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wesmigletz Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Land of Fruits and Nuts
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Well, it's done. Finally got around to putting my stroked 327 on an engine dyno.

The combo:
My car's original, numbers-matching 1962 327/300 HP block and heads
Bore is 4.040"
The heads have been cut for 2.02/1.6" valves
Some minor port work
3.85" stroke crank, internally balanced
6.00" Manley SJ Rods
22 CC Forged, Ross Dished pistons
Off the shelf Comp 282 Retro-fit HR Cam, ground on a 112* LS
Morel Retro fit HR Lifters
Comp Gold 1.6 ratio roller rockers
Weiand Team G intake, opened up to a 1206 gasket
750 CFM Carb
1 3/4" X 3" dyno headers, 18" X 3" collector extension

The engine was base-lined with the above combo, fuel and timing curves were optimized for max power. All tests were done on the same SF-902 dyno, on the same day, with the same correction factors. Each combo was optimized for both timing and fuel curves.

The cam was picked by me, based on how I drive the car. The intake, while not ideal for a street car, offered the best potential, given the constraints of my vehicle's hood clearance. I would have rather ran a RPM air gap, or a Weiand Air Strike, but the bottom line is that they will not fit under the hood of my car. I have ran this engine at the track with a Weiand #8120 low-rise dual plane, and the Team G, in back to back weeks. Despite being handicapped with a 5000 RPM shift point, the Team G was worth 2/100ths and nearly .5 MPH vs the 8120. The 8120 was no slouch, and produced a 12.79 et at Famoso.

First we tested a set of 200 CC Dart Pro 1 Platinum Heads. We then tested a set of 195 CC Eliminator heads.

What are your predictions for:

1. What was my return for the $1400 investment to swap to the aluminum 200 CC Dart Pro 1 Platinum heads? How did the wet-flow heads fare vs my 46 year old power-sapping Camel hump heads?

2. With no other change, than swapping to the 195 CC AFR street heads, what was the net effect on power? Did the AFR heads deliver?

I no longer have mere opinions or speculations, I have dyno results. I helped swap the parts and dialed in the carbs.

Fire away...
Posted on: 2008/12/23 19:07
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Matatk Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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I have absolutely no prediction but I'll be watching. Hopefully we can accept this as a good comparison and not turn it into a pissing match.

Matthew
Posted on: 2008/12/23 19:12
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jsup Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Since the AFR heads were fully CNC'd I'd predict that it's at least 35 HP since that seems to be what the industry is seeing.

I asked in your original thread, the one where Ron was all giddy, if you planned a head swap. You said no. Why?

It is my opinion that the first 35-40 hp can be chalked up to the CNC porting. Why not have the Darts ported for a fair comparison? Serious, how is this fair given one is CNC ported and one is as cast?

Plus, you changed the cam. So before we get all excited about a gain, how much do you attribute to the cam.

Hell, there could be 75HP gain here.

And this was done in conjunction with a manufacturer, wasn't it? Your second statement is false, there was a cam change. Unless I misunderstood where you say "I picked the cam".

Questions:

1. Did AFR offer to do this test BEFORE or AFTER they knew your engine's specs?

2. Did they financially contribute to it?
Posted on: 2008/12/23 19:14
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wesmigletz Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Matthew,

I doubt this will be the end all be all, but they are valid results based on my combo and my testing. I was one of the guys spinning wrenches, and beyond wanting to see max power for my engine, without having a rod ventilate the block, I did not have a stake in it.

I put forth a hell of a lot of my time and $$$ to make this test happen. I also went to great lengths to eliminate variables as much as possible. The dyno operator did not have a stake in the test as well. He was neutral like the Swiss.

However, I must disclose the camel hump heads had 62 CC chambers, where as the Darts and AFR heads had 65 cc chambers. This was the result of my recollection of the camel hump chamber size being wrong. C'est la guerre.
Posted on: 2008/12/23 19:21
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cuisinartvette Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Excuses have already started and results havent been posted yet. lol.What if the Darts were strongest?
Whatever they are CNC/as cast whoopie, either one can be mfr'd to be good. Sounds like "out of the box" vs "out of the box"?

Lets hear it regardless.

