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| BrianCunningham | Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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This is suppose to be a HPDE not W2W!
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/autoc ... r-cars-with-ferraris.html Brian |
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Posted on: 2009/7/27 13:07
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| Matatk | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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Was there contact or did the ferarri just spin?
What's the difference btw hpde and wheel to wheel anyway? Matthew |
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Posted on: 2009/7/27 13:17
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| BrianCunningham | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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No passing in turns for one
and definitely no contact! Quote: This was an event with the Ferrari club. 3 cars got damaged and a few nice Ferraris got some grass stains, but noone got hurt. |
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Posted on: 2009/7/27 13:25
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| TommyT-Bone | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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Shit happens. Even when it's not supposed to.
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Posted on: 2009/7/27 13:39
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| BillH | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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Quote:
HPDE is running laps, W2W is racing. Big difference. Most HPDE's are run wth safety in mind, they're supposed to be a Driving Experience. The good ones only allow passing on the straights with a pointby by the car in front. This is done because a high percentage of people who run don't want to bust up their cars. Even though his looks like an advanced group, it's stupid to run in a manner where you're going to take out another car, that should be left to the racers. It's also stupid to take out a car where you're running laps wihout the possibility of a win or gaining points for a championship. It's usually the clubs that run events like the vid. The guys who put events on like Hooked ON Driving, T.E.A.M.,etc. usually have safer events. I've instructed at over 130 events and one thing I know for sure: When you have a high dollar club event (like Ferrari), there will be a high percentage of dork drivers there. It's almost like, the higher the car price, the dumber the driver (with exceptions). It's interesting that the "All Corvette" events that I've worked have went very well with the drivers respecting each other. |
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Posted on: 2009/7/27 13:48
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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LOL, don't blame the Ferrari, it looks like the yellow C4 showed him the "chrome horn". I've felt tempted to do that, especially when a faster car is holding me up and the cornerworkers don't pay attention or flag them for several laps. I'm not allowed to pass in the turns, and my car usually isn't capable of passing in the straights unless they let me by. In which case you either head down the hot pit and let them get way ahead, or just follow them closely until they get the point and get some good video. Your lap time will be screwed up anyways, so there's no point being in a rush.
It's one thing when it's between you and another driver, but that level of patience and responsibility goes up tenfold when you've got a line of cars behind you. At Willow springs, I overcooked one turn and stayed in the throttle and did a donut on track and failed to realize there were two cars close enough behind me that they had to evade. Had I been more aware of that, I would've kept control or at least not smoked the place out. Very unfortunate that the other cars were involved though. I'm guessing that vette driver won't be invited back. Some clubs have separate groups for the more expensive cars. At least in that situation you don't have some broke redneck taking out a new 911 that he can't afford to make right. Bill is right though, generally the drivers in more expensive cars seem to have less track experience, and that has to be frustrating driving an exotic and getting passed by some old Chevy, so some of them overcompensate by driving even worse. |
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Posted on: 2009/7/27 17:43
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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Speedventures allows passing anywhere on track without point-bys in their more advanced run groups. I might give that a shot next time out, depending on the track. At some tracks though I can keep up with that group, on others I'm too slow and would be in the way. And of course, if you can't afford to lose it, don't race it. Period. |
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Posted on: 2009/7/27 17:45
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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From a CF driver at the event:
Quote: There were some sick trains all day of 8 to 10 cars really ripping it up and staying close...I guess this is one result. Sounds like it was an accident waiting to happen. Yes, the drivers should know better, but the organizers should be more responsible. |
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Posted on: 2009/7/27 17:53
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| BillH | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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Yea, that's the truth. Even the Speedventures thing, I find a little unsafe. I wouldn't want to instruct in a group like this especially when I have no control of the car I'm in or the idiot pushing us off the track. My feeling is that if your going to run where you can pass anywhere, your car should have a full cage and you should have a suit,etc. And if you have the above, why not just race? |
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Posted on: 2009/7/27 18:31
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| BrianCunningham | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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another angle
[QUOTE]ghoffman; The Chief Instructor asked me to post this: Quote: I was chief instructor.* the yellow c4 driver isn't coming back.** we couldn't determine if he hit the 355 or not but there was no passing w/o a point by and the flaggers were instructed to black flag anyone that didn't obey.* They failed at that pretty miserably* The C4 was driven by a person that has many Pro wins including NASCAR Busch level victories.[/QUOTE] |
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Posted on: 2009/7/28 13:13
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| TommyT-Bone | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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Hard to see exactly what happened in front of the C4. I'm still
 . Domino effect .... Boom-boom. |
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Posted on: 2009/7/28 14:27
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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There's no way the Ferrari would've spun like that without contact.
