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#1
TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
CentralCoaster
Posted on: 2009/1/9 16:16
Does anybody have back to back comparisons on either of these?
I recall the low end of a TPI and LT1 being nearly identical, yet everyone seems to think the TPI is superior there. I'm not convinced.
I recall the low end of a TPI and LT1 being nearly identical, yet everyone seems to think the TPI is superior there. I'm not convinced.
#2
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
cuisinartvette
Posted on: 2009/1/9 17:25
Thinking of doing a conversion?
#3
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
anesthes
Posted on: 2009/1/9 18:31
Quote:
What do you think will have more low end a 400hp miniram combo or a 240hp stock L98?
To answer your question, Mike Davis did some back to back testing that may help:
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/winter01/dyno/
Mike's a nice guy too if you need to ask him questions.
-- Joe
CentralCoaster wrote:
Does anybody have back to back comparisons on either of these?
I recall the low end of a TPI and LT1 being nearly identical, yet everyone seems to think the TPI is superior there. I'm not convinced.
What do you think will have more low end a 400hp miniram combo or a 240hp stock L98?
To answer your question, Mike Davis did some back to back testing that may help:
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/winter01/dyno/
Mike's a nice guy too if you need to ask him questions.
-- Joe
#4
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
anesthes
Posted on: 2009/1/9 18:32
Quote:
How do you guys in CA get away with things like that? I thought if your car doesn't pass smog they lock you up and make you listen to Al Gore presentations?
-- Joe
cuisinartvette wrote:
Thinking of doing a conversion?
How do you guys in CA get away with things like that? I thought if your car doesn't pass smog they lock you up and make you listen to Al Gore presentations?
-- Joe
#5
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
BrianCunningham
Posted on: 2009/1/9 18:34
LT1 vs TPI
http://lt1intake.com/files/dyno_Samuli.htm
LT1 vs superram
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech ... conversion_ls1/index.html
http://lt1intake.com/files/dyno_Samuli.htm
LT1 vs superram
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech ... conversion_ls1/index.html
#6
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
Aardwolf
Posted on: 2009/1/9 19:00
Quote:
I remember a thread from CF awhile back:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-ge ... 5-l98-torque-monster.html
Same numbers yeah, I'd rather have an LT1.
CentralCoaster wrote:
Does anybody have back to back comparisons on either of these?
I recall the low end of a TPI and LT1 being nearly identical, yet everyone seems to think the TPI is superior there. I'm not convinced.
I remember a thread from CF awhile back:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-ge ... 5-l98-torque-monster.html
Same numbers yeah, I'd rather have an LT1.
#7
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
1989GTA
Posted on: 2009/1/9 20:23
Now with a modified TPI you get the best of both worlds.
#8
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
BeachBum
Posted on: 2009/1/9 20:51
Quote:
I think that is a pretty good article, thanks for sharing.
I think what is more important is the performance, which they show at the end of the article as below.
Track Results
............SR........LT1
R/T........0.609.... 0.561
60'........1.962.... 2.027
330'.......5.508.... 5.588
1/8........8.396.... 8.467
MPH........86.11.... 86.14
1,000'.....10.866... 10.921
1/4........12.947... 12.994
MPH........108.14... 108.43
The above is pretty much what I saw with the comparison vs the Miniram, but mine was a bit more et difference, which was probably due to my automatic application. They used a T56 manual with the above test as per the article.
BrianCunningham wrote:
LT1 vs TPI
http://lt1intake.com/files/dyno_Samuli.htm
LT1 vs superram
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech ... conversion_ls1/index.html
I think that is a pretty good article, thanks for sharing.
I think what is more important is the performance, which they show at the end of the article as below.
Track Results
............SR........LT1
R/T........0.609.... 0.561
60'........1.962.... 2.027
330'.......5.508.... 5.588
1/8........8.396.... 8.467
MPH........86.11.... 86.14
1,000'.....10.866... 10.921
1/4........12.947... 12.994
MPH........108.14... 108.43
The above is pretty much what I saw with the comparison vs the Miniram, but mine was a bit more et difference, which was probably due to my automatic application. They used a T56 manual with the above test as per the article.
#9
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
BeachBum
Posted on: 2009/1/9 20:58
Quote:
The long tube TPI is superior in off-idle torque than the LT-1..... it'll make literally 40 more ftlbs down at 2500-3000 rpm...... but it sacrifices to much rpm to do it..... hence the LT-1 is drastically superior to the TPI long tube runner set-ups in my opinion.
For stock motors, the actual peaks are probably similar at close to 350 or whatever, but they occur 1000 rpm apart.
The Superram is a different animal though, it'll give you an extra 500-1000 rpm over the stock TPI....and yet only give away a little torque off-idle, but makes up for it and then some by 4000 rpm.
