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| mseven | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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I've been following this thread and still think it has value ....that includes prices for the afr's. The reason I say that is not because I own an older 190 comp version but it is based on comparing to other known big flow heads. The other heads I've seen that are a known commodity sell for considerably more than the afr stuff, and very little if any better numbers.
Beach mentioned Joe Sherman, I have seen his numbers as well as some other known builders who attain big SBC hp numbers. My problem with some of those builders is the use of words like "street" motors, yet they are cammed to the moon. I know at a certain point typically once around the 10 sec. mark (NA), cost kicks up for very little track gains.....of course, now we are in age of power adders and there are many around here who have legit low 9 sec. 10" tire street driven cars. So as always, it becomes how fast you want to go and are you willing to spend the $$ to get there. As far as Josh doing this race...maybe I'll have to come down and see...wild man ain't afraid of throwin' some hose at it..lol |
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Posted on: 2009/8/19 14:06
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| dan0617 | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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Joe,
I debated this same thing you are debating. I went with the AFR's and I'm sure glad I did. Here is my suggestion for your setup and pathway to my logic: If you plan on staying with the 1205 sized intake, AFR 195 streets is your only option IMO. The 195 comp ports are 1206 sized and very pricey for a budget minded non-bracket racer, and then you need to swap intakes too. And for the competition to AFR, I can't think of any other head that is 1205 sized and will come close to feeding your cubes without strangling you out of a bunch of horsepower when the revvs are up towards the top. I also can't think of a better way to maintain good street manners than the AFR's because the 195's flow about what other manufacturers 210's flow, and the AFR combustion chamber design WILL allow for a higher compression ratio which again aids in street manners and in horsepower. I think your debate would be a tough call if you were running a 1206 sized intake but with the 1205 sized intake and the cubes you are running and the revs you are looking at running, I think the 195 streets are the way to go for you. I also think that if and when you do spray a shot of nitrous the AFR's will outshine the competition even more due to the exceptional exhaust flow. A 412 and a 150 to 200 shot is going to need a lot of exhaust flow. If spray is in the plans I'd run a 112 or 113 lsa cam, with a 10 degree (at least a 6 degree) intake/exhaust duration split. That said, I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the torque and horsepower figures. |
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Posted on: 2009/8/19 18:21
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| dan0617 | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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Your whole plan is "out the window" because my back window is plastic and the brick will just bounce off and go through your windshield and break your right hand and you won't be able to shift. Then I'll have to install an auto and set up the governor for you so you can still race me.  Quote:
Time will tell for both of us, but as of now I ran a 131, but since then I upped the nitrous another 25, richened up the AFR so the ground straps don't melt off like they did on the 131 pass (who knows how much that hurt the ET and MPH), and fixed a few other things, and the rings finally seated. I think I'll get a 133 or possibly push a 134 now. Don't forget (as if I'd let you) that it's an auto Same car with a stick would likely mph 138 to 140 as sticks always mph quite a bit higher. So I think we will be closer than you think. I have a feeling I'm going to get beat by just a little until I do a D44 swap and get a decent set of gears in there (crossing the line at WAY too low of an rpm with the converter locked and can't unlock it in 3rd when spraying or it blows through the converter). At that point I'll again be handing you your ass. Well I say again, but you have yet to hand me my ass so for now I guess I should say I'll still be handing you your ass.  See, am I not the best motivational support you have ever had for you to get your car done and dialed in?? |
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Posted on: 2009/8/19 18:48
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| BeachBum | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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I think it had validity too.... considering we are going to see the difference between a 300 cfm 195 cc head vs a 280 cfm 205 cc head..... very interesting and I think its what real hotrodders do.... test the stuff, lay it all out for people to come to their own conclusion. I think it is interesting.... I also like the sideshow of Josh vs Dan..... which is intereting in itself.... stick vs auto royale battle !!:tongue: .... good fun, just kinda wish I lived within 1000 miles from them, I'd play too. With the Joe Sherman cams.... yeah, I do not consider most of his engines very streetable, I used him as reference only on the extreme differences between set-ups.... his name came to my mind because of the legendary big hairy camshafts he prefers. |
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Posted on: 2009/8/19 20:30
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| BeachBum | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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LOL.... |
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Posted on: 2009/8/19 20:31
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| BeachBum | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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btw, Dan, is your rear window really plastic ? Can you tell me more about it if it is....
