningham | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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This is what I came up with.
It still needs some tweeks [IMG]http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff87/swiftwood/Corvette/CAD%20files/C4_frame.jpg[/IMG] |
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Posted on: 2008/6/20 13:24
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| Mekanic | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Registered Vendor
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Quote:
I'm noticing a bit more roll than I would like to see out of my vette. Shocks are all still good as far as I can tell, rear control rod bushings are not good tho. Shocks would probably be a good idea, would you recommend a Z51 spec for the street? Or a QA1? |
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Posted on: 2008/6/20 20:50
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~Rich Polo LT4 Yea tho I walk through the valley in the shadow of rice, I shall fear no turbo, for torque art with me. |
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| ghoffman | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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I would recommend anything other than a QA1 after seeing the dyno plots on them, unless you are drag racing.
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Posted on: 2008/6/20 22:38
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| bogus | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Spectator - you want one? I have one.
I will let you use it to compare with. I am curious. I took mine off when I was doing Opti work and never put it back... makes belt repairs a BITCH. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/21 0:59
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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I was able to tilt mine forward enough to have room for a breaker bar on the belt tensioner. But then I removed it for weight savings.
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Posted on: 2008/6/23 8:31
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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How hard is it to install and remove? If it's only a 10 minute job then I'm happy to test it. If it's an hour or more then It's probably not worth it, obviously it needs to be installable at the track to do a back to back comparison on the same day, tires, temps, etc. I'm happy to do this test, to answer the question once and for all. Although as we discussed earlier, I won't be changing the set-up of the rest of the car so it may not be comprehensive. If it actually does improve my car's performance I will be happy to get on the internet and tell everyone to buy one...but I'm not optimistic that it will. I'll split the shipping with you, and be sure to throw in a guru sticker...I'll get off my ass and measure how big the sticker needs to be. In fact, even if we don't to the CB thing I need the sticker before July 12, there's a big race and the TCC guys (touring challenge for Corvettes) are running with us in NASA ST2. In other words, there will be lots of Corvette guys to reach. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/24 13:49
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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It'll probably take an hour to install.
You have to get the front suspension in the air to remove the front upper control arm bolts, pull your shims out, loosen your a/c accumulator, fish the s.o.b. in there, pray that your p.s. pulley gives you enough room to get the left bolt back in without grinding, then go on about your business. It could also potentially change your camber a tiny bit after install. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/24 16:03
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| pianoguy | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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I bought one of those serpentine belt tools and have bent it strategically to allow it to clear the AC lines. If I remember which way to put the crow's foot head on it, I can successfully get the belt on/off. A PITA, for sure. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/24 17:12
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1996 LT4 �Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.�- Jack Handey |
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Hmmm...I don't have a/c so that's no problem, but the rest may be. If it may change my camber then the comparison may not be valid.
I can still do this, I do enough track days at the same tracks that the comparison would eventually get done. However, I'm not about to put this thing on for a real race, just DE's and such. While conditions will vary on two different days, that'll probably be the best I can do. I guess we're looking for a big change, a small change (or slower times) makes the part irrelevant, right? |
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Posted on: 2008/6/24 19:34
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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How big is a small change? 1/10th is big to me.
It seems only huge changes would be noticeable if you don't do the comparison on the same day or at least the same weekend. And you'd have to use it on a track where you don't have a learning curve that's affecting times. Or just install it, then after a few runs bust out your sawzall and cut a gap in the middle. Or have something bolted in there before hand you can remove easily. Sounds like too much hassle, but anything else is just going to make you another opinionated butt-o-meter. I hope you don't have a larger power steering pulley, the stock one on mine almost made it impossible to install. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/24 20:36
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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There are at least 3 tracks when I can run lap after lap within 0.5 seconds of each other (excluding traffic, of course). Lap times don't vary too much from weekend to weekend as long as it's dry and sunny, and there are enough people that I run with to who's times I could compare. For example, a few weeks ago at Grattan everyone was running about a second slower than usual, so if I were, too, it would be quantifiable. However, as discussed, a small variant would be tough to relate to one specific peice of equipment. I like the idea of cutting it out, but at least half of the weight would still be there. Again, we're only talking 10 lbs, but it's in the front of the car. I'm thinking I just "prep" the car and carry the brace around with me in the trailer. If I get a weekend where I'm not already repairing something Saturday night for Sunday's drive I can install it while drinking beers and bench racing. I'd love to be proven wrong on this...although I'd have to go back and delete a lot of posts. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/25 18:00
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| ghoffman | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Well, in addition to lap times, there is the intangible "feel". Just like when you take the roof off of a C4 you can feel it, you may or may not feel something.