CentralCoaster wrote:
Does anybody have back to back comparisons on either of these?
I recall the low end of a TPI and LT1 being nearly identical, yet everyone seems to think the TPI is superior there. I'm not convinced.
The long tube TPI is superior in off-idle torque than the LT-1..... it'll make literally 40 more ftlbs down at 2500-3000 rpm...... but it sacrifices to much rpm to do it..... hence the LT-1 is drastically superior to the TPI long tube runner set-ups in my opinion.
For stock motors, the actual peaks are probably similar at close to 350 or whatever, but they occur 1000 rpm apart.
The Superram is a different animal though, it'll give you an extra 500-1000 rpm over the stock TPI....and yet only give away a little torque off-idle, but makes up for it and then some by 4000 rpm.
#10
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
CentralCoaster
Posted on: 2009/1/9 21:25
Quote:
I don't really care about the superram.
The reason I ask is I see stock LT1s constantly putting down 300 ftlbs of torque at 2000 rpm, and is flat as a pancake too.
So I'm wondering how the TPI can possibly beat that.
92 LT1 with no mufflers and SLP chip:
http://www.lt1.net/images/vette/c4dyno.jpg
95 LT1 Firebird with catback (see lowest line):
http://www.lt1.net/images/dyno.jpg
95 LT1 with long tubes and chip:
http://www.dragtimes.com/images_dyno/ ... evrolet-Corvette-Dyno.jpg
BeachBum wrote:
The long tube TPI is superior in off-idle torque than the LT-1..... it'll make literally 40 more ftlbs down at 2500-3000 rpm...... but it sacrifices to much rpm to do it..... hence the LT-1 is drastically superior to the TPI long tube runner set-ups in my opinion.
I don't really care about the superram.
The reason I ask is I see stock LT1s constantly putting down 300 ftlbs of torque at 2000 rpm, and is flat as a pancake too.
So I'm wondering how the TPI can possibly beat that.
92 LT1 with no mufflers and SLP chip:
http://www.lt1.net/images/vette/c4dyno.jpg
95 LT1 Firebird with catback (see lowest line):
http://www.lt1.net/images/dyno.jpg
95 LT1 with long tubes and chip:
http://www.dragtimes.com/images_dyno/ ... evrolet-Corvette-Dyno.jpg
#11
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
CentralCoaster
Posted on: 2009/1/9 21:33
Quote:
That's disappointing.
Had the launch and 60' times been equal, the LT1 would have actually had a better ET in the 1/4. You can see after the 60' mark, it actually caught up to the superram a bit.
BrianCunningham wrote:
Track Results
............SR........LT1
R/T........0.609.... 0.561
60'........1.962.... 2.027
330'.......5.508.... 5.588
1/8........8.396.... 8.467
MPH........86.11.... 86.14
1,000'.....10.866... 10.921
1/4........12.947... 12.994
MPH........108.14... 108.43
The above is pretty much what I saw with the comparison vs the Miniram, but mine was a bit more et difference, which was probably due to my automatic application. They used a T56 manual with the above test as per the article.
That's disappointing.
Had the launch and 60' times been equal, the LT1 would have actually had a better ET in the 1/4. You can see after the 60' mark, it actually caught up to the superram a bit.
#12
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
patgizz
Posted on: 2009/1/9 22:07
the LT1intake.com test is apples/oranges.
#13
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
BeachBum
Posted on: 2009/1/9 22:18
Quote:
I don't think this is exactly what you're looking for, but its the best I can help you. It does kind of give a good idea of what the two torque curves look like like considering the LT-1 produces a torque curve similar to the Miniram intake, with that, these two superimposed dyno graphs show the difference in torque between the two styles. The motor is a 383 with somewhere around a 236/242 cam. These were both done on the same motor & dyno.
[IMG]http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/cc342/tldrane/TPIvsMR.jpg[/IMG]
CentralCoaster wrote:
Quote:
BeachBum wrote:
The long tube TPI is superior in off-idle torque than the LT-1..... it'll make literally 40 more ftlbs down at 2500-3000 rpm...... but it sacrifices to much rpm to do it..... hence the LT-1 is drastically superior to the TPI long tube runner set-ups in my opinion.
I don't really care about the superram.
The reason I ask is I see stock LT1s constantly putting down 300 ftlbs of torque at 2000 rpm, and is flat as a pancake too.
So I'm wondering how the TPI can possibly beat that.
