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| cuisinartvette | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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My question would be out of curiosity, below 4k they are close in # but how big a difference in driving characteristic is there as far as responsiveness, pedal feel etc.
Wes said in another thread how he thought his car felt more responsive after switching from the Camels to the Dart 180s although it, along with a change from flat tappet to HR only picked up .1 in the 1/4 mile. So that says power is very similar but was more pleasing to drive. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/24 19:25
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Yes you were bang on. It appears that the "wetflow technology" isn't cracked up to be what our friend thought it was. I guess he was bite by the Dart marketing bug. After looking at the data, I am even more excited to see how my little AFR's will perform. Spring can't come sooner. Wes. Do you have any more measured data on the heads? |
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Posted on: 2008/12/24 19:38
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| BrianCunningham | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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I really wish they would take a borescope and a high speed camera and take pics of the flows in the cylinder heads when the engine is running. Easy enough to due.
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Posted on: 2008/12/24 19:42
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| TonyMamo | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Guys,
Here is all the pertinent data I acquired for this round of testing (which took quite a bit of time to gather I might add), that the guys who like to pour over the numbers will really enjoy. A big thanks goes out to Wes for providing the ported camel hump and the Dart heads and for taking all the time he did to baseline his car, hand deliver the heads to AFR for all the testing, taking the day off for the dyno day, etc. etc......I could go on and on. After speaking with him briefly after posting about the "challenge" some of you may remember on the "other board", it was clearly apparent to me this was a perfect situation with the right guy involved. Yes...AFR did discount the cylinder heads as promised months ago and yes, AFR did in fact foot the bill for the dyno testing but besides that the chips fell where they fell and driving to the dyno last Friday, although confident our product would once again deliver, I would be lying if I didnt say I was a little nervous knowing even just "OK" results would likley not be received well. Based on the numbers posted below I was hoping to see some solid gains (we had strong low/midlift gains on the intake side and a much stronger, more efficient exhaust port) and in the end I was certainly very pleased with the results. (Which were in line with my better expectations and needless to say I had a much more relaxing ride home!). BTW, you guys just looking at peak numbers are fooling yourselves. Our cars arent electric motors that operate at one RPM....as Beach touched on, you have to take the average power over the best 1500-2000 RPM span avaialable. You would obviously shift the AFR headed combo higher to take advantage of its huge gains in power past peak (the signs of an efficient higher flowing head btw). While there was a 25 HP differnce in the peak numbers (still sizable all things considered), there is closer to a 40 HP gain in average power and that would equate to serious improvement in SOTP acceleration and track times. Given the same quarterermile stretch of road, the AFR headed combo would be 3-4 car lengths ahead....thats a serious loss or a serious win depending on your vantage point. We arent taking about the difference being a fender or two or even a single car length. DONT easily dismiss that type of power differential (which the haters would incline you to do) and the fact you spent the same money makes it all that much sweeter. Enjoy the numbers....I invested many hours to coalate all of this information. ---------------------------------------------------------- INTAKE DATA (@28" of water with radiused entry on all heads LIFT...Fuelie-180 Dart-200 Dart-195 AFR (street) .200....146…….124……….143…………154 .300……195…….184……….195…………216 .400……239…….225……….238…………256 .500……252…….251……….268…………282 .550……257…….258……….272…………281 ------------------------------------------------------------------- .600……260…….261……….271…………280 .650……262…….261……….271…………280 .700……264…….262……….271…………280 EXHAUST DATA (@28" w/1.75 exhaust tube) .200……123……123……….116…………127 .300……158……151……….151…………173 .400……183……177……….180…………210 .500……199……198……….200…………230 .600……208……213……….211…………236 .700……214 Notes: I “fenced” off the .600 and up numbers on the intake because none of it applied to this testing…..but kept it in mainly for Wes’s benefit to compare his other fuelie head data (all the heads were flat there anywhere)which honestly was quite a bit optimistic. These are very good numbers for a ported camel hump head and having the time to llok them over carefully it was obvious to me Mike Stark spent alot of time on them. Even more modern ported Bowtie heads would be looking good here and the best I have seen those go with extensive time and money invested is in the 270-280 range but you would have likey invested twice the cost of an AFR head to accomplish that and it would have happened at a larger runner volume making them less efficient which would be mostly noticable in part throttle operation and some WOT power differences as well. More very important data The Dart 180 intake port poured 191 cc’s!! (quite a bit bigger than advertised). The fuelie head coincidentally poured the same 191 cc’s (lots of hogging there!) The Dart 200 head poured 201 cc’s (much closer to advertised) The AFR 195 street head poured 194 cc’s. Exhaust port volume Fuelie 67cc’s 180 and 200 cc Dart 75 cc’s 195 AFR 70 cc’s ------------------------------------------------------------ Thats about it for now....I will add more to this conversation at some point later time permitting. BTW, we seriously under-advertise our 195 cc exhaust flow data (intake side is pretty close). We were suppose to change that in our 09' catalog and overlooked it so we likely will leave the website alone and address both on 2010. I mention this only because the flow is alot more than we advertise and I didnt want anyone crying foul on the numbers. Wes can vouch for the fact these heads were not touched up one bit and were CNC ported only as delivered from us and others who have tested our heads can vouch for the fact the exhaust numbers on that particular line of heads (the 195's) are very conservative. The flow more on my equipment without a pipe than we advertise. Long story why but customers usually arent upset when their heads flow better than we claim. Wes....thanks again for the opportunity and all the hardwork. I told you a project of this magnitude would require lots of planning (and it did) but hopefully be very rewarding when the smoke cleared. I could tell you really enjoyed yourself the day we spent testing and swapping parts. Post that pic of the dyno day if you have it! Happy Holidays guys Tony |
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Posted on: 2008/12/24 21:04
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| jsup | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Tony and Wes, thanks for all the hard work. I know it took a lot of time and effort and I appreciate the full disclosure of AFR footing the bill. That fact appears to have no effect on the outcome per your explanation. I don't understand the hesitance to say that out of the gate.
