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Josh Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Raleigh, NC
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Drove the car for the first time tonight with the AFR heads on it. Overall, the car feels pretty similar to what it was with the Trick Flow heads. Drive ability isn't any different, no complaints there.

The car is faster, I noticed the shifts come quicker than they did with the other heads, so it's making some more power. It also pulls cleaner from 6000-6500. With the old heads, the rate of RPM increase in that area was noticeably less than it is with these heads. I would guesstimate a 1-2 MPH increase at the track, but there's only one way to find that out!

I should have numbers soon to help determine the exact difference.
Posted on: 2009/8/7 2:39
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Matatk Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Looking forward to results.

Matthew
Posted on: 2009/8/7 2:44
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1989 Corvette...RIP
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1989GTA Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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"The car is faster, I noticed the shifts come quicker than they did with the other heads, so it's making some more power. It also pulls cleaner from 6000-6500. With the old heads, the rate of RPM increase in that area was noticeably less than it is with these heads. I would guesstimate a 1-2 MPH increase at the track, but there's only one way to find that out!"

Interesting that you could notice the difference. With the motor hanging on better at higher rpm would show that there is more air flowing through the heads. If you can feel the difference than I bet your estimate is pretty close. Thank You for the update.
Posted on: 2009/8/7 4:00
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TonyMamo Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Excellent....

I was expecting the top end charge to be the area of greatest gains....thats when airflow is at a premium and every little bit extra helps.

Also, the largest disparity in the two heads was on the exhaust side and that will always help the motor make more top end power when there is so little time to evacuate the cylinder. If you cant make room for the next intake charge, power starts to roll off rather quickly because you aren't filling the cylinder with a complete fresh charge to light off...

Looking forward to the dyno/track results....don't forget this head may need/want completely different fueling and ignition timing requirements. The fact you can already see/feel a difference (and considering the unlikely scenario that the WOT tune will like everything exactly the same) is very encouraging.

-Tony

PS....Hey Matatk, I could really use your BS meter for a unique opportunity on another board....LOL Great sig photo....dont know how I just saw it now!
Posted on: 2009/8/7 4:33
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tpi421vett Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Salt Lake City Utah
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Good work Josh! Get it dialed in and let's see what we have!
Posted on: 2009/8/7 6:16
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AFR Dealer, can sell at prices too low to advertise. 801-953-6391
08 C6 LS3,3LT,Z51,A6,NPP
91 vette,450ci, AFR 220, miniram,FAST, Crane 252/260 solid roller, 200 shot nos, ZF6, 4 link, 9", DA corrected to 1300 ft 9.65@145.xx
450ci now with AFR 235...
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Matatk Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Quote:

TonyMamo wrote:

PS....Hey Matatk, I could really use your BS meter for a unique opportunity on another board....LOL Great sig photo....dont know how I just saw it now!


I'll make you a straight up trade. You send me some 195s, and I'll send you an email .gif of the BS meter. I know it's a lot of work on my end, but you're really getting a good deal there.

Matthew
Posted on: 2009/8/7 11:44
_________________
2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc.
1989 Corvette...RIP
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BrianCunningham Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Glad to hear

Can't wait to get mine on.

(currently waiting for 'room at the inn' over at my tuner's shop)
Posted on: 2009/8/7 12:50
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383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes
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dan0617 Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Tyrone, PA
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Glad to see you are up and running. How is the fine tuning coming along so far? Are you going to tune it in on the dyno or at the track or both? Do you have a wideband gauge in the car?
Posted on: 2009/8/8 15:05
_________________
´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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bogus Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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If there were going to be improvements, that's exactly where I would have expected them to be.

Can't wait for the rest of the story!!!
Posted on: 2009/8/8 20:28
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw

Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me

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TonyMamo Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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How we looking Josh?

Any more info on the head swap....the wait is painful.....LOL

Cheers,
Tony

PS....If its notable in the SOTP like you describe I would imagine the gains may approach 20 HP. Looking forward to seeing the power curves overlayed.
Posted on: 2009/8/12 21:42
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1989GTA Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Ditto's.
Posted on: 2009/8/13 1:56
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Josh Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Raleigh, NC
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I am truly sorry for the delay, but I just haven't had time to mess with the car. The last time I was able to touch it was last week when I made this thread. I had intended to dyno/race this week, but life has gotten in the way.

I promise, this forum will be the second to know of any results.
Posted on: 2009/8/13 20:43
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"Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton
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1989GTA Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Life can do that. Thank you for the update.
Posted on: 2009/8/14 0:51
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dan0617 Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Tyrone, PA
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No hurry dude, you can sign my time slip next year if you don't find any free time to lose the race and the bet this year!

Just Kidding. Many more important things in life than working on the car, and making the car second important to them is the key in enjoying working on the car when the time is found. I have learned that the hard way, from stressing over not finding the time to work on it, then impatiently hurrying things when I do. I think I'm over that stage in life, thank God.
Posted on: 2009/8/14 13:51
_________________
´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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Josh Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Lol, keep talkin' vert boy. The only chance you've got it is if I forget to start my car or something!

Aren't you full weight? 3600+ right?

Remember, pink sharpie.
Posted on: 2009/8/14 15:00
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dan0617 Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Full weight, which is 3520 with me in car. Asking me my weight, getting nervous are ya??? Runnin a 250 shot now and pullin hard. Auto with converter stalled for nitrous, no clutch slipping for me. I can read a playboy while driving down the track ahead of you.

Be careful stickin' that chest out stick boy, my friend with the '98 Cobra running 17 lbs boost and water/meth did the same thing. He ended up bending a shift fork in his Tremec and later admitted it was because he was tired of looking at my taillights over and over again so he tried too hard. Alot can be said for a properly stalled auto and a car that dead hooks on every launch.

And yes, per your request, I'll buy and send you a pink sharpie to use.
Posted on: 2009/8/14 20:48
_________________
´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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tpi421vett Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Salt Lake City Utah
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Auto's with a good convertor work great for drag racing. But 6 speeds can still run some numbers. Don't count anybody out just because they have a stick shift. I have surprised a few people.

And my car isn't a trailer queen. I drive my car to the track.
Posted on: 2009/8/16 5:04
_________________
AFR Dealer, can sell at prices too low to advertise. 801-953-6391
08 C6 LS3,3LT,Z51,A6,NPP
91 vette,450ci, AFR 220, miniram,FAST, Crane 252/260 solid roller, 200 shot nos, ZF6, 4 link, 9", DA corrected to 1300 ft 9.65@145.xx
450ci now with AFR 235...
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jonecap Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Raleigh, NC
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Quote:

dan0617 wrote:
Full weight, which is 3520 with me in car. Asking me my weight, getting nervous are ya??? Runnin a 250 shot now and pullin hard. Auto with converter stalled for nitrous, no clutch slipping for me. I can read a playboy while driving down the track ahead of you.

Be careful stickin' that chest out stick boy, my friend with the '98 Cobra running 17 lbs boost and water/meth did the same thing. He ended up bending a shift fork in his Tremec and later admitted it was because he was tired of looking at my taillights over and over again so he tried too hard. Alot can be said for a properly stalled auto and a car that dead hooks on every launch.

And yes, per your request, I'll buy and send you a pink sharpie to use.

This should be interesting, but I think Josh might have your number. I ran a 10.75 at 128 in bad air on a stock bottom end/stock heads LT4 with a hotcam, ET Streets, 150 shot, and a Centerforce clutch with Josh filming the run at the same track he runs at. With his new set up, Josh should be at least 3 to 4 tenths faster than that on a 150 shot. I suspect with a 250 shot he would see low 10's.

The only way to tell for sure is to get it to the track!