Wes, good on you for taking the time, spending money and having the nuts risking your # matching block to do all this. Takes nuts but at least you stepped up.
Posted on: 2008/12/23 19:32
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jsup Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Quote:

cuisinartvette wrote:
Excuses have already started and results havent been posted yet. lol. Whatever they are CNC/as cast whoopie, either one can be mfr'd to be good. Sounds like "out of the box" vs "out of the box"?

Lets hear it regardless.


Yeah, OK...excuses.. Let's now compare the AFRs to the All Pros or Brodix X-11s "out of the box" how about that.

The cheerleading and leghumping is starting and the results aren't even posted yet.

IMO another unfair comparison proving nothing. The porting proves it. You're now saying porting is worthless? Then why does AFR port them. Make up your mind.

This result, based on Ron's state of mind, will show that on this specific combination AFR made more power with a fully ported CNC'd head. I am sure there are other combinations where the results would have been reversed. Can I still say that? To extend this conclusion out to anything more than that is what defines leg humping.

For the sake of sanity, I said what I have to say. I don't think it's fair. I think for $500 the Darts could have been ported and comparable, and still the same price. I am conceding a power difference based on what I learned yesterday on CNC porting.

This thread will stay at the top for days supported by leghumpers. I'll be back when it falls off the charts.

Have a nice Christmas all.
Posted on: 2008/12/23 19:34
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wesmigletz Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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jsup,

The engine was first tested with the solid flat tappet regrind cam. Then it was tested with the HR cam. Then the Dart heads, with CNC Chambers, were swapped on. Then the AFR street heads, not the fully CNC heads, were swapped. The power effects of the HR cam had nothing to do with the difference in power the heads produced. All three heads were tested with the same HR cam, and FWIW, I ran a smaller cam than some of those involved thought I should have ran.

There were parts used from AFR, Dart, Morel, Competition Cams, Camonics, Johnson lifters, and Weiand.I suppose that I should disclose that I am friends with a Holley engineer. Does that make my Weiand intakes suspect as well? I do not have a personal relationship with anyone else involved with the test.

The dyno guy, the magazine guy, my son, and I were the only ones to touch the engine. All parts used were off the shelf, beyond the gasket matched intake, something I wanted, and the ported camel humps. There were no ringers.

EDIT: I will concede, however, I wore a certain car-related website's t-shirt to the test. I did not pay for the shirt. Well, it wasn't exactly free... it was kinda like at Sturgis, where the guys give chics the shirts if they try them on in front of them... When I went to get the shirt, I was like,"So, what do I owe you for the shirt?", the guru was like, "You can have it if you try it on here." So, aside from a little dignity, it didn't cost me nothing...
Posted on: 2008/12/23 19:48
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Jeffvette Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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I heard a rumor through the grapevine about this test.
Posted on: 2008/12/23 19:49
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Jeffvette Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Quote:

wesmigletz wrote:

So, aside from a little dignity, it didn't cost me nothing...


Feel dirty though don't you. You won't be able to wash that feeling off
Posted on: 2008/12/23 19:52
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Matatk Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Quote:

wesmigletz wrote:

When I went to get the shirt, I was like,"So, what do I owe you for the shirt?", the guru was like, "You can have it if you try it on here." So, aside from a little dignity, it didn't cost me nothing...


I get the feeling that isn't the first time you've shown your nips for a free t-shirt....

Matthew

PS - to keep this on topic, how 'bout dem results.
Posted on: 2008/12/23 21:10
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BrianCunningham Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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What happened to the Toyota V8 swap?
Posted on: 2008/12/24 0:22
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88BlackZ51 Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Quote:

jsup wrote:
Quote:

cuisinartvette wrote:
Excuses have already started and results havent been posted yet. lol. Whatever they are CNC/as cast whoopie, either one can be mfr'd to be good. Sounds like "out of the box" vs "out of the box"?

Lets hear it regardless.


Yeah, OK...excuses.. Let's now compare the AFRs to the All Pros or Brodix X-11s "out of the box" how about that.

The cheerleading and leghumping is starting and the results aren't even posted yet.

IMO another unfair comparison proving nothing. The porting proves it. You're now saying porting is worthless? Then why does AFR port them. Make up your mind.