Three questions: What is the conclusion we are supposed to reach as a result of this? How much to you contribute the HP difference to the 2.05 valves and CNC porting? If the Dart heads were lightly ported, to compensate for the CNC porting on the AFR, how different do you think the results would be? Have a great Christmas, thanks again. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/24 21:52
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| jsup | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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not really. Don't go by list price, go by what you can really pay for them. Again, I paid $1400 with $200 of factory touch up in there. My suspicion is a couple hundred bucks in touch up porting, that 25 hp goes away. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/24 21:59
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| jsup | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Post 31 about sums it up pretty well. Being right has no place in the conversation. And note, the AFR heads were ringer heads too. By definition they came from the factory, specifically for the test, not off a reseller shelf. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/24 22:07
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| BeachBum | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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What do you mean not really ? Do you need me to link the pricelists of these manufacturers ? Its easy, go to their websites !! btw, I can get the heads a little cheaper than advertised too......so what ?? The point is, these two cylinder heads are the same price..... end of story. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/24 22:14
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| jsup | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Street price (the price I would pay) and list price (advertised price) is two different things. Ever pay sticker for a new car? |
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Posted on: 2008/12/24 22:16
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| Matatk | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Wes - thanks for the test and all your time. Someone who finally took action instead of just blowing smoke.
Because I'm such a nice guy, and those dart heads are just collecting dust now, I'll send you a crisp new $100 bill for your troubles to box them up and ship them out to me. I mean, I understand I'm doing you a favor by cleaning space out of your garage, but that's just the type of guy I am. I think of others. Get back to me  Matthew |
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Posted on: 2008/12/24 22:19
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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I paid $12xx for my AFR's street ports, and guess what they didnt need any porting. John can you believe that concept! It's been about a year now, and you have spent probably over 200-300 hrs at a minimum talking about the great cylinder head debut. Does it hurt that you have been wrong the entire time? The funny thing is that you are the one who has been the victim of marketing. Wetflow doesn't mean chit!! |
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Posted on: 2008/12/24 22:25
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| Matatk | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Yeah, don't let Andy lock this before Wes has a chance to take me up on my generous $100 offer. Matthew |
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Posted on: 2008/12/24 22:36
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| cuisinartvette | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Track times gotta see em with the new setup. I see low 12s, maybe even 11s with a higher shiftpoint and possibly a little more stall. In a street driven 62 thats awesome.
This test is gettin all over the web quick. http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14097 |
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Posted on: 2008/12/24 23:11
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| wesmigletz | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Tony, here's the pic. I cropped the other guy out of the pic, because I'm not sure if he wants it going around the internet (at least not yet). I have the full pic available, if I have his blessing to post it...
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Posted on: 2008/12/25 0:33
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| wesmigletz | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Matthew, thank you for the generous offer. However, the figure I'm looking for is somewhere North of there...
BTW Matthew, those 180 CC Darts were good for 446 foot pounds @ 2700 RPM at the wheels on my 383. All that torque can be yours if the price is right. Quote:
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Posted on: 2008/12/25 0:37
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| pr0zac | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Posted on: 2008/12/25 2:30
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| pr0zac | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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i would also like to add that i don't think that jsup ever said that the darts would even put out more hp then afr's just that it wouldn't be a night and day, write home about it difference, which as wes( who i tip my hat to for standing up and doing this test) has made obvious to us all. its not a huge difference which has been the point of all of this horseshit in the first place. and the funniest part is everyone pointing at jsup and saying haha your heads didn't out do afrs. well haha he never said it would dumbass. any tony wasn't right saying it would be at least a 40hp difference. at least not in this test.