10.75 @ 128 nitrous pass - 6.91 in the 1/8 mile
Posted on: 2009/8/16 13:34
_________________
'02 Z06 - 11.58 @ 117.40 CAI & ET Streets only...

Sold but not forgotten:
'96 CE LT4
11.65 @ 118.76 LT4 hotcam, gears, tires, and exhaust
10.72 @ 128.90 on the jug ;)

'90 Z51 6 speed- 13.10 @ 105.07 with lots of...
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dan0617 Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Don't forget this is a friendly wager and alot of kidding around here guys, I really won't be upset in the least if I get beat. I should be outpowered and I'm hoping my dead hooking ability and my auto and stall converter will keep me even or an edge ahead, time will tell!

Also don't forget I'm not done picking up speed or time either, I don't think. I ran a 10.66 @ 131, but melted the ground straps completely off on that pass and could see signs of bad detonation on the plugs. Now running colder plugs and a richer mixture. Also I still had a fairly large amount of blow-by when I made that pass, it is completely gone now so rings must have finally sealed up. Last but not least, I've upped the shot another 25 hp. I'm also planning on launching a little harder. If it stays together I should pick up .2 to .4. Can't wait for another track trip but life has been crazy busy lately.

Also, I'm running 3.07 gears and locking the converter at the bottom of 3rd gear. I'm not optimized, to say the least, on rpms when I cross the stripe. Hopefully I'll be running 3.45's next spring.

This should be good, I think our wager is at a distance for this year but I sure hope to get hooked up at a track next year!

As a side note, I've been driving the car lately and it's been perfect. It is great to just drop the top, crank up the stereo and enjoy it.
Posted on: 2009/8/16 22:17
_________________
´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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dan0617 Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Tyrone, PA
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Quote:

tpi421vett wrote:

And my car isn't a trailer queen. I drive my car to the track.


Isn't that great?? I just love driving in, holding my own or even beating track only cars, then driving out. I just totally love that. Then I drive to a club and have people ask, isn't that the car that so and so said ran in the 10's yesterday at the test and tune? Yipper!

Jonecap, you must have the same feeling, you have a serious sleeper there too.
Posted on: 2009/8/16 22:27
_________________
´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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88BlackZ51 Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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You know what happens when you get greddy.......


BOOM!!
Posted on: 2009/8/17 1:37
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88BlackZ51 Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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481 Posts
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Quote:

jonecap wrote:
Quote:

dan0617 wrote:
Full weight, which is 3520 with me in car. Asking me my weight, getting nervous are ya??? Runnin a 250 shot now and pullin hard. Auto with converter stalled for nitrous, no clutch slipping for me. I can read a playboy while driving down the track ahead of you.

Be careful stickin' that chest out stick boy, my friend with the '98 Cobra running 17 lbs boost and water/meth did the same thing. He ended up bending a shift fork in his Tremec and later admitted it was because he was tired of looking at my taillights over and over again so he tried too hard. Alot can be said for a properly stalled auto and a car that dead hooks on every launch.

And yes, per your request, I'll buy and send you a pink sharpie to use.

This should be interesting, but I think Josh might have your number. I ran a 10.75 at 128 in bad air on a stock bottom end/stock heads LT4 with a hotcam, ET Streets, 150 shot, and a Centerforce clutch with Josh filming the run at the same track he runs at. With his new set up, Josh should be at least 3 to 4 tenths faster than that on a 150 shot. I suspect with a 250 shot he would see low 10's.

The only way to tell for sure is to get it to the track!

10.75 @ 128 nitrous pass - 6.91 in the 1/8 mile



So when are you buying that new Dart block? I bet you would love to build a 427 LTx.
Posted on: 2009/8/17 1:38
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jonecap Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Raleigh, NC
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Quote:

88BlackZ51 wrote:
Quote:

jonecap wrote:
Quote:

dan0617 wrote:
Full weight, which is 3520 with me in car. Asking me my weight, getting nervous are ya??? Runnin a 250 shot now and pullin hard. Auto with converter stalled for nitrous, no clutch slipping for me. I can read a playboy while driving down the track ahead of you.

Be careful stickin' that chest out stick boy, my friend with the '98 Cobra running 17 lbs boost and water/meth did the same thing. He ended up bending a shift fork in his Tremec and later admitted it was because he was tired of looking at my taillights over and over again so he tried too hard. Alot can be said for a properly stalled auto and a car that dead hooks on every launch.

And yes, per your request, I'll buy and send you a pink sharpie to use.

This should be interesting, but I think Josh might have your number. I ran a 10.75 at 128 in bad air on a stock bottom end/stock heads LT4 with a hotcam, ET Streets, 150 shot, and a Centerforce clutch with Josh filming the run at the same track he runs at. With his new set up, Josh should be at least 3 to 4 tenths faster than that on a 150 shot. I suspect with a 250 shot he would see low 10's.

The only way to tell for sure is to get it to the track!

10.75 @ 128 nitrous pass - 6.91 in the 1/8 mile



So when are you buying that new Dart block? I bet you would love to build a 427 LTx.

You're right. I'm going to build something so I can keep up with you built motor guys. I'm probably going to drop some AFRs on the stock bottom end first to see how much more I can wring out of it.
Posted on: 2009/8/17 2:07
_________________
'02 Z06 - 11.58 @ 117.40 CAI & ET Streets only...

Sold but not forgotten:
'96 CE LT4
11.65 @ 118.76 LT4 hotcam, gears, tires, and exhaust
10.72 @ 128.90 on the jug ;)

'90 Z51 6 speed- 13.10 @ 105.07 with lots of...
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Josh Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Raleigh, NC
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I was just curious about your weight is all, don't get your panties in a wad. My car is a little lighter, 3220 or so is my race weight. And I should out power you, so there really isn't an excuse for me to lose other than driver ability.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the best driver out there, but with the weight advantage and the theoretical power advantage I'm pretty sure even an average driver like me can put the beats on Dan's car. If not, I'll just spray more nitrous until I do!
Posted on: 2009/8/17 13:14
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jonecap Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Raleigh, NC
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Quote:

Josh wrote:
I was just curious about your weight is all, don't get your panties in a wad. My car is a little lighter, 3220 or so is my race weight. And I should out power you, so there really isn't an excuse for me to lose other than driver ability.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the best driver out there, but with the weight advantage and the theoretical power advantage I'm pretty sure even an average driver like me can put the beats on Dan's car. If not, I'll just spray more nitrous until I do!


Don't let Josh fool you. He can drive!
Posted on: 2009/8/17 22:27
_________________
'02 Z06 - 11.58 @ 117.40 CAI & ET Streets only...

Sold but not forgotten:
'96 CE LT4
11.65 @ 118.76 LT4 hotcam, gears, tires, and exhaust
10.72 @ 128.90 on the jug ;)

'90 Z51 6 speed- 13.10 @ 105.07 with lots of...
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dan0617 Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Tyrone, PA
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Sticks are fun, but wouldn't it be nice to dead hook the launch every time, then have your engine dead in it's sweet spot for the entire pull down the track? That is the advantage I have that I hope will help make up for my overweight and underpowered 'vert. (never thought I'd run 131 in the 1/4 and call it underpowered!!)

Anyway, I know when I'm all dialed in and done adding hp and tq, you will out mph me by a few at least, but I think (read, hope to hell), that I can eek you by a tenth or 2. If not, I'll buy you a beer and sign your timeslip gladly and be happy with all the fun we had.

BTW: I bought a full kegerator setup that isn't fully attached to the fridge, and have a 1/6th keg of Michelob Amber Bock in the basement fridge so I'l gladly supply the beer, win or lose. If you don't like Amber Bock let me know a few days or so ahead of time so I can hurry up and kick the keg and get a refill of something else!