This result, based on Ron's state of mind, will show that on this specific combination AFR made more power with a fully ported CNC'd head. I am sure there are other combinations where the results would have been reversed. Can I still say that? To extend this conclusion out to anything more than that is what defines leg humping.

For the sake of sanity, I said what I have to say. I don't think it's fair. I think for $500 the Darts could have been ported and comparable, and still the same price. I am conceding a power difference based on what I learned yesterday on CNC porting.

This thread will stay at the top for days supported by leghumpers. I'll be back when it falls off the charts.

Have a nice Christmas all.




This is as fair as it gets, and you are allready talking about porting the Darts? Jsup, the Darts and the AFR's are the same price. "Bang for the buck". That is exactly what the C4's owners want to see.

I am looking forward to the results Wes, but why not tell us the results?

Jsup, It sounds like you are back peddling and the results haven't even been published? Sounds like you have little confidence in your "wetflow" marketing? Have some confidence!


What is unfair about this comparison?


And you won't be back when it falls off the chart? You will be checking the thread frantickly.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 2:11
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wesmigletz Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Quote:

BrianCunningham wrote:
What happened to the Toyota V8 swap?


That kinda swap doesn't happen overnight. It is still under consideration...
Posted on: 2008/12/24 3:49
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PeteK Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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When will the top secret results be posted?
Posted on: 2008/12/24 3:55
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wesmigletz Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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[IMG]http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn283/Flowizard/MigletzDynotest.jpg[/IMG]

Green: Baseline with re-grind solid flat tappet cam and camel hump heads
Grey: Added HR Cam
Blue: Added 200 CC Dart Pro 1 Platinum Heads
Pink: Added AFR 195 CC Heads

As with the baseline, each new combo was tuned for optimal fuel and timing curves.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 4:00
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wesmigletz Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Quote:

PeteK wrote:
When will the top secret results be posted?


I would have been posted a few moments sooner, but I was distracted by your avatar...
Posted on: 2008/12/24 4:02
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PeteK Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Quote:

wesmigletz wrote:
[IMG]http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn283/Flowizard/MigletzDynotest.jpg[/IMG]

Green: Baseline with re-grind solid flat tappet cam and camel hump heads
Grey: Added HR Cam
Blue: Added 200 CC Dart Pro 1 Platinum Heads
Pink: Added AFR 195 CC Heads

As with the baseline, each new combo was tuned for optimal fuel and timing curves.


Posted on: 2008/12/24 4:04
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PeteK Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Quote:

wesmigletz wrote:
Quote:

PeteK wrote:
When will the top secret results be posted?


I would have been posted a few moments sooner, but I was distracted by your avatar...


It is not as good as Jeff's, but decent.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 4:09
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Jeffvette Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Quote:

wesmigletz wrote:


Green: Baseline with re-grind solid flat tappet cam and camel hump heads
Grey: Added HR Cam
Blue: Added 200 CC Dart Pro 1 Platinum Heads
Pink: Added AFR 195 CC Heads

As with the baseline, each new combo was tuned for optimal fuel and timing curves.



That's it. I don't see a difference.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 4:09
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88BlackZ51 Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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The Dart's almost got beat out by the 46 year old ported Camel hump heads. Kinda funny!


From the look's of it, the AFR's made 40-50 more hp then the Dart's, and 20-30 tq.

Thanks for the tests!
Posted on: 2008/12/24 4:19
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PeteK Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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I am impressed with the power that the camel hump heads a flat tappet cam made. Not bad at all. Any port work on the GM heads?
Posted on: 2008/12/24 4:20
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wesmigletz Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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PeteK, the camel hump heads have the competition port job done by Mike Stark at CFM Performance. He did a hell of a job on them. They actually out flowed a set of 180 Dart Pro 1 Platinum Heads that I had, on the same flow-bench all the other heads were tested on.

BTW, those 180 CC Darts actually came out at 191 CC.

My 180 CC heads have about 500 street miles on them. I'm going to be selling them and replacing them with a set of AFR heads. Anyone looking for some heads?