I was wrong to assume they were following him all day and losing patience, they had just caught him. Seems to be a huge disparity in the speed/experience of the drivers. The advanced guys bitch all day about not getting respect from the novices, but it goes both ways really. |
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Posted on: 2009/7/28 17:45
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| BillH | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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Quote:
True, and that's a common problem in a lot of these events. It's also a problem for the organizers, how to know when someone's ready to move up, especially when they don't have enough instructors to go one on one in the lower groups. Sometimes they'll even say, OK, you have 4 events, you can move up. Makes it tough on both the organizers and drivers. More than once, I've been in the right seat in an advanced group and told my driver to back off and not follow the lines the "advanced" guys were running in front of him because they weren't very good. SCCA had a decent system, the new drivers get a driver's log book that gets filled out by the instructor and signed off by the chief instructor for every event. It's not a real big deal but does show the driver's improvement and gives some indication of when he's ready to move up. We're also starting to teach and evaluate newer instructors. |
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Posted on: 2009/7/28 18:41
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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Personally I have little faith in the ability of the various organizers to pay attention to or evaluate my progress, and the last thing I want is a set of rules holding me down.
I favor the groups that have the loosest rules and least supervision. If I was driving a $100K financed car, I might see it differently. Even so, the close calls I been a part of weren't really all that close. Drivers losing it in front of me, passing without point-bys, spins, etc. Makes for an exciting day, but at no point did I hit panic mode and cry for my mother. And even if someone had made a bonehead move in those situations, the worst result would've been a glancing blow at 40mph. The relative speed difference between 2 cars on a track isn't much. I mean, we're not running a figure 8 or bumpdrafting down a straightaway at 120mph. Or maybe I just don't have respect for what can happen, because it hasn't happened to me. I've only done 4 HPDEs and 2 auto-X. The first two events were with different organizations, and both were in the novice group, and sucked, and I didn't get a single clean lap in on either day. The 3rd was intermediate, the 4th was intermediate-advanced. The only reason I'd not sign up for the advanced group in future events is because either I haven't run that track yet, or because my car can't keep with the pace on that particular track layout, or with the type of cars that sign up for those tracks. I'm by no means an experienced driver, but I think I'm pretty capable of racing (ok driving) comfortably around other cars and paying attention to my surroundings and exercising patience, and that's all that really matters IMO. The guy in this vid was clearly experienced, but did not respect the space of the car in front at all. If anything, his experience was a detriment, because he treated everyone else like a moving roadblock, and not a fellow enthusiast. |
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Posted on: 2009/7/28 20:04
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| BillH | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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Just to clairfy what I wrote,CC. We don't have a bunch of rules just point by, no passing in corners and you have to observe the flags. About all you'll see in a driver's logbook for an event is: "Good job, improving, work on looking further ahead next event." not much more. Intermeadiate & advanced don't use the logbooks and don't have to have an instructor unless they want one. At most events, I have more people wanting me in their car than I can handle. |
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Posted on: 2009/7/28 20:27
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| Jeffvette | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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Downshift corner entry into the wrong gear can do it. I did not see anything from either camera view that indicates the C4 nudged the Ferrari. If he did, there would be bumper damage evident on both cars. The C4 did nose down entering that corner, but he was following extremely close for a non competition event. |
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Posted on: 2009/7/29 0:03
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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Not to mention the other cars he passed in the turns before that.