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Posted on: 2008/12/25 2:36
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| TonyMamo | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Prozac...
What are you rambling about?....seriously Picture this....two Corvettes of the same weight with the same combo's spend $1500 on aftermarket heads looking to improve their performance (One buys Brand "A"....the other buys Brand "D") A month later they happen to meet on a lonely stretch of two lane blacktop so remote the radar guns call in sick. We all know what happens next.... In the end, one car walks the other car by approximately three car lengths at the end of a 1320 foot blast. Its not even a race... Which car would you rather be in? We are talking about sizable differences in performance here....dont even attempt to make it seem meaningless because it just looks worse for you...I will leave it at that. Also, the gains in power are VERY significant when you consider both of them are leading competitor's products with the same price tag attached. The fact ours are fully CNC ported with very efficient port designs and high quality lightweight valvetrain components makes the purchase that much more of a no brainer for the end user. Which is exactly the point I have been trying to make for the better part of 18 months (concerning the new Eliminator product at least). You want to invest more money in the other brands in an attempt to even the bar, have at it but bigger isnt necessarily better and once you start carving on a 200 cc port in an effort to improve it, low and behold its 210 - 220 cc's before you have seen any notable gains in airflow worth mentioning (and have invested significantly more money point as well). At that point I offer you the new AFR 210 or AFR 227 head....perhaps our higher flowing Comp version of either (seeing as you were dumping a bunch more money in the other castings the price point would likely be less even purchasing our Comp ported package). See where I am going here...so now an apples to apples comparo pits the ported head of your choice to one of our larger much higher flowing pieces (assuming a bigger head is still right for the combination but thats a different argument completely). Let me sum it up for you....cc for cc, the AFR heads deliver and are arguably the most efficient aftermarket 23' heads per their given size. Better yet they are mass produced, easily attainable, and reasonably affordable all things considered. Not to mention is backed by a 35 year old company that has stellar customer service and involves themselves heavily in these public forums to help out the end users. When I get a chance I am going to calculate optimal average power curves for the three combo's we tested and look at actual average power gains (not a single peak figure) which is what will determine performance results (trap speeds and ET reductions). BTW, Im curious if you ever get your new combination to the chassis dyno? -Tony |
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Posted on: 2008/12/25 3:39
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Tony, I plugged both combos into my simulator. I stuck them in a C4 with 3.73s.
I had to shift the AFR combo at 6900 to make the most of the power curve. Darts shifted at 6600rpm. Results: AFR 11.37 @ 123.5mph Dart 11.54 @ 121.3mph |
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Posted on: 2008/12/25 5:49
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| TonyMamo | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Yep...thats probably reasonably close (regarding net gains) but I have a 3500 lb. car going about 119 MPH trap speeds with the AFR heads (490 HP) and decent air quality (500-1000 feet above sea level). My sliderule needs either more power or less weight (about 3080 lbs raceweight) to get to that type of trap speed. Will that program actually accept the real world dyno numbers? Some will....that would make the results even more scientific. Problem is unless you go to the track fairly often and understand what it takes to knock off a few tenths in an already reasonably fast car, you can't really appreciate what sounds like a small gain or improvement to an internet keyboard racer. Once you've been there however its a different story. A 14 second car is much easier to knock down similar improvements as it requires less power to do so. Let me know if your program accepts the actual dyno info and I will find a way to get it to you. Cheers, Tony |
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Posted on: 2008/12/25 6:16
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| Matatk | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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I've seen some different numbers on the corvette curb weight stock, but it's around 3200-3250 lbs (at least for the 89). I'd actually have to dig out my owners manual to double check. Not too hard to lighten it up 100 lbs for racing. Matthew |
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Posted on: 2008/12/25 11:42
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| TonyMamo | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Don't forget that Im referring to raceweight....which includes a driver, helmet, fuel, etc. To get close to 3100 pounds would require the car be closer to 2900 with an average weight driver sitting in it....that would be a pretty light Corvette but not out of the question for someone that prepped and lightened it for track use. -Tony |
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Posted on: 2008/12/25 13:03
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| wesmigletz | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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My car weighs about 3300 lbs with me in it. Any weight savings from the aluminum heads will be offset by the weight I'm gaining at my mother's house. The car will be getting weighed in the near future, so we will know where that stands. Performance-wise, I will be very happy with anything in the 11.XX range, but I am expecting low 12s. The car may be nearing the traction limits of the 235/60/15 ET Streets, so it will likely take some work to get everything sorted out.