Quote:

PeteK wrote:
I am impressed with the power that the camel hump heads a flat tappet cam made. Not bad at all. Any port work on the GM heads?
Posted on: 2008/12/24 4:35
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PeteK Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Another thing that was suprising (to me) was how close all 4 combos were at approx 4,000 rpm.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 4:41
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wesmigletz Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Quote:

PeteK wrote:
Another thing that was suprising (to me) was how close all 4 combos were at approx 4,000 rpm.


That may have had something to do with the single plane intake, and FWIW, the combos all seemed to like similar timing and fuel curves.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 5:11
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cuisinartvette Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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...With Petes last comment.

4k rpm things really change, thats quite a leap.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 5:12
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Jeffvette Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Resized Image
Posted on: 2008/12/24 6:27
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cuisinartvette Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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WTF
Posted on: 2008/12/24 7:09
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pr0zac Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Quote:

88BlackZ51 wrote:
The Dart's almost got beat out by the 46 year old ported Camel hump heads. Kinda funny!


From the look's of it, the AFR's made 40-50 more hp then the camel humps, and 20-30 tq.

Thanks for the tests!
are you high? seriously. learn to count. *fixed*
Posted on: 2008/12/24 14:10
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wesmigletz Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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For clarity purposes, the following links are to each cyclinder head manufacturer's site. In a previous post, I incorrectly stated that the AFR heads were NOT fully CNC ported. The AFR heads were in fact CNC ported; they were the street version. The AFR heads were not the competition heads. I do not want my words to detract from what was tested. So, I linked-up the manufacturer's sites.

Link to the AFR Heads:
http://www.airflowresearch.com/195sbc_sh.php

Link to the 200 CC Dart Pro1 Platinum Heads:
http://www.dartheads.com/products/cyl ... -pro1-platinum-heads.html

If you scroll through this link, there are some build pics for the stroked 327, the solid flat tappet's cam card, pics of the ported camel humps, and a flow sheet provided by Mike Stark at CFM Performance.

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/12432617
Posted on: 2008/12/24 16:46
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PeteK Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Quote:

wesmigletz wrote:
PeteK, the camel hump heads have the competition port job done by Mike Stark at CFM Performance. He did a hell of a job on them. They actually out flowed a set of 180 Dart Pro 1 Platinum Heads that I had, on the same flow-bench all the other heads were tested on.

BTW, those 180 CC Darts actually came out at 191 CC.

My 180 CC heads have about 500 street miles on them. I'm going to be selling them and replacing them with a set of AFR heads. Anyone looking for some heads?

Quote:

PeteK wrote:
I am impressed with the power that the camel hump heads a flat tappet cam made. Not bad at all. Any port work on the GM heads?


Hat's off to Mike on the port job.
Just goes to show that aftermarket heads work well, but not worth tossing old factory castings in the trash.
A buddy of mine has been running them on a racecar for years (since 64 actually)
Posted on: 2008/12/24 16:52
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jsup Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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So basically what we learned here is what we already knew.

That a CNC ported head will give 40 more HP than an as cast head.

1. Tony told me that, and he was right. We all believe Tony right?
2. Brodix says the same thing here's some video proof:
http://www.corvette-guru.com/modules/ ... php?topic_id=6531&forum=1
3. This "test" (I use the term loosely) proves it.

Therefore, as I initially stated, not really a fair comparison, was it? Given the 40 HP delta for the porting, I think we can agree I've been dead on saying they all perform generally the same, all within a hand full of HP of each other given how each likes the combination, when the comparison is fair.

What I find puzzling is why Wes, who was saying he didn't want to drop $100 for a dyno run the other day, would buy Dart heads, sell them at a loss, then buy AFR heads, go through all the trouble of changing three sets of heads and gaskets, and pay for all those dyno runs. Why would Wes do that out of his own pocket? I really don't understand why "guy on the street" would go through the trouble. If for the goodness of your heart, thank you Wes, I wish the results were more earth shattering with all the money you laid out.

Well, the good news is we can all now accept that a CNC ported head of any make, since we have both Brodix and AFR to point to, is good for about 40 HP on a big CI motor.

I'd be interested to know where did you source the heads. Were the Darts off the shelf from a reseller? Were the AFRs or did they come from the factory for the test? Ringer set maybe?