Anyone here going to the Richmond or Dover or Martinsville Nascar races this fall, let me know. I'll be camping at them and am taking the keg setup.
Posted on: 2009/8/17 22:45
_________________
´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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Josh Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Raleigh, NC
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Quote:

dan0617 wrote:
Sticks are fun, but wouldn't it be nice to dead hook the launch every time, then have your engine dead in it's sweet spot for the entire pull down the track?


Sure it would. I don't have anything against an auto. I just prefer to really drive the car as opposed to being along for the ride. Here's a story to illustrate:

You stage your car, then get out. I throw a brick just right through the back window. The brick lands on the skinny pedal up under the dash. Not only does the car launch like a rocket, it will probably run a faster time than it would had you been driving (and I use the term 'driving' loosely) because the car is 200 lbs. lighter without you in it. How in Hell do you call that driving if a damn brick can turn a better ET than you can?

No offense to the auto guys, lol.

Just bustin' your chops a bit Dan. It'll all be over here in a couple months. Win or lose, I'll get us a round or two.

Quote:
That is the advantage I have that I hope will help make up for my overweight and underpowered 'vert. (never thought I'd run 131 in the 1/4 and call it underpowered!!)


No doubt man, it is a huge advantage. 131 is haulin' the mail, no doubt. But I went 119 on motor before the AFR heads, and I really think it'll do 122 or so now. On 150 I should be mid 130's no sweat, and creeping on 138-140 with a 250 shot. With that kind of MPH, assuming my non-driving ass can net even a mid 1.7, I think I've got you covered.

Quote:
Anyway, I know when I'm all dialed in and done adding hp and tq, you will out mph me by a few at least, but I think (read, hope to hell), that I can eek you by a tenth or 2. If not, I'll buy you a beer and sign your timeslip gladly and be happy with all the fun we had.


No doubt man, I'll gladly sign the slip as well. It's all in fun, no mal-intent on this side of the computer.

Quote:
BTW: I bought a full kegerator setup that isn't fully attached to the fridge, and have a 1/6th keg of Michelob Amber Bock in the basement fridge so I'l gladly supply the beer, win or lose. If you don't like Amber Bock let me know a few days or so ahead of time so I can hurry up and kick the keg and get a refill of something else!


I'm easy man, I like beer that's brown. See you at the track!
Posted on: 2009/8/18 3:29
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anesthes Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Boston, MA
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Quote:

Josh wrote:

You stage your car, then get out. I throw a brick just right through the back window. The brick lands on the skinny pedal up under the dash. Not only does the car launch like a rocket, it will probably run a faster time than it would had you been driving (and I use the term 'driving' loosely) because the car is 200 lbs. lighter without you in it. How in Hell do you call that driving if a damn brick can turn a better ET than you can?


I like sticks too, and prefer them - if they don't explode taking my legs out. I see the humor, but if you were attempting to run bottom 10s you might find you're not capable of shifting as fast as an auto with a good rachet. Just a thought.


Quote:

Josh wrote:

No offense to the auto guys, lol.


If I could afford a stick that wouldn't explode I'd run one. I'm waiting for a good deal on a used TKO 600..

Quote:

Josh wrote:

No doubt man, it is a huge advantage. 131 is haulin' the mail, no doubt. But I went 119 on motor before the AFR heads, and I really think it'll do 122 or so now. On 150 I should be mid 130's no sweat, and creeping on 138-140 with a 250 shot. With that kind of MPH, assuming my non-driving ass can net even a mid 1.7, I think I've got you covered.


I want to apologize for the question I'm about to ask, but honestly I don't want to spend 3 hours reading through a thousand posts on your test. (but highly appreciate the fact that you are doing them).

The trickflow heads were ported and reworked, right?

The AFR heads were used as cast, cnc, or ported too?


I'm trying to develop a feel for the basis of comparison between the heads, dollar for dollar.

I, like you an curious to see what the AFR heads will do. I pulled 119-120mph with sportsman II heads, as cast with ZERO porting. I'd like to see 130mph with AFRs, as cast.
For twice the cost of my old sportsmans, that is a reasonable expectation I think. ?



-- Joe
Posted on: 2009/8/18 16:40
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TonyMamo Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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anesthes wrote:


I, like you an curious to see what the AFR heads will do. I pulled 119-120mph with sportsman II heads, as cast with ZERO porting. I'd like to see 130mph with AFRs, as cast.
For twice the cost of my old sportsmans, that is a reasonable expectation I think. ?



-- Joe

No...

That's neither reasonable or remotely possible.

Reasonable is paying about $30-$40 per horsepower in most mods you do in an attempt to increase power. Once you have a stout baseline count on that figure per pony doubling....the stronger your baseline, the more it costs to increase your power output and its an X-squared curve of sorts working against your pocketbook.

A three MPH increase in trap speed in a 3500 pound car requires about 35-40 additional HP. The AFR heads in this test cost the same or less than the ported TFS head he is comparing them to, but even if they were $500 more it would be well worth the money (assuming a three MPH gain) because Josh would have only spent less than $15 per pony....thats a Walmart blue light special for the power gained.

Expecting/hoping for a 119 MPH trap speed to potentially see 130 (and mentioning "reasonable" in the same sentence) would require an increase of 140 horsepower over a baseline head that costs about the same as the AFR we are comparing it to. All costs aside, I dont think ANY headswap could ever be expected to produce or achieve those types of results even if the baseline heads were bonestock emissions heads (although I have seen some AFR heads approaching an 80 HP gain over a weak stock headed baseline).

Its all about value and if you determine value based on HP per dollar (which is the only way you should be evaluating it) the AFR's will shine whether your comparing them to a $800 budget set of stock heads or more expensive set from one of our competitors.

Lastly, none of the AFR's are as cast....they are all 100% CNC ported which is where some if the value inherent in their purchase is derived from, but that is only one of many perks.

Anyway...gotta run but needed to quickly bring this thread back to reality

-Tony
Posted on: 2009/8/18 17:08
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anesthes Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Quote:

TonyMamo wrote:
No...

That's neither reasonable or remotely possible.


The sportsmans flow barely 230cfm on a good day. The AFR's flow over 280..

Quote:

TonyMamo wrote:


A three MPH increase in trap speed in a 3500 pound car requires about 35-40 additional HP. The AFR heads in this test cost the same or less than the ported TFS head he is comparing them to, but even if they were $500 more it would be well worth the money




Stop right there. I don't care how they compare to modified TFS heads. That kind of defeats the purpose of comparing heads.

AFR heads are about $300 more than stock TFS heads, so spending money porting them (TFS) and comparing doesn't make sense. I was hoping he had a AS CAST TFS vs AFR number for me to look at.

Quote:

TonyMamo wrote:

You expecting is 119 trap car to see 130 (and mentioning "reasonable in the same sentence)would require an increase of 140 horsepower over a baseline head that costs about the same as the AFR we are comparing it to. All costs aside, I dont think any headswap could ever be expected to produce or achieve those types of results.


Hrmm. For $300 I can justify going from a TFS head to an AFR head, no questions asked. When the difference approaches $500-600, it's a tough sell for 2-3mph.

Quote:

TonyMamo wrote:
Its all about value and if you determine value based on HP per dollar (which is the only way you should be evaluating it) the AFR's will shine whether your comparing them to a $800 budget set of stock heads or more expensive set from one of our competitors.


I'm looking for some data showing true gains. This isn't a debate over which head is best. This is a debate over should money be spent running the best head, or saved on good heads and put towards a more effective power adder.

Quote:

TonyMamo wrote:
Lastly, none of the AFR's are as cast....they are all 100%


Eh sorry. I meant more along the lines of "bolt and go". Not messed with, and not paying for extra CNC work. My bad.