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Posted on: 2008/12/25 15:29
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| jsup | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Hey Wes, that's a great picture, great to see you getting your son involved. Merry Christmas. Have a good one. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/25 16:54
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| jsup | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Since we're imaging, I'm imagining that the guy with head "A" did all his research on the internet and the combo didn't work and got his ass kicked by the guy with head "D" who knew WTF he was doing and put together the right combination. We can all imagine, mine's pretty vivid. Tony, I concede that your 195s are nice heads with a good niche, but dammit you stick them on EVERYTHING. If the criteria is what you lay out, cause not everyone has a 2900 pound race car they are spinning to 6500 rpms on the regular basis. Then yeah, that's your niche'. I would be very careful however your saying there is no engine that won't make SIGNIFICANTLY more power on any combination out there. That's the type of outrageous claims that get me going. Give me a fully CNC'd track one, where are we at? Lastly. It was a 25 HP difference, and no one has yet deal with the question of how much of that is due to the CNC porting. Tony, this is not you: I find it quite entertaining that the same people who are telling us to spend $1200 on Carillo and Callies rods for a 500HP motor, because "money is no object you need the best" are now making making arguments that a Brodix X-10 or X-11 or having a Dart head cleaned up to get similar numbers is somehow "too expensive". Seems rather hypocritical to me. Why not All Pros at $5K. So over priced rods are ok but the theory doesn't apply to heads. Got it. Tony, we've been at this a long time. Are we done? Again, post 31 pretty much summed it up, you can redefine horsepower all you want from "under the curve this and that" but the world looks at peak, pure and simple and it was only 25HP. All the simulators in the world aren't going to change that. I really wish your big claims and marketing weren't so over the top. This exercise did not validate any of it, at least for those with an objective view. No matter how you twist it. You're picking and choosing differences, there's more the same than different here, and twisting a story how YOUR difference is superior. If exhaust temp was higher for AFR I'm sure you'd be telling us how that is superior. And you know what that's fine. It's your job. FWIW, a bullet point list criteria before the test, and a lot less secrecy, would have been more effective in making a point. Putting your balls on the line is walking us through it step by step, not waiting till it's over and deciding to release the story or not. Merry Christmas. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/25 17:05
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| BeachBum | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Merry Xmas everyone !
 My new corvette related xmas gifts was new rollbar padding & a driveshaft loop..... okay, I know not much, but I don't give my wife much in the way of options either for fear of the dredded spouse screw-up. Add in the fact that I don't want her to actually know how expensive some of this corvette performance stuff is, so I just let her take care of the cheap stuff. :tongue3: Wes, I too ran your set-up in my dragstrip sim that allows me design any torque curve I desire. I first got a baseline where you ran 12.79 @ 107 with the old set-up and then worked my way down based upon what I knew about your set-up..... as you sit, with the new motor set-up, I've got you running low 12's in 80 degree weather on a 700 ft track (Famoso)...... but, that is with that tight 1800-2200 rpm converter you're running..... if you are able to loosen up that significantly, my sim has you easy mid to high 11's depending on the air. And in my opinion, the sim just might be right on this considering that torque curve really looks like it would benefit from a converter that flashes up to 3000+ rpm. Just food for thought.... Good Luck ! |
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Posted on: 2008/12/25 19:24
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| Aboatguy | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Great to see a comparison with dyno results
No matter how anyone puts it at that power level, 25 hp is a significant difference, especially if you are talking the same amount of $$$$$ I believe in bang for the buck so IMO a $700 head with $1000 worth of porting is in the same league as a $1700 aftermarket head without porting or the stock castings with 1700 bones worth of work. Now what I'd really like to see is an LTX shoot out with LE vs AI vs AFR at the same relative cost level. Merry Xmas~ |
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Posted on: 2008/12/26 1:17
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| cuisinartvette | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Posted on: 2008/12/26 1:46
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| 1989GTA | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Some interesting comments in this thread. I want to thank the original poster for the time and effort that went into this test. Also the Dart heads did have a bigger intake runner.