Let me close with questioning the parameters of a test to validate it basis and bias, is fair and is not whining.

As to the resale, the reason is a lot like the resale for a Toyota vs. a Chevy. A Camry isn't a better car than a Malibu, but it resales better because of marketing and because there are far less of them and they are harder to come by. People will pay more because I can get Dart tomorrow and have to wait on AFR. I am not so sure why resale is an issue at all, how many change a set of heads a week, usually it's years. It's just not a realistic circumstance that matters. So can you please explain why you made such an issue out of resale other than to just point out a favorable point for AFR. Thanks.

What we still don't know what the Darts would do with some light porting. People swear they respond real well. That probably would have changed things a bit and been a bit more fair, not totally, but a bit.

Merry Christmas all.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 17:25
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CentralCoaster Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Here's what I'm seeing:

AFR Eliminator 195cc street heads (CNC'd)
490 hp @ 6000 rpm
480 tq @ 5000 rpm

Dart Pro 1 Platinum 200cc Heads

465 hp @ 5900 rpm
465 tq @ 4800 rpm

The power curves have the same shape, so I don't think anyone can argue the heads were mismatched to the application. Would be nice to see what difference the CNC work makes.

Nice that the heads made up for the low end losses of the larger cam.

Wes, you should clarify post 7 regarding the CNC work.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 17:32
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cuisinartvette Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Sounds like a test of 3 heads roughly the same size. Dont know what the irons are but still its neat to see something old school thrown in for comparison.
Stark did a great job on those, thats pretty decent.
Jsup AFR doesnt make any as cast, thats the way they come period, out of the box. No "porting"...thats the point.
How much are you goig to spend working over the Darts to get them to the same level and by that time how much bigger is the intake port going to be?
Posted on: 2008/12/24 17:40
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jsup Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Quote:

CentralCoaster wrote:
Here's what I'm seeing:

AFR Eliminator 195cc street heads (CNC'd)
490 hp @ 6000 rpm
480 tq @ 5000 rpm

Dart Pro 1 Platinum 200cc Heads

465 hp @ 5900 rpm
465 tq @ 4800 rpm

The power curves have the same shape, so I don't think anyone can argue the heads were mismatched to the application. Would be nice to see what difference the CNC work makes.

Nice that the heads made up for the low end losses of the larger cam.

Wes, you should clarify post 7 regarding the CNC work.


So....25 lousy HP at 5000-6000 RPMs even less under 5000, more like 10. I'd say the CNC work is good for all of that.

We should do a poll. How many people with our street driven cars ever spin up past 5000RPMs? Betcha not much.

We keep coming back to the same thing. For all practical matters, there wasn't really much of a difference. Period.

What's the difference how much bigger the port is going to be? If the port job provides more power who cares what the port size is. Another example of arguing from an AFR bias. Is the goal power or port size?
Posted on: 2008/12/24 17:43
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jsup Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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cuisinartvette wrote:
Sounds like a test of 3 heads roughly the same size. Dont know what the irons are but still its neat to see something old school thrown in for comparison.
Stark did a great job on those, thats pretty decent.
Jsup AFR doesnt make any as cast, thats the way they come period, out of the box. No "porting"...thats the point.
How much are you goig to spend working over the Darts to get them to the same level and by that time how much bigger is the intake port going to be?


Ok Ron, I'll play your game. Why is "out of box" so important other than just being a marketing slogan? Another example of arguing from an AFR bias.

Who cares. If I'm building a motor and I'm doing it for all out performance, I'll get the things ported. If I'm trying to do it cheap, I'll take out of box. A factory light port on my heads was $200. I paid $1400 WITH the factory clean up port and another $300 to have my MiniRam ported and gasket matched and some touch up on the heads.

WTF is the point? BFD. What's with the out of box orgasm?
Posted on: 2008/12/24 17:46
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CentralCoaster Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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jsup, if you don't like the test, do one yourself.

I for one, am not going to criticize and question Wes's integrity for going through with this.