Quote:

TonyMamo wrote:

Anyway...gotta run but needed to quickly bring this thread back to reality


I don't think it's out of reality Tony. I'm just looking for some proven numbers showing best bang for buck. I like AFR, and if it was somebody else's money I'd play all day. But you know, in reality, money saved on roller cam and best headers can be put towards nitrous or a blower and make twice the power improvement.

So yeah, I guess, I am saying for the money I'd expect the AFR heads to put down 8-10mph increase over a crap head like a sportsman. Which is why I asked if the 119-120mph Josh had was with a fully ported and modified TFS head, or as sold from summit.

-- Joe
Posted on: 2009/8/18 17:26
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Josh Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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My TFS heads were ported by Lloyd Elliot. They also had very nice valve springs and retainers on them. Once all the cost of the port work and valve springs was added in, the TFS heads came in nearly identical in price to the AFR heads. From my stickied thread:

Quote:
TFS aluminum 195 CC heads, P/N TFS-30400006-CNC.
The heads have bee hive springs, 10 degree locks, and titanium retainers.
The heads have been lightly ported and decked by Lloyd Elliot.
Total retail for the heads with port work and upgraded springs is $2000.


VS

Quote:
AFR aluminum 195 CC heads competition ports, P/N AFR-1095. Nothing has been done to the heads, they will be bolted on as they come from AFR. Total retail for these heads is $2016.
Posted on: 2009/8/18 18:37
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TonyMamo Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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anesthes wrote:

So yeah, I guess, I am saying for the money I'd expect the AFR heads to put down 8-10mph increase over a crap head like a sportsman. Which is why I asked if the 119-120mph Josh had was with a fully ported and modified TFS head, or as sold from summit.

-- Joe

First of all your comparing two different cars....Josh doesn't run a Sportsman head....he has baselined and documented this test extensively (if you care to read thru it) with a different head entirely. I suggest you take the time to go over the pertinent information.

And the fact you would expect ANY head to give you the increase you are suggesting (8-10 MPH trap speeds) after having the chance to read what that would actually entail tells me you don't really spend much time at the track or building/dyno testing engines to truly appreciate the huge gains you are carelessly throwing around.

If Josh does pick up 2-3 MPH in trap speed that IS a significant gain and once you've been to the track a few times and have changed combinations and spent money to increase your performance, you will have a better appreciation of whats really needed to accomplish this.

I dont want to argue with you Joe but Im confident others on this board that have more track experience will back me in what I am saying....picking up just a few MPH in your trap speeds is easily noticeable in the SOTP and requires a good deal of HP to accomplish that. An 8-10 MPH increase in trap speeds isn't in the realm of any headswap....period.

-Tony
Posted on: 2009/8/18 18:37
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BeachBum Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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I think to be fair, if you look at the extremes.... anything is possible.

For example take a stout 406 sbc built with a solid roller .750+ lift 280+ duration Joe Sherman type cam designed to pull to 8000 rpm..... and put on a decent set of aftermarket 23 degree heads that say flow around 280 cfm..... the performance results may be along the lines of 10.2 @ 130 mph or thereabouts...... now take off those 280 cfm and put on some 70's smog head that wheezes to max flow of 200 cfm if its a windy day..... that same motor now might only run 11.2 @ 120 mph..... power is completely gone.

Now take off those 70's smog heads and put on a bitchin set of aftermarket cylinder heads that flow up around 320 cfm..... and that motor just might see 9.8 @ 134 mph....

So from Joe's perspective, yes in my opinion, you could see 10 mph swings, but it would have to be an extreme and none of the cylinder heads talked about in this thread are that poor in my opinion. The difference between these two test cylinder heads would more than likely be in the 15-20 HP range..... I say this because of the street set-up it is under.... these two same cylinder heads under a rowdy motor could show a difference of 40 HP.... assuming the 2hp for every cfm gained theory..... which is attainable as most engine builders will tell you, but the motor has to be willing and Josh's .570ish lift cam doesn't even take advantage of either of these cylinder heads peak flow area, thus he is more limited to around 1 hp per cfm..... and considering there is a 22 cfm difference in these cylinder heads at .600 lift, and around 12-14 cfm at .500 lift.... on a linear scale, we can say there is probably around 15-18 cfm difference at Josh's cam peak.

Which I might add, unless the AFR's were milled to get compression up, that HP gain might be partially wiped out by compression.... (I do not remember what Josh did, but I remember it was going to be like 11.4 cr vs 10.8 or something like that)

The test in itself has lost some definitive value due to test conditions and unknowns at the start such as what was done to the Trick Flows..... the company that flow tested them, I remember said they were thoroughly ported, but hard to see due to bead runover, but yet Josh had paperwork for just a little clean-up.... I dunno.

The one thing I will say, as all true racers will tell you that are et hunting.... we'll take hundredths at a time if thats what is available.... a gain of 1-2 mph on any given day with a bolt-on performance item like a cylinder head is a good day and can literally mean a 15-35 HP gain dependant on how fast you were going in the first place. The guys that race in heads-up series are begging for .1 and .2 mph gains, let alone a full 1-2 mph. It is a defnitive differnce in power to most serious racers.

I think the one thing some might lose sight of, is the faster you go, the less HP has an effect..... many believe a 10 hp gain will give you a tenth... and it typically will on a 14 second car..... but on a 10 second car, its more in the 4 or 5 hundredths area..... on a 7 second car, its thousands or two and may be unnoticeable even to the keenest eye... but on a 19 second car, you could see 2 tenths gain from that 10 hp gain.

But, I don't know, the above is just my opinion, I am guessing like everybody is.
Posted on: 2009/8/18 20:03
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anesthes Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Quote:

Josh wrote:
My TFS heads were ported by Lloyd Elliot. They also had very nice valve springs and retainers on them. Once all the cost of the port work and valve springs was added in, the TFS heads came in nearly identical in price to the AFR heads. From my stickied thread:

Quote:
TFS aluminum 195 CC heads, P/N TFS-30400006-CNC.
The heads have bee hive springs, 10 degree locks, and titanium retainers.
The heads have been lightly ported and decked by Lloyd Elliot.
Total retail for the heads with port work and upgraded springs is $2000.


VS

Quote:
AFR aluminum 195 CC heads competition ports, P/N AFR-1095. Nothing has been done to the heads, they will be bolted on as they come from AFR. Total retail for these heads is $2016.


Hi Josh,

Thanks for the cliff notes version.

I truly appreciate you doing this test, so don't take what I'm saying the wrong way.

I wouldn't spend $2000 on ported TFS heads, or AFR heads. I'm looking at $1500 AFR heads (that can be had a little cheaper), vs $1100 TFS heads. That is not the comparison you did so it's kinda hard for me to use the data.

I guess what you were doing was, seeing which was better on a $2000 budget? If so, I'd probably agree with Tony the comp port AFR's.

-- Joe
Posted on: 2009/8/18 20:49
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anesthes Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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TonyMamo wrote:

First of all your comparing two different cars....Josh doesn't run a Sportsman head....he has baselined and documented this test extensively (if you care to read thru it) with a different head entirely. I suggest you take the time to go over the pertinent information.

And the fact you would expect ANY head to give you the increase you are suggesting (8-10 MPH trap speeds) after having the chance to read what that would actually entail tells me you don't really spend much time at the track or building/dyno testing engines to truly appreciate the huge gains you are carelessly throwing around.

If Josh does pick up 2-3 MPH in trap speed that IS a significant gain and once you've been to the track a few times and have changed combinations and spent money to increase your performance, you will have a better appreciation of whats really needed to accomplish this.

I dont want to argue with you Joe but Im confident others on this board that have more track experience will back me in what I am saying....picking up just a few MPH in your trap speeds is easily noticeable in the SOTP and requires a good deal of HP to accomplish that. An 8-10 MPH increase in trap speeds isn't in the realm of any headswap....period.