92 LT1 with no mufflers and SLP chip:
http://www.lt1.net/images/vette/c4dyno.jpg
95 LT1 Firebird with catback (see lowest line):
http://www.lt1.net/images/dyno.jpg
95 LT1 with long tubes and chip:
http://www.dragtimes.com/images_dyno/ ... evrolet-Corvette-Dyno.jpg
I don't think this is exactly what you're looking for, but its the best I can help you. It does kind of give a good idea of what the two torque curves look like like considering the LT-1 produces a torque curve similar to the Miniram intake, with that, these two superimposed dyno graphs show the difference in torque between the two styles. The motor is a 383 with somewhere around a 236/242 cam. These were both done on the same motor & dyno.
[IMG]http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/cc342/tldrane/TPIvsMR.jpg[/IMG]
#14
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
BeachBum
Posted on: 2009/1/9 22:19
Quote:
In my opinion, on slicks with equal launches, the difference in et would be greater.
CentralCoaster wrote:
Quote:
BrianCunningham wrote:
Track Results
............SR........LT1
R/T........0.609.... 0.561
60'........1.962.... 2.027
330'.......5.508.... 5.588
1/8........8.396.... 8.467
MPH........86.11.... 86.14
1,000'.....10.866... 10.921
1/4........12.947... 12.994
MPH........108.14... 108.43
The above is pretty much what I saw with the comparison vs the Miniram, but mine was a bit more et difference, which was probably due to my automatic application. They used a T56 manual with the above test as per the article.
That's disappointing.
Had the launch and 60' times been equal, the LT1 would have actually had a better ET in the 1/4. You can see after the 60' mark, it actually caught up to the superram a bit.
In my opinion, on slicks with equal launches, the difference in et would be greater.
#15
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
Josh
Posted on: 2009/1/9 22:24
This is pretty close to what you are looking for. It's my stock-ish L98, a heads/cam LT1, and a hotcammed LT4. My turd did make a little more down low than either of these cars.
Green = My L98.
Red = 96 LT4, hotcam, long tubes, cat back, electric water pump, 4.09 gears, tuned by me.
Blue = 1995 LT1 with LE1 heads/cam, long tubes, mail order tune.
All cars are ZF6 cars.
The heads/cam car would have made more if I had been allowed to tune it. You can see how rich it gets towards the end of the pull. Probably another 10 RWHP or so in the fueling on that one. Spinning it out would have netted a bigger number as well, but this thread is about the low end of the engines, so peak numbers shouldn't really matter.
The LT4 car runs at the drag strip with me quite a bit and on any given day he is between a full second and 1.3 seconds faster than I am. He also traps 10-12 MPH higher. He also sixties better than I do, mid-low 1.7's to my high 1.7's low 1.8's. We both run bias ply ET streets. All in all, his car is MUCH faster than mine, regardless of the low end numbers.
Green = My L98.
Red = 96 LT4, hotcam, long tubes, cat back, electric water pump, 4.09 gears, tuned by me.
Blue = 1995 LT1 with LE1 heads/cam, long tubes, mail order tune.
All cars are ZF6 cars.
The heads/cam car would have made more if I had been allowed to tune it. You can see how rich it gets towards the end of the pull. Probably another 10 RWHP or so in the fueling on that one. Spinning it out would have netted a bigger number as well, but this thread is about the low end of the engines, so peak numbers shouldn't really matter.
The LT4 car runs at the drag strip with me quite a bit and on any given day he is between a full second and 1.3 seconds faster than I am. He also traps 10-12 MPH higher. He also sixties better than I do, mid-low 1.7's to my high 1.7's low 1.8's. We both run bias ply ET streets. All in all, his car is MUCH faster than mine, regardless of the low end numbers.
Attach file:
joshchristodd.1.jpg (0.00 KB)
#16
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
BeachBum
Posted on: 2009/1/9 23:52
Considering you have a ZF6, that is a pretty good test. An auto will throw off the low numbers due to the converter flash on a chassis dyno..... but not yours.
#17
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
BeachBum
Posted on: 2009/1/9 23:53
For those curious, here are the 3 dyno graphs of the Stock TPI, Miniram and Superram all on top of each on the same 383 motor. Kind of interesting if you're a TPI guy.....
[IMG]http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/cc342/tldrane/SR-MR-TPIA.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/cc342/tldrane/SR-MR-TPIA.jpg[/IMG]
#18
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
vetteoz
Posted on: 2009/1/10 13:02
Quote:
http://www.compcams.com/Community/Art ... Details.asp?ID=1737510521
BeachBum wrote:
The motor is a 383 with somewhere around a 236/242 cam. These were both done on the same motor & dyno.
http://www.compcams.com/Community/Art ... Details.asp?ID=1737510521
#19
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
LD85
Posted on: 2009/1/12 13:09
have you considered the HSR?
#20
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
anesthes
Posted on: 2009/1/12 13:28
Quote:
He needs a singleplane and a big vortech blower.
-- Joe
LD85 wrote:
have you considered the HSR?
He needs a singleplane and a big vortech blower.