It seems to me all the bias is coming from you.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 17:57
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pr0zac Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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jsup, there is no sense in talking.. its not even a gain worth mentioning. what you said was right. and its the same as the thread i made about which would be a better motor. same fucking results. maybe 20 hp. but the 20hp cost $1000's. let them buy whatever the fuck they think is best.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 18:11
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BrianCunningham Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Thanks for the post
Posted on: 2008/12/24 18:14
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BeachBum Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Wes, My congrats to you and thanks to you, the corvette community owes you one for not only taking the time, cost & effort to do this test, but also for sharing the results with us all. Where others talk about this stuff..... its refreshing to see a few "Doers" are still out there !

As a note, your results are similar to what I experienced on the track a few years back where I switched from ported Dart cylinder heads to AFR 190's and improved performance by 2-3 tenths, which is right in line with the power you saw, or thereabouts anyway.

As another side note, both of the above aftermarket cylinder heads cost a hair under $ 1500 fully assemblied and the Dart Pro-1 Platinums do receive CNC bowl blending.

Considering its a pretty darn fair test in my opinion.....I feel good about my past recommendations to other corvette owners.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 18:16
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cuisinartvette Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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40+hp from 4000-6500 is worth spending another 100 or so.
Most that spend money on a modded motor for sure will be running it up that high. I dont know why you accuse me of all the bias, I dont care what brand is stamped on them.
As you know I dont even own a set of those, never have.

Maybe Wes can explain why he did all this..Not to put words in his mouth but it cost him quite a bit, noone paid him.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 18:18
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pr0zac Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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ok so it was 40 hp from the ported stocker not from a 100 cheaper set of darts. why does everyone keep talking like they blew the darts out of the water?
Posted on: 2008/12/24 18:20
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BeachBum Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Dart lists their price on the above cylinder heads as $ 730.30 per cylinder head for a total of $ 1460.60 for the set assembled with steel retainers.

AFR with steel retainers and assembled are $ 1485.00 as per their website.

Difference in price is $ 24.40 (for another 25 or so HP, thats an incredible deal in my opinion !!)

You could probably find both for a little cheaper from a dealer/ebay or wherever, but not sure.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 18:24
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CentralCoaster Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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At 6500, the AFRs do have 40hp on the Darts. But based on the curve, I would be shifting earlier with the Darts.

I'm not sure what difference that would give you at the strip.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 18:28
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PeteK Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Quote:

jsup wrote:
Quote:

cuisinartvette wrote:
Sounds like a test of 3 heads roughly the same size. Dont know what the irons are but still its neat to see something old school thrown in for comparison.
Stark did a great job on those, thats pretty decent.
Jsup AFR doesnt make any as cast, thats the way they come period, out of the box. No "porting"...thats the point.
How much are you goig to spend working over the Darts to get them to the same level and by that time how much bigger is the intake port going to be?


Ok Ron, I'll play your game. Why is "out of box" so important other than just being a marketing slogan? Another example of arguing from an AFR bias.

Who cares. If I'm building a motor and I'm doing it for all out performance, I'll get the things ported. If I'm trying to do it cheap, I'll take out of box. A factory light port on my heads was $200. I paid $1400 WITH the factory clean up port and another $300 to have my MiniRam ported and gasket matched and some touch up on the heads.

WTF is the point? BFD. What's with the out of box orgasm?

The out of the box mentality has some advantages. I try to do as much as possible on my builds, without the help (or relying) of others.
All things being equal,I prefer an out of the box product, but realistically, there never seems to be one for my application. I always wind up changing something out.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 18:33
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pr0zac Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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CentralCoaster wrote:
At 6500, the AFRs do have 40hp on the Darts. But based on the curve, I would be shifting earlier with the Darts.

I'm not sure what difference that would give you at the strip.
yeah. that isn't a peak or under the curve number.. i could rev my engine to 8000 and it would be probably like a 100hp difference since its like 2000rpm past its peak. whats the point of being liek its 40 hp more when reved way out past its peak?
Posted on: 2008/12/24 18:41
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wesmigletz Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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jsup, I've had my 180 CC Dart Pro 1 Platinums since December last year. I bought them for my truck's 383. They were to replace a set of nicely ported #186 1970 Z/28 heads I was running. They sat in my garage for 11 months and finally made it on an engine for the first time last month. I would have bought AFR 180 CC heads at the time, but there was a wait of 12-14 weeks. Those heads were purchased long before this test was ever discussed in C4, and for what it's worth, I did not know Tony prior to this test.