-Tony


Tony,

First off. I'm not trying to argue with you. I didn't call you out in the thread.

Secondly, I have built plenty of motors and spent years at the track.. I've never ever ever seen a set of heads give an 8-10 mph increase in trap speed, but I've never tried AFR heads.

What I was doing was, looking for realistic cost comparison. You and BeachBum both summed up what I wanted to hear.

Basically, what your getting at is that by spending hundreds of more dollars on a superior head, I could expect to pick up something between 2-3mph on my trap speed. In Josh's case, he's running a comp port 195 which retails for $2000, almost twice as much as a 'out of the box' TFS head.

And the difference between a $1100 TFS head, a $900 RHS head, and a $2000 AFR head might be 25hp ?

So, dollar for dollar, a budget builder would be miles ahead saving the $1000, and putting it towards a used blower or new nitrous kit to get a 150+hp increase.

Let me put it in more simple terms.

Say my 412 for example, at around 10.4:1 with el cheapo TFS or RHS heads, will trap 125mph.

Using a pair of AFR elims (10.2:1 compression) with comp ports, might trap 128mph?

El cheapo TFS or RHS with $1200 S-trim might trap 130+..

-- Joe
Posted on: 2009/8/18 20:59
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anesthes Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Quote:

BeachBum wrote:

So from Joe's perspective, yes in my opinion, you could see 10 mph swings, but it would have to be an extreme and none


I didn't really expect to see a 10mph swing, but honestly, as a consumer who has always went a cheaper route on heads I was hoping to see a higher split.. HOWEVER....


Quote:

BeachBum wrote:


The test in itself has lost some definitive value due to test conditions and unknowns at the start such as what was



The problem with the test is the numbers are not helpful for the majority of people. How many people do you know that would buy a set of TFS heads, then send them to one of the best porters around to be ported? No way.

And how many people do you know will spend $2k on heads.

Some real tests, for working class people like me would be:

Out of box TFS heads vs AFR with normal ports ($300-400 price split)

RHS vs AFR with normal port ($500-600 price slit)


To say $300 will get you 35hp out of a set of heads, well you might say yeah I'll spend the extra money. But you know, a 150shot kit is like $500, and used s-trims can be had all day for $900-1200.


Quote:

BeachBum wrote:

The one thing I will say, as all true racers will tell you that are et hunting.... we'll take hundredths at a time if thats what is available.... a gain of 1-2 mph on any given day with a bolt-on performance item like a cylinder head is a good day and can literally mean a 15-35 HP gain dependant on how fast you were going in the first place. The guys that race in heads-up series are begging for .1 and .2 mph gains, let alone a full 1-2 mph. It is a defnitive differnce in power to most serious racers.



While that holds true for some pretty serious bracket racers, not using a C4 would probably net the same gain. I mean, if we're talking 1/4 mile cars to begin with.. Put the same motor in a vega with a 9bolt and the thing will go 10mph and a second or more faster.. So to spend a ton of money on different heads when building the wrong car to begin with doesn't make sense either.

For a mean street machine, that doesn't race for points, it's hard to swallow the price difference. no?

-- Joe
Posted on: 2009/8/18 21:07
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BeachBum Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Quote:

anesthes wrote:
Quote:

BeachBum wrote:

So from Joe's perspective, yes in my opinion, you could see 10 mph swings, but it would have to be an extreme and none


I didn't really expect to see a 10mph swing, but honestly, as a consumer who has always went a cheaper route on heads I was hoping to see a higher split.. HOWEVER....


Quote:

BeachBum wrote:


The test in itself has lost some definitive value due to test conditions and unknowns at the start such as what was



The problem with the test is the numbers are not helpful for the majority of people. How many people do you know that would buy a set of TFS heads, then send them to one of the best porters around to be ported? No way.

And how many people do you know will spend $2k on heads.

Some real tests, for working class people like me would be:

Out of box TFS heads vs AFR with normal ports ($300-400 price split)

RHS vs AFR with normal port ($500-600 price slit)


To say $300 will get you 35hp out of a set of heads, well you might say yeah I'll spend the extra money. But you know, a 150shot kit is like $500, and used s-trims can be had all day for $900-1200.


Quote:

BeachBum wrote:

The one thing I will say, as all true racers will tell you that are et hunting.... we'll take hundredths at a time if thats what is available.... a gain of 1-2 mph on any given day with a bolt-on performance item like a cylinder head is a good day and can literally mean a 15-35 HP gain dependant on how fast you were going in the first place. The guys that race in heads-up series are begging for .1 and .2 mph gains, let alone a full 1-2 mph. It is a defnitive differnce in power to most serious racers.



While that holds true for some pretty serious bracket racers, not using a C4 would probably net the same gain. I mean, if we're talking 1/4 mile cars to begin with.. Put the same motor in a vega with a 9bolt and the thing will go 10mph and a second or more faster.. So to spend a ton of money on different heads when building the wrong car to begin with doesn't make sense either.

For a mean street machine, that doesn't race for points, it's hard to swallow the price difference. no?

-- Joe


Hi Joe,

I think the difference between a $ 900 RHS head and $ 1200 TF head vs a $ 1500 AFR street port 195 or 210 head would be around 20-30 HP for a street car, even more for a race car....

I think the difference between a $ 900 RHS and $ 1200 TF head vs a $ 2000 comp AFR head would be in lines of literally 30-40 HP for a street car and could be 50 HP on a racecar that is running the cam and rpm necessary to show the benefits of a well done cnc ported better cylinder head.

But who knows, maybe I am wrong and there is no power difference at all, I'll let you come to your own conclusion on that.

As a note, the Trick Flows in this test probably cost more than the AFR's.... but I don't know. I do know I think the base head is around $ 1200-1300 and if they were thoroughly ported by a professional as stated by Josh's flow test guy, then there is a good chance they cost $ 2000 or more with total cost. But I dunno..... guess it depends on the deal given to the customer. I know most porters prices start at $ 500 and go dramatically up dependant on what is being done, how much is being done and what casting it is.

But, I do know there is sizeable difference.... that is very easy to swallow for most, hence the huge aftermarket cylinder head market for new cylinder heads and Porting services. In otherwords, if 25 HP is not worth $ 300 in porting to you, then I doubt if you're going to like your heads/rockers/cam/ etc modifications as well.

I do not like the Vega analogy, I have heard that before..... it could be then said, why a Vega? why not a mini-cooper and then why not a motorcycle?..... before long, its just a motor on rails. I think everybody has limits that they set themselves.... one guy may say, I want a vette and I want as much power as I can get, but my limit is streetabililty and my budget is $ 10k..... the next may say, my dream car is my 69 Camaro and thats my base, and I don't care about streetability, I want as much performance as I can get for my $ 15k budget, which is limit is then price, where the others is limited by budget and streetability.... there is nothing wrong with eithers choice.

My only point, in things like the cylinder head debates and other performance related debates, there is no right and wrong answer, its all about what you have and expect it to do..... My opinion, if you do not see the value in cylinder head porting, then don't do it..... its all good. But, if you see the value in spending $ 500-$1500 for cylinder head porting and gains ranging from 20 HP to literally 60+HP depending on your set-up then do it.... its all good.
Posted on: 2009/8/18 21:44
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tpi421vett Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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I just got my 91 450ci running. I took off some old ported AFR 220's and put on some new state of the art AFR 235's. I'm not done tuning yet, but there is a big SOTP difference. These 235's rock!!! I will test it at the track to do a comparison my self. But personally, I would take a new modern state of the art cylinder head over a ported head. A ported head they aren't adding material in the dead spots, just hogging it out bigger.