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Posted on: 2008/6/25 18:17
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| Aardwolf | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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I've read people saying they like these for street use because the steering wheel isn't as jerky on a bump. And cowl shake is lessened. I don't notice either of these things on my car.
I'd be very curious about track testing results! Please do this. There's no way I'll add twenty pounds to my car without clear gains. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/25 18:44
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Yeah but that wasn't the point of this thread. Anyone who spends $200 and 1 hour modifying their car is going to "feel" intangibly better. Same as everyone insisting the engine "feels" smoother after an oil change. Which is b.s. unless they filled the engine with sand on the previous change or something. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/25 19:28
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| tobijohn | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Is it possible that the install would be harder on the L98 C4? On my previous LT1, it didn't seem that difficult although around an hour is about right. It was a straight bolt-in, in my case. Incidently, I've got a scanned copy of the install instructions and if shipping from FL is cheaper than from CA, I've got a spare one that can be used for test purposes as well... |
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Posted on: 2008/6/25 23:25
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| bogus | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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I did notice a little less cowl skuttle and generally tighter response on the street. I never tracked it.
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Posted on: 2008/6/25 23:34
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| pianoguy | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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It was like night and day for me with the top out - my steering wheel used to shake like mad before I installed the camber brace. I also felt like there was less disturbance going around bumpy corners with the top in. This spring I also installed the Cross-Frame, and really didn't notice much of a difference. I don't track mine, though. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/26 0:09
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1996 LT4 �Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.�- Jack Handey |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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It would surprise me that the camberbrace could do much of anything to prevent frame twisting. It's mostly a pinned joint connecting the control arm towers. So maintaining camber should be all it's capable of.
Yesterday I had my car parked with one wheel on a curb (rounded curbs here) and I set the roof on. It would not drop into place until the car was on flat ground and untwisted. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/26 0:28
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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I'm still game for this, it's an LT1 but I have the bigger Meziere electric pump. I did some research on Pinnacle's site and there appears to be a different brace for that. The good news is that it has a bolt in bar in the middle to clear the pump, so I could "disable" it without destroying it. The weight would still be there but I don't think that would really make enough of a difference to matter.
I could install it at home and simply bolt in the middle section for the test. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/26 2:32
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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My car currently feels awesome. Several years of tweaks got it there. I do wonder if this thing might help with turn in response. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/26 2:36
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Except that one would require you paying for it! |
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Posted on: 2008/6/26 4:10
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| pianoguy | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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That's the one thing the cross-frame may have helped - last time I jacked up a back wheel (from the marked jack location), the front wheel on that side also came up off the ground. I don't remember that happening before installing the cross-frame, but I could be wrong. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/26 12:42
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1996 LT4 �Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.�- Jack Handey |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Mine will do that as is. In fact, if I have it on blocks with one jackstand set a notch too high the whole car will teeter back and forth. It does creak though when I go up driveways at an angle though, so I know it's twisting. The cross brace seems like a good idea if you've got enough clearance for it. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/26 16:28
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| BrianCunningham | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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The crossbrace is their version of the convertible brace.