The Ferrari driver said he was bumped, but afterwards he was hit by another car anyways, so who knows on the damage. The C4 would have a scuff or something though, (if he didn't already from bumping others!) I'd like to race that guy.  |
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Posted on: 2009/7/29 17:06
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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The most important thing you need to do at any track event at any level is be predictable. Especially in a more experienced group; it supercedes how fast you get around the track.
If you're in a slower car and I come up on you with a high closing speed there is rarely an issue unless you do something unpredictable. This usually entails you seeing me coming and thinking that you're doing me a favor by getting off-line and out of my way. This is the worst possible scenario. I've seen you ahead and I've planned where I'm going to pass. When you drive into my line we're going to have issues. The same goes if you're in a faster car. You need to be prepared to pass off line, and be ready to control your car when you're in the marbles. If you can't drive fast off line then you're not ready for the advanced group or open passing. Guys in these groups have lots of experience working traffic. As long as both cars do what's expected, there is never an issue. I'd much rather run with a stock miata with a good driver than another 'vette with similar speed that's all over the place. In lower groups, we try to keep car/driver combos that are close in overall laptimes in the same group. In higher run groups it's much less of a factor. |
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Posted on: 2009/7/30 12:58
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| BillH | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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I was at an event one time (not participating) where the guy running the driver's meeting called the blue/yellow flag a "move over" flag. Blew me away. |
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Posted on: 2009/7/30 14:16
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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It's a tricky issue in beginner groups, though. I just ran with a group that always passes on the left, meaning on some straights the slower car moves off line.
The logic is that by keeping it consistant you're eliminating error. In addition, most beginners don't know where the line is yet, so telling them to stay on line is meaningless. However, in an open passing situation, even with point-by required, I can't think of any reason why the slower car should move off line. Maybe one exception - mechanical failure (or going into pits). |
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Posted on: 2009/7/30 15:18
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| BillH | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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I told guy at the event, It isn't a move over flag, it's an "overtaking" flag (a faster car is catching you and wants to pass".
The worse thing you can do is move the car in either direction, stay where you are. I've seen many students jerk the car to one side or the other, very dangerous. Racer's can do it somewhat but they also generally watch their mirrors. |
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Posted on: 2009/7/30 16:07
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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Hmm. If I'm getting ready to point someone by in the turns, I always give them the inside. But I prepare this well in advance. I enter the turn wide, while pointing them by on the inside, and I stay wide. If they don't bite yet, I stay on whatever side of the track I'm on and don't cross their path.
I figure this is the fastest way to get them in front of me and doesn't slow him down as much. Then as soon as he's a bit ahead of me, I'm on the gas. Plus I like following faster drivers, as generally they know what they're doing. If I don't get right back on them right away, I lose that opportunity. |
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Posted on: 2009/7/30 22:48
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| bogus | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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And the 355 is mid-engined, which can make is very unstable in a corner if not setup right and the driver isn't ready for it.
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Posted on: 2009/8/9 2:09
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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How so? A midengined car probably has more rear weight bias than any F/R car out there.
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Posted on: 2009/8/9 20:47
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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Uh, that's the exact definition of "staying on line"  Also, I respect your intent, but avoid pointing by other cars while still in the curve. This does two things: 1. Has you focusing on them instead of what's in front of you and your own car 2. Makes them react, often by accelerating, while still in the corner. They may or may not be able to handle this. There are a lot of begginers with big HP and small talent. I instructed a guy in a Supercharged C6 with 600+ RWHP. If he gassed it in a corner we were gonna go around. Both situations aren't good. There's plenty of time, wait until you're car is settled then give the point. If the passing zone is too short for that then it's too short to make a clean pass. |
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Posted on: 2009/8/12 19:39
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| tobijohn | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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Forgive my ignorance but what kind of MPH during these types of events are we talking here? TIA...
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Posted on: 2009/8/12 22:40
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| BrianCunningham | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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On the front straight @ Lime Rock ~150+mph
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Posted on: 2009/8/12 22:53
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Remind me to skip Ferrari club events @ Lime Rock | ||
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Down here at Cal Speedway on the Roval setup, new Z06s are hitting 150-160 entering turn 1! And any idiot off the street can show up and give it a shot if they want.
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Posted on: 2009/8/13 0:18
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