I will start a new thread when I have some track results.
Posted on: 2009/8/18 22:00
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anesthes Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Quote:

BeachBum wrote:

Hi Joe,

I think the difference between a $ 900 RHS head and $ 1200 TF head vs a $ 1500 AFR street port 195 or 210 head would be around 20-30 HP for a street car, even more for a race car....


Agreed..


Quote:

BeachBum wrote:

I think the difference between a $ 900 RHS and $ 1200 TF head vs a $ 2000 comp AFR head would be in lines of literally 30-40 HP for a street car and could be 50 HP on a racecar that is running the cam and rpm necessary to show the benefits of a well done cnc ported better cylinder head.


agreed. Given RPM.


Quote:

BeachBum wrote:

As a note, the Trick Flows in this test probably cost more than the AFR's.... but I don't know. I do know I think the base head is around $ 1200-1300 and if they were thoroughly ported by a professional as stated by Josh's flow test guy, then there is a good chance they cost $ 2000 or more with total cost.


That's my point. Figure, the TFS heads are around $1100 from summit. Most guys are going to buy heads and use 'em.. Not have them ported at a huge expense. If they had the money they'd buy a better head.


Quote:

BeachBum wrote:

heads/rockers/cam/ etc modifications as well.


When building an engine, a "good cam" costs the same as a "great cam". Same with rockers. So that doesn't matter. You use full roller rockers because they are soo cheap it doesn't matter.


Quote:

BeachBum wrote:

I do not like the Vega analogy, I have heard that before..... it could be then said, why a Vega? why not a mini-cooper and then why not a motorcycle?..... before


Because old vega, nova, etc are cheap and fast. 2800lbs cars.


Quote:

BeachBum wrote:


My only point, in things like the cylinder head debates and other performance related debates, there is no right and wrong answer, its all about what you have and expect it to do..... My opinion, if you do not see the value in cylinder head porting, then don't do it..... its all good. But, if you see the value in spending $ 500-$1500 for cylinder head porting and gains ranging from 20 HP to literally 60+HP depending on your set-up then do it.... its all good.


It's not much of a debate, and I'm not taking porting into account.

I'm curious what the true value is going from a $800 head like a RHS or sportsman to a $1500 head like a AFR 195.

If the answer is 30hp, well, we can triple that for the same price different elsewhere.

-- Joe
Posted on: 2009/8/18 22:26
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BeachBum Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Hi Joe,

Fair enough on your post above.

On the $ 800 head like a Sportsman vs an AFR 195 street ports, I think it is dependant on which one, in my opinion, the RHS is a pretty good casting and head for the price, I know some have done some good things with them. But, I think the Sportsman has been passed up in the market. (I ran the Sportsman head for many years both out of the box and then ported).... great head in the 80's and early 90's, fast forward 10-20 years and its outdated I think.

But, the real difference is a cast cylinder head vs cnc ported head...... on a street head, against a casting like the Sportsman, I think the difference is a solid 30 HP, probably more. Against a better casting like the RHS or Dart head, the difference is more like 20-30 HP.... but these are rough guess's. The only valid recent test we have is the $ 1485 AFR 195 street port vs $ 1460 cast Dart Platinum Aluminum Cylinder heads, which are probably a step above these other castings due to some bowl blending.... but not sure. I am going out of memory, but I think the difference in those heads were 25 HP on an rpm limited street car. (Wes's test is what I am referencing that I think you can still see in the C1 section)

I know some will say that this test was biased due to cam selection...... but thats just not true, that test was a 195 vs 200 cc cylinder head test... both in the same class in size.... I have no idea how one cam would benefit the set-up more than the next anything substantial at all..... whatever cam changes made.....would benefit both quite frankly. Besides it was just an off the shelf comp cams 230/236 cam on a 112...... extremely common street/strip cam. That test was about as average as one could get for the your typical street/strip applications.

That test gives us a clue on the difference, thus yes its probably 25-30 over the RHS and a bit more vs the Sportsman is my "Guess"..... cuz I don't know anything for a fact, just bench racing. But, if you're spinning your motor up towards 7k and beyond, I think those gains can turn into considerably more.

I agree, if thats not worth it to you, you shouldn't do it..... Nitrous is cheaper short term and will work wonders as most know.

good luck with whatever you chose ! :thumbright:
Posted on: 2009/8/18 23:09
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88BlackZ51 Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Joe.

I am also looking for a deal on a TKO 600, but it certainly won't be easy. The guys that buy those, don't seem to sell them.

I bought those TFS heads a few years back. They were as cast, and were flowed on the EXACT same flow bench as my 195 Street Port AFR Eliminators.

I paid pretty much the exact price for both heads, and the AFR's outflowed the TFS heads by a country mile (especially on the exhaust side).

I don't have any performance #'s for those 2 cylinder heads Joe. I only have the flow numbers if you care.

But for me, If I have to spend an extra $400-$500 to gain another 25-35hp/20-30 tq, that's what they call a "no-brainer".

I had a set of the street ports, and sold them for the comp ports. The difference was about $500 in regards from selling and buying.

And yes, guys will spend $2000 on cylinder heads. I know a few who have the comp ports myself, and I am just one guy.


Let us know your decision.
Posted on: 2009/8/18 23:46
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TonyMamo Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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I posted this in another thread just a week or so ago that not coincidentally Joe (anesthes) was questioning the value inherent in spending more on AFR.

PLEASE take the time to read it and I think you will see the value a bit clearer if your open to spending more and getting more. If your not open to spending more and getting more my guess is it will never make sense and AFR perhaps is not a good fit for you. There is a product to fit everyone's budget thankfully and having options is always a good thing.

After reading the hypothetical but very real world cylinder head installs below, tell me where my logic is flawed if you believe that to be the case....

Thanks,
Tony
---------------------------------------------------------

Guys...

This is a long post so crack a beer and sit back. Its my last attempt to drive home the value inherent in our product.

We build/manufacture a premium part with premium lightweight components....based on tons of independent data we (arguably) clearly provide the best performance in our market segment. So I ask you....when is that not worthy of a premium in ANY manufacturing business??

We invest absurd amounts of time on the R&D side (which costs more than any of you can fathom) to stay on the cutting edge and give you ports 20+ cc's smaller than our competitors that outflow them in spite of it (and deliver a much more ferocious power curve because of it). We fully CNC these parts on million dollar equipment and cut VJ's into them with a machine that costs 200K versus 50K or less that most of our competitors use (you get perfect seat concentricity with the really expensive machine). Our valve guide tolerance is held to .0001 when we have seen new budget heads that I would consider the guides used up right out of the box. Walk a few miles in our shoes and I assure you a better appreciation of the product we are building for you.

Also, the way some of you guys want to casually dismiss the HP difference that the few hundred extra we charge is worth is absolutely penny wise and dollar foolish. Go find those types of gains elsewhere with the money you saved....good luck with that. I sell power for a living and once you already have a heads cam car with a few of the basic goodies you just don't fall into 30 and 40 horses anymore...in fact it costs a bunch of money to find those types of gains once your not dealing with an anemic stocker any longer....ask the hardcore more engine savvy amongst you and believe me they will back me on this.

All our street ported heads when the smoke clears may cost on average about $300-$400 more than our competitors budget (mainly as cast) products....with you benefiting from everything highlighted a few paragraphs above in the event you spring for the AFR's).

I know this post is long but follow along if you would....

Take a stock longblock with a cam and headers and install budget head "B" that cost $1100.....you pick up 30-35 HP

Now thru one of our dealers you pick up an AFR street head for $1400 and you pick up 70 HP or even 60 to be conservative but my first number is more in line with the reality of the swap, especially in a hyd. roller combo.

