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Automatic Transmission - 4 Speed

1st Gear: 3.06
2nd Gear: 1.62
3rd Gear: 1.00
4th Gear: 0.70

Reverse: 2.29

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BrianCunningham dry sumped C4
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Boston, MA for the most part :)
7763 Posts
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Thought you might find this interesting.

Most C4 owners have had to resort to mounting the pump up high, he's managed to put it down low.

[QUOTE]MarkBychowski,
Finally!
As some of you know I've been working on gradually building up a new engine over the past year or so. It's finally done and just got the computer tuned yesterday. Here are the details:

Engine specs:
Shortblock
LT1 / 4 small block
bore: 4.03"
Stroke 3.625"
6.0" rods
Static compression 10.96:1

Hydraulic roller cam, specs at .05" lift:
Intake duration 230, .622 valve lift
Exhaust duration 236, .624 valve lift
Lobe separation: 112.0
Installed 108.0 intake center line
Caddy racing lifters

Oil system:
Johnson's 4 stage dry sump pump (3 sunction stages all in the pan)
Hamburgers 3 stage dry sump pan with extra scavenge fitting/tube added
custom oil tank
Canton oil thermostat and earls cooler

Intake:
Ported LT4
42lb injectors
58mm throttlebody

Heads:
AFR 210cc LT4 competition ported

Other:
Trans: ZF6
Clutch: Carolina stage 3
Exotic Muscle headers
Corsa exhaust with Carsound 3" Cats
Delteq ignition
Meziere Electric water pump
180* Thermostat

The motor was built for a combination of street and road racing (HPDEs). Shortblock built and cam selection by Midwest engine tech in Mokena, IL. top-end, dry sump, etc was done by me.

My HP goals were ~500HP at the crank (~425 RWHP). Overall I'm very pleased with the result, particularly given the 'unknowns' of the AFR Eliminator heads and the practicality of fitting a dry sump system into a street C4 while retaining all accessories (AC, cruise, traction control, etc). That being said, getting it all in there was a massive pain in the butt. Among many other things I had to fab up new solid motor mounts which move the motor 1/4" back to clear the drive mandrel and also clear the oil fittings on the passenger side. No frame or structural mods were made, though.

Here are the results:

RWHP Dyno graph:
[IMG]http://home.comcast.net/~markbychowski/Photos/Final dyno.JPG[/IMG]
Engine during assembly showing location of dry sump pump and drive mandrel (you can also see the tank pre-installation in the lower left:
[IMG]http://home.comcast.net/~markbychowski/Photos/engine assembly.JPG[/IMG]
Oil tank installed in factory battery location (battery is in the rear storage compartment):
[IMG]http://home.comcast.net/~markbychowski/Photos/Oil Tank.JPG[/IMG]
Engine from driver's side:
[IMG]http://home.comcast.net/~markbychowski/Photos/Engine Driver side.JPG[/IMG]
Engine from passenger side:
[IMG]http://home.comcast.net/~markbychowski/Photos/engine pass side.JPG[/IMG]
Dry sump tank breather can and oil pump (it's down there somewhere):
[IMG]http://home.comcast.net/~markbychowski/Photos/oil pump.JPG[/IMG]


Link to earlier thread with AFR head pics and flow numbers: [url]http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1775117[/url]

Link to earlier thread with Engine dyno numbers: [url]http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1990466[/url][/QUOTE]
Posted on: 2008/7/2 16:39
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/
383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes
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Matatk Re: dry sumped C4
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What is the benefit of a dry sump oil pump?

Matthew
Posted on: 2008/7/2 18:42
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CentralCoaster Re: dry sumped C4
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San Diego, CA
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No oil starvation under high G's?

Less windage losses on the crank?

Less oil breakdown from the crank?
Posted on: 2008/7/2 19:43
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1985 Z51, ZF6
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BrianCunningham Re: dry sumped C4
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Boston, MA for the most part :)
7763 Posts
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Yes, yes & yes

You actually make power with a dry sump, since you're not pumping all that air+oil around, but the real reason you do it is to not loose the engine under high G loads.
Posted on: 2008/7/2 23:11
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383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes
NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com
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BillH Re: dry sumped C4
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Nice setup. I'm gonna have to do a search for the Hamburger oil pan and take a look at it.
I wonder if he put in crank scrapers too.

I just finished repairing a dry sump pan that a rod went thru, soft ball size hole.

The dry sump pan on my 4 cyl. holds less than 1/2 quart.
Posted on: 2008/7/3 13:35
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bogus Re: dry sumped C4
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San Pedro, CA
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I love the concept of dry sump. Always have. Just have to take extra care with the lines. But if they are protected, no worries.