1. "25 lousy horsepower". I think most people would think that is a pretty good gain for heads that are virtually the same cost. 2. "If the Dart heads were lightly ported". Could that not also go for the AFR heads? 3."But the 20hp cost $1000". I have no idea where that number comes from. Looks like someone just pulled that out of their your know what. The Darts heads had runners that were optimized using their "wet flow" technology. The AFR heads were digitized after the initial hand porting by Tony. Hence the CNC to follow that pattern as close as posible. The camel hump heads were fully hand ported and a good job at that. It looks to me that each head was maximized using what technology the manufacture felt was best to achieve their goals. Just because a head was CNC'd means nothing. It is the final shape of the port that counts. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/26 19:00
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| BeachBum | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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I agree with the above, and speaking for myself, its hard to find a 25 HP difference between two aftermarket choices that cost the same.... it really is. Its been suggested that perhaps this set-up was somehow slanted towards working favorably for the AFR 195's, but to tell you the truth, I think you could have a big motor, small motor, carb motor, efi motor, 5000 rpm motor, 7000 rpm motor, green motor, pink motor with purple polka dots..... it wouldn't matter, I am not aware of a single motor situation that the Dart Platinum 200 cc Pro-1 cylinder head would outperform the AFR 195's. In otherwords, what situation would the Darts outperform the AFR's ? I really do not know, and would be interested in hearing any opinions on the subject. On another note, the 195 port is used a lot for one simple reason, its the midsize street type runner size, excellent runner size for the guys who are building a semi-rowdy 350, perfect size for the 383 and even a good runner size for the 406-421 street/strip set-ups staying under 7000 rpm. The above pretty much covers 95% of C4 related build-ups and might be why you see the cylinder head utilized so often. But, the 180's, 210's & 227's pretty much fill-up any street/strip voids left.....that is, if you like AFR's.  |
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Posted on: 2008/12/26 19:51
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| PeteK | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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If I could pick up an honest 20 hp or more, I would jump on it. Those of us that have chased ET or mph know how tough it is to gain that kind of power out of an existing vehicle.
If any 1 cylinder head could provide it over the others, and the quality was there, I would likely buy it too. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/26 20:04
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| BeachBum | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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You ain't kidding !! I chased et for many years on an old set-up testing everything under the sun I could get my hands on and it was next to impossible to find that type of gain from an apples vs apples swap-out.... |
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Posted on: 2008/12/26 20:07
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| jsup | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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And that right there is my entire problem with the leghumping agenda. To your credit you kept it limited to the Dart 200CC. A real leghumper would say any head. Beach Bum you said in one thread you've been recommending AFR for some 13 years or so over every other head, despite oil and casting problems that no one will argue. Kinda diminishes your position on the matter in my eyes. Anyone who would admit to suggesting a head with oil and casting problems well...you see where I'm going. To their credit, they fixed it I am not saying it still exists. There's really no point of going through this any more. Clearly a number of people drank the Kool Aid and I will never agree with it. Port the Darts, they will be more than competitive. Dart's target market, their demographic of higher end racers who will take a head and think nothing of porting it, they see it differently. Trophies don't lie. I guess that's the difference between people who take racing as a hobby seriously, and those who want to dabble in it. I will make this point one more time.....One of the resident leghumpers has no problem recommending $1200 rods for a 500hp motor, when $600 rods will be overkill, but recoil at throwing a few hundred bucks at porting heads to get performance. I don't get it. But that's the internet for you isn't it? Everyone is an expert. I will agree to disagree at this point because there's just no seeing anything past your chosen reality. Again, Tony and Wes, thanks for the time and effort. Wish I had the opportunity I'd put a set of T1 CNC'd heads up against Eliminators if I had the opportunity to do it again. I'd like to see that. The 195 is a great niche product, the most competitive in the line. Good luck with it Tony. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/26 21:11
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| BeachBum | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Jsup, I really don't have the energy to argue today, so I won't, but I will only say I am not aware of any serious oiling or casting problems by AFR. Is that what you have experienced ? How do you know they have oiling & casting problems ? As a note, you do know, every single manufacturer of cylinder heads has had less than desirable heads leave their doors at one time or another ? Ask around, you'll hear about cylinder head horror stories from racers & porters of all makes & models. I have now recommended AFR on occasion for over a decade now.....my recommendations have always been casual, meaning, if they didn't take my advise, I didn't care.... it was all good. I have no affiliation to AFR.... and as thus far, my commission check must be lost in the mail. I feel good about the recommendations and opinions I have given in the past because they were always based upon real world experience and testing either by myself personally or others I trusted. Nothing you can say can change that. If this qualifies me as an AFR LegHumper..... then I guess I'm guilty as charged. But, you then would have to admit, that you're a "Wetflow Leg Humper"..... but as near as I can tell, its not based upon any of the reasons I based my recommendations upon. take care. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/26 21:36
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| TonyMamo | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Dont forget guys that the 25 HP spread, while very significant in and of itself, was purely peak to peak. Alot of dyno curves that show that type of gain would also follow the other power curve very closely and potentially even narrow past peak (look at the Dart vs camel hump comparo which shows a net gain/curve which narrows past peak).