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Posted on: 2009/8/19 20:31
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863 cubic inches of C4 & C6 muscle C6 Corvette Z06 - Lemans Metallic Blue C4 Corvette 436 - Pure Black http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3933547 ... chevrolet-corvette/page-1 |
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| mseven | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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BeachBum wrote: I hear you and he's not the only one, Reher and Sonny seem to have similar ideas. My guess is that potential customers look at and want big numbers. In the past I have tried to street drive some pretty big cams. Typically the issue wasn't just manners, as a sloppy 5k conv. gear etc. kind of got around some problems, but was always limited drive time due to heat. Biggest that I actually drove on the street in a bbm was a 282@50 695 lift 107 cl. mushroom tappet. With everything possibly done drive time was around 25 min., providing you didn't mash the pedal....then through decell temps were at 240 and gaining. |
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Posted on: 2009/8/20 11:30
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| dan0617 | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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It is, but my car is a 'vert. I never saw a stock 'vert top in person to see what the back window is made of. My top was replaced by the previous owner, it's a black cloth top and the back window is clear plastic. I really like the top. |
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Posted on: 2009/8/20 13:20
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| tpi421vett | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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Dan, I would bet you would surprise some people youself running 10's with a stock looking Vert!
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Posted on: 2009/8/21 23:46
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AFR Dealer, can sell at prices too low to advertise. 801-953-6391 08 C6 LS3,3LT,Z51,A6,NPP 91 vette,450ci, AFR 220, miniram,FAST, Crane 252/260 solid roller, 200 shot nos, ZF6, 4 link, 9", DA corrected to 1300 ft 9.65@145.xx 450ci now with AFR 235... |
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| dan0617 | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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That is exactly what I was going for when I put the car together. I will never bracket race it or anything, just wanted to keep it all stock looking and run fast, and even faster at the flip of a switch. To date the car is still 100% bone stock appearing on the outside except for stock LT1 exhaust tips instead of L98 tips, and the drag radials. Inside it is stock appearing except for the stereo and rear speakers and the bottle. Under the hood, different story! |
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Posted on: 2009/8/22 16:00
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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I bet it doesnt sound stock? |
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Posted on: 2009/8/23 1:29
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| jonecap | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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Very cool! I like stock looking sleepers. I'm surprised the Dana 33 is holding up.  |
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Posted on: 2009/8/23 12:43
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'02 Z06 - 11.58 @ 117.40 CAI & ET Streets only... Sold but not forgotten: '96 CE LT4 11.65 @ 118.76 LT4 hotcam, gears, tires, and exhaust 10.72 @ 128.90 on the jug ;) '90 Z51 6 speed- 13.10 @ 105.07 with lots of... |
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| dan0617 | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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It just sounds like it has a nice exhaust system, and to the talented ear you can hear the higher compression. You would be amazed at how quiet it is at part throttle and idle. Josh....how are you making out so far?? |
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Posted on: 2009/8/23 19:24
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| Josh | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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Relatives in town this weekend, dyno appointment for Tuesday night though.
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Posted on: 2009/8/23 20:45
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"Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton |
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| dan0617 | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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Relatives can turn wrenches I've learned. And the ones that can't make for good moral support when fed beer, while you are turning the wrenches! |
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Posted on: 2009/8/24 20:51
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| 1989GTA | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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Thanks for the update. The results will be interesting.
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Posted on: 2009/8/25 0:31
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| TonyMamo | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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Hopefully this is still in the works.... I assume you are heading back to the same facility and will be playing with fuel and timing to optimize the combo....it may have slightly different likes and dislikes than the last combo you tuned there. Looking forward to the results Josh.....it was a long road to get here!! Cheers, Tony PS....I just realized I have officially been upgraded to "Guru" status in my post count.....LOL  |
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Posted on: 2009/8/25 17:40
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| Matatk | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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Don't let it go to your head, we're still deciding if you know anything about heads yet  Matthew |
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Posted on: 2009/8/25 21:01
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| dan0617 | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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Yeah Tony, if it is decided you know what you are talking about your status will change to "Senior Guru" If it is decided you are clueless, your status will change to "Moderator"  |
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Posted on: 2009/8/25 22:25
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| Matatk | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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Yeah, like Tommy....sheesh.... TWO POINTS! Matthew |
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Posted on: 2009/8/25 22:48
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| 1989GTA | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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Here we are Tuesday night. I assume they are working late at the dyno session.