Take the same engine and now purchase a comp ported AFR head for $2000 and now you found 75-80 HP gains.

What most of you never consider with the swap (and always should) is what did the entire swap actually cost with gaskets included, labor, tuning time, and other incidentals. It makes my argument even more lopsided and applicable.

Lets just add $500 to the head cost (those paying someone to install this stuff would fair far worse than this)

Budget head....$1600 total.....$53 per pony
AFR Street.....$1900 total.....$32 per pony (and alot more of them)
AFR Comp.......$2500 total.....$33 per pony (surprise there I bet)

Note I used the more conservative 60 and 75 figures for both AFR comparos in this exercise.

Soooo.....does it make more sense to "save up" and get all the quality benefits of the AFR's, the extra power, and the added value in HP per dollar when purchasing our product??

For the guy that "doesn't want to wait" or cant justify the added expense I say Im sorry....thats really not a wise move when you consider the main reason your buying cylinder heads in the first place (and likely other parts in the future to try and find more power). It is foolish for lack of a better word to leave all that added value and extra power under the table now....even the Comp AFR product provides a ton more VALUE (and a BUNCH of power over the typical budget piece).

And btw....also coming from my seat where I live and breathe this stuff everyday and talk to easily 100 enthusiasts a month.....you guys have no clue how many guys looking to save those few bucks the first time come back to see us six months, a year, two years later when they are tired of getting beat or tired of AFR headed cars on the dyno smashing the numbers their combo managed to eek out. Then they sell their used budget head for 40 cents on the dollar.....ultimately buy the AFR's they should have bought in the first place....and spend twice on gaskets and install labor. THATS the biggest irony I see with guys that look for the shortcut to save a few bucks....in the long run it ends up costing twice as much to do it right. And if you think Im making that scenario up think again....I speak to a half dozen people a month in this situation and some are more butt hurt about it than others ultimately knowing they have themselves to blame for making the wrong moves. We have all been there, perhaps not in auto related purchase, but something we purchased in an effort to save a few bucks and it ultimately cost us more....I know I have and try to learn from the experience.

And name a cylinder head company that offers better customer service than AFR....there must be a dozen reasons to buy our heads besides that it simply makes perfect sense from a value and economics standpoint but I can only lead the horse to water as they say....the rest is up to the horse.

Im all typed out....I hope I have reached a few of this with this retarded long post....catch you guys later

-Tony

EDIT: After posting this I just read Beach Bum's post above mine and I think he got the same point across as I in two paragraphs....LOL
Posted on: 2009/8/19 0:35
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anesthes Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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BeachBum wrote:
Hi Joe,

Fair enough on your post above.

On the $ 800 head like a Sportsman vs an AFR 195 street ports, I think it is dependant on which one, in my opinion, the RHS is a pretty good casting and head for the price, I know some have done some good things with them. But, I think the Sportsman has been passed up in the market. (I ran the Sportsman head for many years both out of the box and then ported).... great head in the 80's and early 90's, fast forward 10-20 years and its outdated I think.

But, the real difference is a cast cylinder head vs cnc ported head...... on a street head, against a casting like the Sportsman, I think the difference is a solid 30 HP, probably more. Against a better casting like the RHS or Dart head, the difference is more like 20-30 HP.... but these are rough guess's. The only valid recent test we have is the $ 1485 AFR 195 street port vs $ 1460 cast Dart Platinum Aluminum Cylinder heads, which are probably a step above these other castings due to some bowl blending.... but not sure. I am going out of memory, but I think the difference in those heads were 25 HP on an rpm limited street car. (Wes's test is what I am referencing that I think you can still see in the C1 section)

I know some will say that this test was biased due to cam selection...... but thats just not true, that test was a 195 vs 200 cc cylinder head test... both in the same class in size.... I have no idea how one cam would benefit the set-up more than the next anything substantial at all..... whatever cam changes made.....would benefit both quite frankly. Besides it was just an off the shelf comp cams 230/236 cam on a 112...... extremely common street/strip cam. That test was about as average as one could get for the your typical street/strip applications.

That test gives us a clue on the difference, thus yes its probably 25-30 over the RHS and a bit more vs the Sportsman is my "Guess"..... cuz I don't know anything for a fact, just bench racing. But, if you're spinning your motor up towards 7k and beyond, I think those gains can turn into considerably more.

I agree, if thats not worth it to you, you shouldn't do it..... Nitrous is cheaper short term and will work wonders as most know.

good luck with whatever you chose ! :thumbright:


Sounds good brother. I agree with everything you said, and your estimates are probably spot on.

I'm looking at shifting around 6200 MAX on my 412, not spinning it at 7k.

I can see where an AFR head might outright spank another head due to a cam profile favoring higher lift where the AFR shines. But still, I was figuring around 30-35hp between the two.

You know, I've always been one to build supercharged engines. So for this car I started thinking build a big cube naturally aspirated motor. But you know, looking at the numbers. It takes a lot of agressive cam, and a hell of a cylinder head to push 550 flywheel horsepower.

However, a fairly mild cam, moderate heads, and 15psi of boost will produce the same thing potentially cheaper..


I agree on the sportsman comment. I was just using it for comparison sake. ya know, if my 355 sportsman headed motor in a 3600lbs car could trap 120, I'd think the AFR's would have much more edge.. But for 2-3mph it's not quite as worth it. (to me)

-- Joe
Posted on: 2009/8/19 1:14
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anesthes Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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88BlackZ51 wrote:
Joe.

I am also looking for a deal on a TKO 600, but it certainly won't be easy. The guys that buy those, don't seem to sell them.


I hear ya. Originally I was going to put a T10 in the car, but browsing the forums everyone in the 12s blows 'em up. If your lucky the parts fly off DOWN not up.

Then looked at the T56 swap, but you have to cut out some of the cars structure.

Then the TKO. Wow what a transmission! But ya know, I went back to fbody for a few reasons. One of which was economics. Between a mortgage, and horses that cost around $500 / month to feed, and building a garage (1/2 way done) I can't justify spending 20k on this car. As it is', it's gonna be a $1500 car with a $5,000 engine.

Quote:

88BlackZ51 wrote:


I bought those TFS heads a few years back. They were as cast, and were flowed on the EXACT same flow bench as my 195 Street Port AFR Eliminators.

I paid pretty much the exact price for both heads, and the AFR's outflowed the TFS heads by a country mile (especially on the exhaust side).

I don't have any performance #'s for those 2 cylinder heads Joe. I only have the flow numbers if you care.


I've seen the same thing. The TFS is a good cheap head, but we know it's not an AFR. And for a few hundred bucks, it probably makes sense to go with the AFR over the TFS. The last time I bought a pair of TFS heads, you just couldn't get your hands on AFR unless you wanted to wait 6 months for shipping. But you know, I'm looking at things now saying "well can we give up a little on the heads, and make it up here..".


Quote:

88BlackZ51 wrote:

But for me, If I have to spend an extra $400-$500 to gain another 25-35hp/20-30 tq, that's what they call a "no-brainer".


Nothing wrong with that. I just don't have the car budget I used to.

Quote:

88BlackZ51 wrote:


And yes, guys will spend $2000 on cylinder heads. I know a few who have the comp ports myself, and I am just one guy.



Some guys will. Agreed. But a lot of guys get sticker shock over the price..

-- Joe
Posted on: 2009/8/19 1:21
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anesthes Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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TonyMamo wrote:
I posted this in another thread just a week or so ago that not coincidentally Joe (anesthes) was questioning the value inherent in spending more on AFR.


First off, I think your starting to feel like I'm personally attacking AFR.. I'm not. I'd love your heads. I'd also love a new truck, but I don't have $46k to spend on a new F350, so my Dodge will have to do for another year.