Its the area under the curve and the complete different shape of the AFR power curve that speaks volumes and would propel the vehicle faster than a typical gain of 25 HP might indicate without checking out the bigger picture (the rest of the power and torque gains). By 6400 there is a 40 HP gap between the two and by 6700 (still a very usable and pertinent data point) that spread gaps to 60 HP!!....the difference in top end pull of these two combo's would be notably different. I could and would like to comment on about a half a dozen of JSUP's other off base commentary thru out this thread but Im not going to bother as nothing it seems will change the way he feels anyway and honestly its a complete waste of time. Not that I expected anything different in light of the excellent results we posted. Of course my target audience isn't JSUP, its the others reading this that dont have an agenda and are simply looking for the best value and customer service when it comes to mass produced high quality aftermarket cylinder heads. Look for more AFR results to be posted over the next few months including Wes's track results with the new combo which should be really interesting as well. Hope you guys are enjoying some time off... Regards, Tony EDIT....JSUP, the ported T1 Brodix (your new hope to unseat the AFR's) are over 210 cc's when finished (closer to 220 cc's I believe) and would NOT be relevant to this testing for obvious reasons (cost and port volume). However, I would be more than happy to compare them to our larger race heads. Others have and have gone faster with the AFR Eliminators in out of the box configurations. A T1 casting has good potential though in the hands of a very knowledgable and talented porter (in fact Ive ported a number of them back in the day prior to my joining AFR) but once again now we are comparing apples and oranges in dollars spent. Our Comp version 227 would cost less and still outflow the best efforts I have seen on the Track one stuff and the upcoming AFR 235 would smoke both of them. While you think (and have accused me countless times) of "marketing" and hyping just a comparable product in your eyes thru smoke and mirrors (which I find poetic after recently finding out you make a living somehow marketing related), the reality is I am much more knowledgeable than you in this field and have a ton more real world experience related to it. I am imtimately familiar with our product as well as most of my competitors having the opportunity to see most of them on the flowbench as well as the dyno. Also, while some of our other products have far more intense competition, our 23' Eliminator line is one of our latest efforts and it shows (alot of our competitors 23' stuff was designed years ago). While I would agree that most companies rely heavily on marketing to make themselves appear to be better than their competitors (speaking generally of any type of product), there are a select few companies that really do offer their customers a truly better mousetrap. While they market their products as well, they have the goods to back their claims. Reread this paragragh a few times because its the reason you going to continue bringing a knife to a gunfight if you stay the course and continue to badmouth AFR and minimize our accomplishments. Ultimately your going to continue to come up short... I offered you a sweet situation awhile ago to try our product at a later date (after dyno testing and hitting the track a few times with your current combination) but instead you decided to make it your mission to try and badmouth AFR and belittle our efforts which is a shame. If and when you ever quantify what you have I would still be up for working with you in light of all the BS you have started. Perhaps then you could join the "leghumpers" as well. Im thinking a 210 Comp package would kill on that combination of yours...when your ready to actually get off your butt and do some real R&D let me know. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/26 21:39
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| PeteK | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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EDIT....JSUP, the ported T1 Brodix (your new hope to unseat the AFR's) are over 210 cc's when finished (closer to 220 cc's I believe) and would NOT be relevant to this testing for obvious reasons (cost and port volume). However, I would be more than happy to compare them to our larger race heads. Others have and have gone faster with the AFR Eliminators in out of the box configurations. A T1 casting has good potential though in the hands of a very knowledgable and talented porter (in fact Ive ported a number of them back in the day prior to my joining AFR) but once again now we are comparing apples and oranges in dollars spent. Our Comp version 227 would cost less and still outflow the best efforts I have seen on the Track one stuff and the upcoming AFR 235 would smoke both of them.[/quote]
Because I am laying plans for a larger cube small block, I would be very interested to see this comparison. Please post info if it becomes available. Thanks, PK |
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Posted on: 2008/12/26 21:59
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"It was really on a pass until it came apart." "Yeah. They always are." |
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| TonyMamo | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Pete, The new AFR 235's flow extremely well (340+ CFM in the mid .700's....330+ in the mid .600's). They are well over 300 CFM as early as .500 lift which is insane. This a a non raised runner 23' head with a 1206 opening and it swaps in place just as easy as our 227 (same geometry, valve, and stud location). Im really excited to see its power potential and might be building a 460 CID smallblock (with a Dart Little M block) that I may feature those heads on. Its going to be a low compression build (9.5 CR) with a mild for its size hydraulic roller (in the 248 range at .050). Its going in a boat hence the low compression but this build could easily be copied or used as a suggested starting point for something more aggressive in a street car (I would add 10 degrees to the cam and a point of compression for starters). Im hoping for 600 ft/lbs and 600 HP by 5700 RPM's or so (TQ peak likley around 4300 ish). Obviously with big area under the curve (450+ ft/lbs @ 2800). Should be pretty interesting....the more aggressive builds with these heads should easily clear 700 HP....725-750 in a well built high compression engine. Keep tabs on this product....we should be releasing it around March of 09' -Tony |
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Posted on: 2008/12/26 22:27
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| PeteK | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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I will keep my eyes open for them to debut. Most of my builds take me a year or 2 to put together, as I try to have a bigger, back up bullet on the stand at any given time. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/26 22:48
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| 1989GTA | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Tony, if you see this post do you feel the 195 Competition heads are a good 25HP more than the 195 Eliminator heads?