I love the extra volume. The remote nature of everything keeps the oil cooler, too. It's all good. Add in the other bennies that Brian has alluded too, the concept drifts ever faster towards no-brainer.
Posted on: 2008/7/3 14:36
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ghoffman Re: dry sumped C4
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258 Posts
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Very nice setup Mark! I have 2 cars with dry sump systems, and I wish all had it. It makes more power for at least 2 reasons, one is you are not making an oil Margarita with the crank, and the other is the crankcase vacuum helps ring seating. On my race motor, it was worth 18 HP between having the crankcase vented and having it closed and pulling a vacuum. Also, having oil pressure under acceleration, braking and cornering is a good thing too!
Posted on: 2008/7/4 14:06
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MarkB Re: dry sumped C4
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2008/7/16 16:41



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Hi guys, I didn't even realize this was posted over here. Thanks for the comments!

For me, the dry sump wasn't required, but it's nice for piece-of-mind. I have to admit, the biggest thing was to see if I could do it. It was a fun, albeit expensive and sometimes stressful addition to the engine project

Bill, you can actually find the Hamburger's pans on e-bay. I got mine for $30. I welded in an additional scavenge fitting and pickup since the pan is only available with 2 from the factory. It's a very basic pan, no kickout. It does have a windage screen, though. I didn't put in a crank scraper. After talking with Roy Johnson (who built the pump) and my engine builder, they said it wasn't worth it at my power and RPM level.

The next time I go to the dyno I want to see if it makes much of a difference without vacuum in the crankcase. Right now it pulls a little over 12"hg at WOT, about 7" at idle.

The next project will be Gary's C4 coilover setup
Posted on: 2008/7/16 16:49
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BrianCunningham Re: dry sumped C4
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Boston, MA for the most part :)
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Mark,

WELCOME TO THE FORUM!
Posted on: 2008/7/16 19:20
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/
383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes
NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com
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BillH Re: dry sumped C4
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Yea, I'm not sure how much you get from a crankscraper but they certainly don't hurt. I have some patterns and build my own so it doesn't cost me anything but a little time.

It'll be interesting to see your dyno results.
Posted on: 2008/7/17 15:48
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BrianCunningham Re: dry sumped C4
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Mark,

Can you do me a big favor and get all the part #'s necessary to do this?

The more I think about it, I should really drysump my engine, given what I want to do with it.

BTW what changes were necesary on the engine for the drysump.
I assume you blocked off the OEM oil pump, but what about the drive?
Did you pull it and block off the passages?
or leave it in to maintain pressure?
Posted on: 2008/7/18 19:12
_________________
Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/
383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes
NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com
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ghoffman Re: dry sumped C4
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If I may ask a potentially sacrilegious question, why not just use an LS-7? It is already dry (well, perhaps damp) sumped, has similar or more HP and torque and probably weighs less (about 435 pounds). The price is about $12k new in the crate, or get one from a wreck, which alot of C6Z's get into because some people have more money than driving skills.
Posted on: 2008/7/19 12:43
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MarkB Re: dry sumped C4
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6 Posts
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2008/7/16 16:41



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Heresy Gary!

Seriously a very legit question. The LS7 is obviously a great motor and would have made for a fun project. I did seriously consider going that route, but went this way because:
1) I liked the idea of doing the whole thing from scratch so I could pick all the components I wanted. The project was just as much about seeing how well I could come up with a package (going through the process) as it was about results. It's definitely not completely logical -- just something I always wanted to do.
2) Growing up with the old small block chevy I always had a place in my heart for them. That's one of the reasons I have a C4 instead of a newer LSX car. Again, not logical but personal preference.
Posted on: 2008/7/19 16:10
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MarkB Re: dry sumped C4
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Hi Brian, I also posted this on the other forum in reply to your question about details:

I'd be happy to provide all of the details. First a warning: the Dry sump literally more than doubled the overall work on the engine project due to fabrication and general pain-in-the-butt factor. Also added about $2700 to the cost and that's with me doing all of the fabrication work with basically free welding work from my brother and a buddy (welding alone on the tank would have been another few hundred). That was also buying as much as possible on e-bay, although I ended up rebuilding the pump so it was only a few hundred less than new.

Also, with your supercharger, I really doubt it will all fit, but it's possible.

Pump:
Johnson's HTP 4-stage (3 suction, with 0.8" pressure section). If you ever want a good conversation around dry sump technology and how to set up a system, give Roy a call. The pumps are far from cheap, but much better than the regular stuff like weaver, barnes, etc. www.johnsonsoilpumps.com

Pump mount:
Custom. Required approximately 5"x6" piece of 1/2" aluminum plus 2"x6" piece of 7/8" aluminum to make it. I have a 'spare' bracket that I made so I could give you dimensions. Of course, due to clearance, the bracket will ONLY work with the Johnson's pump.