In regards to numbers and such, yes I think BeachBum did hit it on the head. And he's pretty much saying the exact thing I said, no? AFR probably has a 30 or so hp advantage over a head that's about $600 cheaper.

Now I need to interrupt your huge technical post to point out a few things. First, we're not starting off with a "stocker" so let's not inflate our gains. And let's ignore the gaskets and tuning time and all that nonsense, because thats part of the overall project costs. Let's just compare heads and final result. What is the split between the final result.

So rather than saying AFR is $32 per pony, vs el cheapo at $53 per pony lets look at it this way.

AFR 195, roughly $1500
RHS 220, roughly $900

$600 for roughly 35 (I'll give you 35) hp gain.

I'm taking TFS out of the equation, because the RHS 220 actually flow better than the TFS heads and are cheaper.


Obviously to some of these guys, $600 is worth $35.

It's a bit much for me to swallow.

There were some other things I brought up to you before, which make matters worse. Your heads have 65cc chambers, which will reduce compression by a small amount. Not to mention it's hard to compare both heads since the thermal properties are different. I'd think to compare a 64cc iron head to an AFR, you would really have to mill the thing to 60cc to make up the loss. That adds another few hundred to the cost.

I'd really LOVE to see a test between a 64cc RHS iron head, and a 65cc AFR elim.. I'd be curious to see if the slight drop in compression, and thermal loss makes up for the power gains of the better airflow/design.

-- Joe
Posted on: 2009/8/19 1:37
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TonyMamo Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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OK Joe,

Buy your RHS and I will provide the 195 for the testing...Im not even kidding.

Im doing my best to show you the value here and I hope you can appreciate that. I dont think your badmouthing our product....Im just frustrated I cant seem to get thru.

If you did the swap, I think the difference could be greater than 35 HP in my opinion, but even if it were not, the gains past peak compared to your RHS build would be 55 - 60 HP. What is that worth?

BUT....even at 35 HP peak, just for one last fun exercise with the numbers, the additional money spent for the AFR's($600) breaks down to costing you only $17 per pony (thats like foreclosure prices on horsepower).

Once your at this level (a good heads cam car with headers, cold air intake, etc,) please show me where your money can be better placed to pick up those 35 ponies you just left under the table at $17 a piece.

Im serious....show me where you go next to find that type of power and how much will it cost you??

If you picked up a total of 35 HP from the RHS swap (a stretch with a $900 as cast head), you paid $40 plus per pony for the first 35.....why would you leave double that figure under the table for less than half the price of the first admission.....that's penny wise and dollar foolish.

V-A-L-U-E.....you have to look at the bigger picture to grasp it and the fact real racers or anyone hooked on the horsepower bug always look for more....its just a matter of time. When you do, you will kick yourself in the azzz for leaving what you did (at the price you did) by not purchasing the better heads.

GUYS....AM I MAKING ANY SENSE??

My work here is done....Josh, bring us some good news will you!....LOL

Cheers,
Tony
Posted on: 2009/8/19 2:18
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Matatk Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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TonyMamo wrote:

V-A-L-U-E.....you have to look at the bigger picture to grasp it and the fact real racers or anyone hooked on the horsepower bug always look for more....its just a matter of time. When you do, you will kick yourself in the azzz for leaving what you did (at the price you did) by not purchasing the better heads.

GUYS....AM I MAKING ANY SENSE??

My work here is done....Josh, bring us some good news will you!....LOL

Cheers,
Tony


Tony,

I don't believe Joe is knocking your heads in the least bit. I understand what he's saying 100%. It's like when I posted about how my setup when I'm done will be big tube runners and ported plenum, and I heard "switch to a miniram/superram". Well, I have a budget and know what I can spend. $400 for BTR setup or $1300 for SR. Would I gain more HP with a SR? Sure. Of course I would. Is it worth it to *me personally*? No. Same with the heads. I'd love some AFR 195s. But it's not gonna happen. I will have my budget rebuilt 113s for under $500. Makes a big difference to me at the end of the day. I'm just an average Joe, I drive my vette everyday around town. For the hardcore racer - sure get the best you can. For a regular guy, work within your means.

Matthew
Posted on: 2009/8/19 3:38
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Steve40th Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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AFR heads are no doubt great. My only problems with all these threads, that get heated, is there is no real data.
A simple test would be dyno these heads on a engine dyno, using same throttle body, compression, cam, manifold and tuning.
That being said, all these heads are different and require different cams, compression, manifolds and throttle bodies etc to perform at there design level.
My 396 LT1 runs 119 mph consitently, well prior to the track closing. It has old LT1 heads cnc ported by a company CNC prom Florida. I use LT 1 3/4 headers, Vigilante 2800 converter, 3.75 gears, and MT ET streets and shift at 6500 manually second to third only. My cam, off the shelf 230/236 112+2 LSA and 544in 555 ex. Standard street engine, to an extent.
So, If I could get AFR's, I need a new manifold? Heads angle milled to meet my 11to1 comp, a new camshaft to match the head, and a retune. Maybe even change my 12 year old Flowmaster cat back. SOrry to babble, but there is more to a fast and quick car than heads. Its a package!
Posted on: 2009/8/19 6:06
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anesthes Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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TonyMamo wrote:
OK Joe,

Im doing my best to show you the value here and I hope you can appreciate that. I dont think your badmouthing our product....Im just frustrated I cant seem to get thru.


I understand that, but you are not seeing it from my point of view.. see:

Quote:

TonyMamo wrote:


Im serious....show me where you go next to find that type of power and how much will it cost you??

If you picked up a total of 35 HP from the RHS swap (a stretch with a $900 as cast head), you paid $40 plus per pony for the first 35.....why would you leave double that figure under the table for less than half the price of the first admission.....that's penny wise and dollar foolish.



AFR heads, $1500, 75hp over stock - $1500 or $20 per hp

RHS heads, $900, NOS-07001NOS 150 shot, $388, 185 hp over stock - $1288 or $6.96 per hp.

RHS heads, $900, Used S-trim 15psi w/ hat $1200, 185 hp over stock - $2100 or $11.35 per hp


regarding s-trim: An s-trim with a 8" crank pulley, and a 3.33" blower pulley will push around 15psi on a small block, and add around 150hp. Average price for a used head unit is $600-800, figure a few hundred for a bracket, pulleys and belt.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VORTEC ... uckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories


-- Joe

-- Joe
Posted on: 2009/8/19 10:31
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anesthes Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads
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Matatk wrote:

It's like when I posted about how my setup when I'm done will be big tube runners and ported plenum, and I heard "switch to a miniram/superram". Well, I have a budget and know what I can spend. $400 for BTR setup or $1300 for SR. Would I gain more HP with a SR? Sure. Of course I would. Is it worth it to *me personally*? No.


Funny thing about that.

If you review posts from me from around 2002-2003 on thirdgen.org, I did a lot of testing with intakes. (I'm the EFI intake moderator).

I ran stock TPI, aftermarket TPI, then ported TPI.

Car was running 110mph with the ported aftermarket TPI.

I swapped in a singleplane EFI intake that I made, with a monoblade throttle body. Made no other changes to the car, other than re-dial in the fuel ratio for the new intake. Car picked up 10mph, and now was trapping 119-120 mph.

I think I had like. $250 into the intake.

Why was there such a huge increase?

My guess would be the long tube intake was holding me back. 224/230 degree cam, pulled to 6,000 RPM. Out of scope for a TPI intake, car probably just made SO much more power from 4500-6000 RPM, it showed up on the timeslip.

Would you see that on a stock cam? No way. The LTR vs miniram and all that is geared more towards final combos. Guys putting minirams on stock heads and cams are not going to make much more if any power.


-- Joe
Posted on: 2009/8/19 11:05
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