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Posted on: 2008/12/27 1:39
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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First off. Let's be civil. I am trying my best.
John. We all know you have spent hundreds of hours in regards to posting about cylinder heads, talking to people about cylinder heads, researhing cylinder heads and probably if your "wife" was asked, talking about cylinder heads in your sleep. You were told by Tony that you would make "30-40" more HP with the AFR's, and I mentioned you are leaving power on the table with those 210 Dart's. You did not like those comments, and therefore this was the big reason why you went on this AFR rant! Am I right or totally wrong? Now this brings me to this. You have been talking for months, and months about AFR marketing and "leghumpers", and that "wetflow" technology was the best way to measure cfm? Am I correct in saying this John? Also would you agree that the Dart's were outperformed by the AFR's in this test we are talking about One more thing, would you also agree that this was a fair test especially since they both cost around the $1400 mark? And if you didn't think this was a fair comparison, then what AFR head would be a fair comparison in your eyes? I would like to hear your answers before I continue. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/27 1:57
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Tony. Just let Jsup dyno his car, drive it, and be happy with it. I still can't believe you are willing to do this yet once again for him. It proves that you believe in your product, and stand behind it. There are not many threads like this one. I am sure the guys appreciate it! Have a good one, and thanks for doing this. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/27 2:18
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| TonyMamo | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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I like to shoot a bit conservative when quoting numbers....(ask Wes....he can vouch for me!) Looking at the difference in usable flow (.550 and less in this particular case), and the limited duration the valves would be open (a 230 cam is light on duration compared to a much more aggressive build obviously), I would say there would be a 15 - 20 HP difference. Would I fall over if it made more than 20....no...but I wouldn't go to the dyno expecting it. Take the same combo, add a point and a half of compression, throw on a cleaned up port matched Super Vic (Wes just put an aftermarket hood on his car with more room hypothetically!), slide in a 242-248 XE hydraulic roller and THEN I would head to the dyno looking to see more of the potential between the two show itself (especially factoring in the higher RPM's this combo would then operate within). My guess is that combo would show a solid 25+ HP gain....30-35 past peak at say 6800 RPM's. BTW, I will bet you my hypothetical combo above would make 530-540 with the 195 street heads and 560 ish with the Comp 195's. It will also be perfectly content running on 91 octane, and be a great choice for a Vette with a little rear end gear in it and a manual trans, or an auto with a 32-3600 stall. Could be a daily driver but better suited as a nice driving part time vehicle. Wes....you up for it? (just kidding man....but its fun bench racing about it!) -Tony |
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Posted on: 2008/12/27 2:51
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| 1989GTA | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Thanks Tony for the informative reply.
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Posted on: 2008/12/27 3:23
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| BeachBum | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Wes,
I forgot to show you the results of the simulator... thought you might kind of find interesting, and considering the work you guys have done on your dyno testing, probably the least I could do. The below graph shows most data and this is your baseline based upon the information you have provided in previous posts on your set-up when it ran 12.64 @ 107.9 I took that chassis dyno and modified to flywheel and input into the simulator based upon many other known specifications. I assume a shallow stage (12.0") and a few other assumptions. It kicked out numbers that almost exactly hit your timeslip.... I had to modify literally just a couple of small variables to land dead on your timeslip. (This sim is pretty freakn good) A few things you might notice is the timeslip on the bottom left and the run data on the right hand side.... this is what the computer calculates you will run based upon all of the data at the top of the page. You might also notice in the upper right a .92 power factor...... this is because your track conditions were calculated to be taking 8% of your horsepower. (Which I had you at Famoso, which I know is approxmiately 700 ft and you also had said mid 80 weather in a previous post) Sim says you also went 0-60 mph in 4.29 seconds which always cool to know..... thats a hard number if the simulators timeslip actually matches yours...... can't get away from it, its math. One other thing I might mention, torque down low will not be what you say on the chassis dyno.... this is due to your converter torque multiplication and also in part the dyno spike that chassis dynos see on the hit coming off a converter. Your actual torque is considerably lower, but the sim takes all of this into effect with the parameters I have set. [IMG]http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/cc342/tldrane/2-WESBAS.jpg[/IMG] The next dyno graph is with the 395 and AFR cylinder heads and the dyno graph is as per what you guys got the other day. It bears mentioning, this is with the same tight 2200 rpm converter and weather..... While I do not show it, I ran the Dart 200cc Pro-1's dyno graph as well..... which is approxmiately 3 tenths and 3 mph behind the