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Posted on: 2009/8/26 3:44
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| PeteK | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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Ouch!! |
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Posted on: 2009/8/26 10:33
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"It was really on a pass until it came apart." "Yeah. They always are." |
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| anesthes | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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Master Guru
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On the 195 eliminators, based on chamber design and thermal properties, what is a target DCR you like to attempt to achieve? And, do you normally use the IVC at .050" + 15 method to calc DCR, or do you go by the advertised IVC (at .006" or whatever the cam mfg sets it at) ? Cam I'm looking at has 44 on the IVC at .050", so add 15 that gives 59 - using the KB calculator static is 10.16 and dynamic is 8.5, using advertised IVC of 63 and we get a dynamic of 8.2. Both of which seem kinda lame for an alum head combo. Camquest seems to think the combo will be 530 or so hp, and the same torque (afr heads, 412, solid roller 236/242 that you and I discussed). Some of the guys seem to be running DCR's in the low 9s with the AFR 195s.. What do you think, tony? Keep in mind, this is going to be running 93 octane. I have absolutely ZERO desire to mix additives and become a chemist. Also, my pistons are down .010" in the hole. I had assumed I could get a .030-.035" head gasket in a 4.200" bore, which as a poor assumption. I didn't realize all the thin gaskets are only 4.166" and smaller bore, so I might be screwed on quench..  See attached. -- Joe Attach file:  dcr-050.JPG (84.85 KB) dcr-adv.JPG (85.29 KB) |
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Posted on: 2009/8/26 12:23
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| TonyMamo | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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Joe,
This thread is longer than it needs to be already with countless weeks/months of anticipation concerning Josh's results. I would view your question above as a separate thread perhaps or a PM....lets try and keep this on topic. In short, I don't believe in all the DCR calcs and pick cams based on real world experience. The problem with the calcs as you already pointed out is the number of different conclusions based on which one you decide to use. Its no different than all the different dyno simulation programs....they are as good as the software allows them to be and the knowledge of the program designer which is a dubious source. They are fun tools and I place the emphasis more on "fun". Take the plunge on the AFR's and call me prior to plunking down a credit card payment on a cam....I will guide you into an effective piece once I have a better feel of your goals and objectives which quite frankly is best handled on a 5-10 minute phone call. -Tony |
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Posted on: 2009/8/27 1:12
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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When are we going to be able to compare the 2 dyno graphs?
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Posted on: 2009/8/27 14:28
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| Weavsvet | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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Have I missed something? Were the results posted yet?
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Posted on: 2009/8/31 19:31
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1996 Corvette Coupe,AFR 195 street Eliminators,Edelbrock LT4 Air Gap intake manifold,9.5" 2800 stall,TPIS LT headers,Bullet 226/230.565.565/111 lsa cam,1.7 Scorpion rr's,EWP, X Pipe, Stock Exhaust,Elec.Cutouts,Dana 44/3.45, Tune by Wester's Garage |
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| 1989GTA | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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Hey Josh, the natives are restless.
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Posted on: 2009/8/31 19:49
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| BrianCunningham | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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1479 views!
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Posted on: 2009/8/31 21:00
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| Weavsvet | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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5380 on the other thread. Jeez.......
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Posted on: 2009/8/31 21:03
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1996 Corvette Coupe,AFR 195 street Eliminators,Edelbrock LT4 Air Gap intake manifold,9.5" 2800 stall,TPIS LT headers,Bullet 226/230.565.565/111 lsa cam,1.7 Scorpion rr's,EWP, X Pipe, Stock Exhaust,Elec.Cutouts,Dana 44/3.45, Tune by Wester's Garage |
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| Josh | Re: Driving impressions with the AFR heads | ||
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Posted on: 2009/9/1 0:06
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"Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton |
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