-- Joe
#21
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
LD85
Posted on: 2009/1/12 18:24
Quote:
I don't know,,,, going fast isn't for eveyone
anesthes wrote:
Quote:
LD85 wrote:
have you considered the HSR?
He needs a singleplane and a big vortech blower.
-- Joe
I don't know,,,, going fast isn't for eveyone
#22
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
CentralCoaster
Posted on: 2009/1/12 22:01
Quote:
How so? It's clear to me the LT1 had a worse launch, yet still caught back up a little afterwards. I don't think the LT1 intake will ever be the limiting factor on the 60' of a stock vehicle, or even with drag radials.
BeachBum wrote:
In my opinion, on slicks with equal launches, the difference in et would be greater.
How so? It's clear to me the LT1 had a worse launch, yet still caught back up a little afterwards. I don't think the LT1 intake will ever be the limiting factor on the 60' of a stock vehicle, or even with drag radials.
#23
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
BeachBum
Posted on: 2009/1/13 0:21
Quote:
My opinion is based upon my own personal experience between the Miniram and Superram. I ran them back to back on a A-B-A test...... the SR had a harder 60 ft by a tenth.... the MR could never recover from that, in fact it got worse.
However, a Miniram is not an LT-1 intake, but they do provide fairly similar torque curves when looking at apple to apple comparisons.... with that said, in my opinion, both on slicks, the difference between the two would have been greater, I think the SR has the ability to 60 ft MUCH harder than an LT-1 with the same street set-up. The LT-1 is a limiting factor.... it simply does not generate the mid to low rpm torque that the SR does, which prevents it from accelerating with the Superram.
However, roughen up the LT-1 with a loose converter and the right cam/gear combination and it'll fly passed the SR at all increments.
CentralCoaster wrote:
Quote:
BeachBum wrote:
In my opinion, on slicks with equal launches, the difference in et would be greater.
How so? It's clear to me the LT1 had a worse launch, yet still caught back up a little afterwards. I don't think the LT1 intake will ever be the limiting factor on the 60' of a stock vehicle, or even with drag radials.
My opinion is based upon my own personal experience between the Miniram and Superram. I ran them back to back on a A-B-A test...... the SR had a harder 60 ft by a tenth.... the MR could never recover from that, in fact it got worse.
However, a Miniram is not an LT-1 intake, but they do provide fairly similar torque curves when looking at apple to apple comparisons.... with that said, in my opinion, both on slicks, the difference between the two would have been greater, I think the SR has the ability to 60 ft MUCH harder than an LT-1 with the same street set-up. The LT-1 is a limiting factor.... it simply does not generate the mid to low rpm torque that the SR does, which prevents it from accelerating with the Superram.
However, roughen up the LT-1 with a loose converter and the right cam/gear combination and it'll fly passed the SR at all increments.
#24
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
CentralCoaster
Posted on: 2009/1/13 0:25
Ah ok, I forgot about the converter limitation.
Would you agree with me though on a 6-speed?
I guess some of the comparisons I may have seen could've had different stock heads and cam. So perhaps the newer design was compensating a bit for the loss of torque from the intake.
Would you agree with me though on a 6-speed?
I guess some of the comparisons I may have seen could've had different stock heads and cam. So perhaps the newer design was compensating a bit for the loss of torque from the intake.
#25
Re: TPI vs. LT1 or miniram dyno curve?
BeachBum
Posted on: 2009/1/13 3:20
Quote:
I really don't know with a 6 speed, I would just be guessing, I've never done any testing. I am sure somebody else has at one time or another.
But, I will say, the trend with gearing an LT-1 6 speed seems to be more along the lines of 3.73-4.11, and the SR or TPI's, 3.07-3.54..... and thats going to help the LT-1.
But, I don't know, I am sure there are some with some experiences that could chime in. At the end of the day, as I had said in another thread, regardless of if its a SR, MR or LT-1 intake, they're all good and a big step over a TPI intake. Pick your poison and go have fun :thumbright:
CentralCoaster wrote:
Ah ok, I forgot about the converter limitation.
Would you agree with me though on a 6-speed?
I guess some of the comparisons I may have seen could've had different stock heads and cam. So perhaps the newer design was compensating a bit for the loss of torque from the intake.
I really don't know with a 6 speed, I would just be guessing, I've never done any testing. I am sure somebody else has at one time or another.
But, I will say, the trend with gearing an LT-1 6 speed seems to be more along the lines of 3.73-4.11, and the SR or TPI's, 3.07-3.54..... and thats going to help the LT-1.
But, I don't know, I am sure there are some with some experiences that could chime in. At the end of the day, as I had said in another thread, regardless of if its a SR, MR or LT-1 intake, they're all good and a big step over a TPI intake. Pick your poison and go have fun :thumbright:
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