below. [IMG]http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/cc342/tldrane/2-WES395.jpg[/IMG] The last graph I wanted to show you what a good converter will do for your et's, especially on your new set-up.... on your first set-up, considering you had a 5000 rpm motor, you could getaway with a 2200 rpm converter, but on this set-up, its hurting you much more significantly. I only loosened up the converter to 2800 rpm in the below sim.... which is still too tight in my opinion, but its much more respectable. If you notice, this is the "only" difference between the above graph and the below one. Well, thats what 490 HP will do for you..... at least thats what the sim says, and I gotta tell you, through experience, its pretty darn close. I'll also point out, if you optimized everything including the converter/gear and maybe a pound or two, very bottom 11's and even high 10's could be realized. (I've run 11.3 @ 900 ft track with roughly only 430-440 flywheel hp before.... if I had 490 at that time, I probably could have coerced a 10 second et out of it or at least come very close) [IMG]http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/cc342/tldrane/2-WES280.jpg[/IMG] Make what you want out of this stuff..... good luck ! |
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Posted on: 2008/12/27 4:05
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| wesmigletz | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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I happened to check the thread out and saw Mike Lewis from Team Chevelle had posted in it. I bought the Morel lifters and con rods from him. He suggested the Morel lifters as being the only way to fly. They held their own in the upper RPM FWIW... |
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Posted on: 2008/12/28 5:26
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| wesmigletz | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Tony, I could be persuaded, depending how things pan-out at MEPS over the next few weeks... Regardless, the 383 will be coming out of the Vette soon. I'm leaving K.C. for L.A. in about 6 hours with the wife, the boy, the dog, and 5 in-laws in a Sienna mini-van. Assuming I survive the drive back, we can talk. Wes |
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Posted on: 2008/12/28 5:33
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| wesmigletz | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Beach Bum, thanks for the simulation effort. I wasn't able to view the graphs, but I'll check again, when I return to L.A.
Wes |
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Posted on: 2008/12/28 5:34
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| jsup | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Hey wes, on this link provided eariler in the thread:
http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewto ... =0&postorder=asc&start=30 You state, and I quote: Quote: I had no direct affiliation with any of the head manufactures at that point in time. Now let me get this straight: 1. AFR paid for the dyno run. 2. Tony was at the dyno run, with the picture to document. 3. you were SELECTED by Tony to participate in this "experiment" 4. You got a significant discount on the product for your participation. 5. The heads were provided directly from the manufacturer directly for this test not off the shelf from some reseller. 6. AFR did all the flow numbers and testing on your Darts and cast iron heads, right? That's where you got all the numbers from isn't it? 7. Tony says we have "more" tests coming out soon. So I guess this was part of the AFR test cycle as it seems the reference to "more" would indicate as such. How do you claim "no affiliation"? Or is the word "direct" some kind of out to make it seem different than it is? Or was the term "at this time" the out? Why feel the need to color the truth? Or do I have the truth wrong? Was this or was this not totally coordinated with AFR and why not just say that? I don't understand why the wordsmithing? Just call it what it was, an AFR test with a donor motor from Wes for which Wes was compensated. I don't see the big deal of honest disclosure and why the attempt to color it as anything else. Before you say no one wrote a check to Wes, let's look at that. 1. Three sets of heads flow benched for free. Compensation 2. Free dyno time to pick his combination. Compensation 3. Big discount on the AFR product. Compensation Don't want to color the results with facts huh? Is there an NDA in play here? Seems clearly like affiliation to me, direct of otherwise. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/28 15:59
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| cuisinartvette | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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You have no idea how much doing all the teardown track runs, little parts, time, all that adds up. Hell, even getting the exhaust welded back on after the headers (he paid for) were put on. I bet Wes spent a TON, whatever discount he gets if he gets one Im betting is insignificant in comparison. Why rain on the guys parade, come on give the guy a little credit.
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Posted on: 2008/12/28 17:22
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| jsup | Re: Engine Dyno Predictions: | ||
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Who's parade am I raining on? The results are what they are. Wes said he had no relationship. Doesn't change the results one iota if he does. He can still have his parade.
I don't understand the hesitance just to put it all on the table. Why does that upset you? It was far from the "independent test" people are trying to make it out to be. Why diminish the results by playing language games? It was an AFR sponsored test, to position it as anything other is, well, disingenuous. Doesn't change a thing, does it? Another "I did not have sex with that woman" moment. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/28 18:03
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