With the AFR heads unavaialable, I looked at Edelbrock RPM and E-Tec 170 heads, as well as Patriot and TFS. Edelbrock is located nearby, has a good reputation locally, and a lot of guys run them. However, looking at the two Edelbrock and Dart heads side by side, the Dart heads were a cleaner casting. I was not impressed by the Patriot's I saw. I like the TFS head, but ultimately went with the Darts because, I've run Dart heads before, and my local speed shop had a pair, and offered to set them up for my HR cam. The Dart head purchase was not part of some nefarious scheme, as you suggest. As I told you in a previous thread, I am not a Dart hater.

Regarding the AFR 195 heads, I wanted a set for my stroked 327. Been wanting them for a while, actually. I stumbled onto the C4 thread after I did an AFR search. An open offer was made to the forum for a discount on a set of heads, and to have the dyno time paid for. Seeing how I was in the market for a set of AFR heads, the timing was right.

A lot of work was involved on my end, to baseline my car at the track, and get it dialed in. I also had to pull my engine for the tests. I will be re-installing the engine and going back to the track. A shet load of candy azz nut swingers were posting in that thread. After the smoke cleared, none of those limp sticks had the stones to step up to the plate and do what needed to be done.

Bottom line is some people sit around pulling data outta their azz, then proceed to chest thump on the internet. Others get off their azz and do something.

I formed my hypothesis, stepped up to the plate and tested it. It cost me a lot of time, a fair amount of jack, and I risked my numbers matching engine in the process. In return, I got solid data. And guess what, if the Darts would have made more power, they would be on my engine. It really is that simple.

BTW, Tony believed his heads were the best. He was willing to put his $$$ and his reputation where his mouth was, so to speak. He stepped up, not knowing how the chips would fall. That is a hell of a lot more than anyone else in this thread has done.

My results are what they are. Take them or leave them. I could give a shet. I live and play in the real world.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 18:42
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PeteK Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Thanks Wes, for contributing. Most don't contibute solid data, and yours is appreciated.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 19:06
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88BlackZ51 Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Quote:

pr0zac wrote:
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88BlackZ51 wrote:
The Dart's almost got beat out by the 46 year old ported Camel hump heads. Kinda funny!


From the look's of it, the AFR's made 40-50 more hp then the camel humps, and 20-30 tq.

Thanks for the tests!
are you high? seriously. learn to count. *fixed*



I have never done drugs, but thanks for asking.

It seems like you and Jsup take this cylinder head thing personal. It's obvious that the AFR's outgunned those Dart's, and the price of the heads are within a few dollars of each other. Deal with it!

Thanks Wes!
Posted on: 2008/12/24 19:13
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BeachBum Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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Actually, the power above the peak does matter if you're a racer. Based upon your converter, gearing and even how quick your transmission shifts, you determine your slapback rpm..... if thats 2000 rpm for example, you then figure out what 2000 rpm window you make the most average power in and then shift at the high end of that window.

In this tests case, the AFR's would be shifted several hundred rpm above the peak simply because it holds its power above the peak much better.... whereas the Darts would more than likely be shifted back down around the HP peak as previously mentioned due to its hard fall above the peak. I think the camelbacks would be shifted above the peak based upon how well it looks like its holding power, but hard to tell, looks like it got shut off a little early. But, its all about experimenting at the track.... which is the fun part !

Wes, I think you're going to like how your vette now runs at the track..... From your baseline, in my opinion, you're going to pick-up over a 1/2 second in et and over 5 mph... maybe even 6 or 7. If you have the right converter in it, I predict very deep 11 second ets.

Good Luck at the track !
Posted on: 2008/12/24 19:15
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88BlackZ51 Re: Engine Dyno Predictions:
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pr0zac wrote:
ok so it was 40 hp from the ported stocker not from a 100 cheaper set of darts. why does everyone keep talking like they blew the darts out of the water?


40-50 hp is alot on a simple cylinder head swap, and both heads are the same price. Dart's are the AFR's little brother.
Posted on: 2008/12/24 19:22
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