You MUST have a Delteq or LTCC ignition setup since the pump goes where the plug wires come out on the passenger's side

Pump Drive:
I actually got the mandrel off of e-bay. None of the mandrels I found will work with the stock LT1 damper. I already had an ATI damper. The drive mandrel press-fits inside the ATI hub. For pulleys, standard 1" ID HTD 19 tooth for the drive mandrel, 35 tooth 5/8" ID for the pump. (drive ratio of 54% which is what Roy recommended for use with 0-30 oil)

Motor mounts:
Due to lack of clearance with the steering rack as well as scavenge lines on the passenger side, I had to fab up solid motor mounts that move the motor back 1/4". It really needs more, but that's as far back as you can really go without screwing other stuff up. I have dimensions for the mounts -- pretty straightforward to fab.

Oil Tank:
Completely custom, but I did use the top off of a coleman tank. In hindsight I wouldn't go that route again -- would have just fabbed it completely. I was worried about having a round top for proper oil de-airation, but you could accomplish the same thing with a square tank and round internal baffels. This one is an off-line conversation.

Oil Pan:
Hamburgers standard post-'86 (one piece rear seal) pan. It only comes with two pickups so I bought an extra weld-in bung and some tube to fabricate an extra one (more welding). If you went with a 3-stage instead of 4, it will save you a bunch of work and money (cheaper pump, fewer lines), but you won't get any (or much) crankcase vacuum. Again, in hindsight my 4-stage is probably overkill, but it's cool

Wet sump pump block-off:
I used a standard rear billit main cap, but had the machine shop install a plug in it for use with the dry-sump. That way I always have the option to switch back to wet sump if I want. Also, you must retain the oil pump drive (that bolts down in the rear of the valley) since it's necessary for proper lifter oiling, but I just removed the drive gear from it since it's not used (just a press pin holds the gear on).

Bottom-end build:
Rings are really the only consideration. If you're going with a pump that will make vacuum just let your builder know since he may want to put in looser rings. Not really necessary, though. Also, Roy Johnson really pushes 0-30 Amsoil for use with his pumps. That's a factor when determining bearing clearances so discuss with your builder. Otherwise you can just run the pump a little slower with heavier oil.

External oil filter:
I bought an external mount fora fram HP6 (huge honkin' filter). Again, overkill. Takes up a lot of space, but never have to worry about the filter. I mounted it down by the power steering cooler (only place it would fit).

Breather:
Peterson dry sump breather. DON'T use the little can with a K&N filter on top -- it will blow it right off at WOT (according to Roy).

Lines:
There's 23 feet of -12 braided line on mine (includes the oil cooer and oil thermosta which added about 12 feet total. Also about 5 feet of -16 from the pump to the tank. I also put peterson in-line scavenge screens between the pan and pump. If I recall correctly, there are a total of 21 AN fittings (including the 6 required for the thermostat and cooler). Most of mine are summit, but a few of them are aeroquip since summit doesn't make 180s.

Headers:
I have EM's like you. With the peterson in-line screens, there is VERY little clearance between the #4 pipe and the scavenge lines.

PS resevoir mont:
Since the pump mounts to the factory PS tank mount holes in the block, I fabbed up a simple aluminum mount for the tank and ran a normal rubber line from the tank to the pump.

That pretty much covers it. The only other thing I would have changed so far is the power steering rack mounts. I installed poly mounts on it, but the drive mandrel is VERY close. So close that I literally have to jack the motor up 1/2" just to get clearance to change a belt. If you've ever watched the steering rack while someone moves the wheel, you know that it moves around more than you would expect. In hindsight I would have made solid mounts for it (still may do).

Again, I can't stress enough how much of a pain in the a$$ it was (but worth it in the end). Also, maintenance will be more of a pain due to loss of clearance in many areas. I have a boat-load of pics and more details. If you'd like, PM me and I'll shoot you my number for a chat.
Posted on: 2008/7/19 16:12
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BrianCunningham Re: dry sumped C4
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Boston, MA for the most part :)
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Thanks again Mark.

BTW I'm with you the LT4 is the last Horray for the old smallblock. It actually put out as much power as the 97 LS1's.

I'm thinking with a custom bracket and 90degree boot wires I can keep my recently purchase MSD opti.

I'm also looking at your pictures and wondering with the battery moved if I can rotate the computer 90 degrees and have a more vertical oil tank. I can fab a composite one to fit the space.

Here's the drive I bought for the supercharger.
[IMG]http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff87/swiftwood/BayStateCorvetteClub/members/Brian%20Cunningham/blower%20build/Picture002.jpg[/IMG]

What I could do is drive the oil pump and then run a separate belt up to the blower. This would keep the regular belts on a separate system.
Posted on: 2008/7/20 0:47
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/
383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes
NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com
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