Chevy put them on the contertibles. As far as the camber-brace. I'll be back home soon, so maybe Gary and I can just physically measure the stiffness of my car with and w/o all these different devices. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/26 18:22
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Lots of folks over at the CF have done this test. It doesn't tell me much. The question isn't whether or not it will stiffen the car, that part seems obvious. It's whether or not it makes the car handle better, and the only way I know to measure that is on a skidpad (weak) or with some Auto-x or track lap times. BC if you have one, why don't you do some runs with and without? We're beating a dead horse again. I'll do the test if anyone has the electric WP version. I'll split shipping and return the part to it's owner after the test. Otherwise we're just pontificating for no reason. It's like some of the meetings I go to at work... |
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Posted on: 2008/6/27 15:03
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Sorry, but actually evaluating and testing the claims on aftermarket products is far beyond the norm.
Just buy it, believe everything they say and make a few more things up to post online, and then pat yourself on your back and tell your friends. |
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Posted on: 2008/6/27 16:30
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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I think I'm growing up, there was a post on the Cf this morning with someone praising this thing and I simply closed it and walked away...no reply, not comment whatsoever. Perhaps my big mouth is finally shutting |
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Posted on: 2008/6/27 17:47
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| klkordzi | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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So in keeping with the discussion about the value of braces, what value if any is there to the brace I've seen that mounts in place of the targa top?
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Posted on: 2008/7/14 0:56
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| pianoguy | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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I have an AFSB Targa Bar (R-D Racing also makes a similar device with square tubing). I like it a lot - the car is just as solid if not more so than with the fiberglass top. I don't track it, but I imagine the extra headroom would be welcome if you're wearing a helmet: http://bradprestonmusic.com/Photos/Ve ... g2008/images/dscn1085.jpg |
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Posted on: 2008/7/14 1:49
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1996 LT4 �Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.�- Jack Handey |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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I doubt anyone will dispute how much the car flexes with the top off. But the next question is, does it hurt performance and how much, or is it basically just a nuisance?
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Posted on: 2008/7/14 21:56
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| BrianCunningham | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Well that I DO have data on.
Same autocross, in the morning I ran with the roof ON. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGRPLnmBYQc In the afternoon I ran with the roof OFF http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrd1f4UX2Ow What do you think? |
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Posted on: 2008/7/15 0:37
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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I dunno. Come on man, give me the cliff notes. Watching Auto-X is almost as fun as going to the dentist.
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Posted on: 2008/7/15 5:41
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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| ghoffman | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Brian can tell you, what is immediately noticable is the stiffness added by the Hardbar harness bar. Even if you have no need for it from a racing standpoint, the stiffness added is like the difference between the top on or off.
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Posted on: 2008/7/15 12:43
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| BrianCunningham | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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This:
Quote:
plus this: Quote:
Equals: Lack of patience on your part. You claim to be an engineer, well then you need to be able to go through the data to get an informed decision. It's all fundemental testing that all race teams do, be it autox, road race, rally, or even drag. Sounds like you need to hang out in the pits more often. |
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Posted on: 2008/7/15 17:20
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| Jeffvette | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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Elite Guru
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Quote:
Sorry, the AuoX does suck. Don't even get me started on drag racing. All of two minutes on a long course and then you sit and wait for an hour for your next run. Track days, HPDE, and actually racing SCCA or NASA is where it's at. You spend more time preparing, but the amount of track time you get is greater. But the risk is also higher. |
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Posted on: 2008/7/15 19:58
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Camber-brace and Roadracing | ||
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The first comment you quoted was tongue in cheek. Or more accurately, the manufacturer's performance claims associated with many of the products in the catalogs are a joke.
I asked for cliff notes because I don't know what I'm supposed to glean from 20 minutes of video, with no driver feedback, no lap times, etc. I see the A-pillar moving in the topless vid, but with the top on vid, the camera is either aimed different, or its too dark to see the same point of reference. All I can tell is the camera or mount is wiggling in both vids. Is there any way to flip the camera mount behind your harness bar in order to get a wider angle view? |
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Posted on: 2008/7/15 19:59
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