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| jsup | Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
 
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So anyway.....
I purchased some injectors from a vendor that were listed at 37 LBS. When I received the injectors they were marked 40LBS. I inquired about the difference and was met with this response: [QUOTE]All tests run with n-Heptane @ 20oC (+/-1oC), 3.0 Bar (+/-0.01 Bar), 14VDC (+/-0.05VDC), saturated driver with RC cutoff. Gas (0.735g/mL) ratings converted at a 1.035:1 ratio. Note: Injector flow rates are based on testing with n-Heptane test solvent (0.6855 g/ml). U.S. EPA emission test gasoline 40CFR86.113 (0.735g/ml) flows in most common injector designs at about a 3 to 4% higher rate than n-Heptane. A ratio of 1.035:1 can be used when converting the flow specifications above.[/QUOTE] OK, but the advertised flow is 37 LBS. Is this a 37 LB injector or not? So I got this response: [QUOTE] As stated below you multiply the Heptane rating by 1.035 for gas. Most injectors sold on the market are advertised based on their test bench rating with Heptane. This goes for Delphi, Siemens and Bosch as well. The number on the side is something Mr. Gasket wanted not us as it only leads to confusion.[/QUOTE] I multiply 37 advertised by 1.035 I get 38.29. Now I really confused. Is it 37 or is it 40 or is it 38.29. So I ask for clarification and I get this response: [QUOTE]The specs in our web ad are ACCURATE.[/QUOTE] So I finally gave up and ordered a known tested balanced set rated at 25.2 LBS. I sent these 37,38.3, 40 pound injectors to a third party for verification in order to validate my sanity or lack thereof. Here's the response I received: [QUOTE] WE FLOWED THE INJECTORS ON A ASNU FLOW BENCH THAT IS 2 MONTHS OLD. WE USED ASNU'S FLOW-RITE TEST FLUID THAT IS THE SAME SPECIFIC GRAVITY AS GASOLINE. THE INJECTORS WERE ALL FLOW MATCHED AND FLOWED 420CC/MM OR 40.38LBS/HR WE TESTED THEM ON A SECOND ASNU FLOW BENCH THAT IS A YEAR OLD AND THE NUMBERS ARE THE SAME. FOR KICKS WE PUT THEM ON A 19YR OLD ASNU FLOW BENCH AND THE INJECTORS STILL FLOWED THE SAME. THESE INJECTORS ARE WHAT THEY ARE MARKED. 40LBS. NOT 36 AS PURCHASED.[/QUOTE] I hope this proves useful to someone. I had to have Alvin re tune my chip, twice (I bet he wants to kill me).....I had the chip tuned to 37lbs, the injectors were putting out 40. I am not telling this story to pick on any specific vendor. I am telling this story so anyone who buys injectors knows what they are getting into. So you know what questions to ask and how to ask them. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/25 21:41
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Senior Guru
 
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What's the point of a buyer beware thread without names?
That doesn't help anyone. In my experience, when I find something to be falsly advertised, or even a typo that resulted in a misorder, I tell them and hope they'll at least correct it so it doesn't cause the same hassle for other customers. But they never seem correct it. So the only solution is to inform the consumer they're providing false information. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/25 23:51
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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| jsup | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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Because I feel partially responsible. I ordered from a company that does not have a phone number, and does not have a mailing address. They do not do returns and do not concede that they are wrong.
I posted that I was ordering 36s from TFS from Summit. He posted these were the "same injectors". I took his word for it. I shouldn't have. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 0:42
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Senior Guru
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You're responsible for their unprofessionalism! I'm not in the market for injectors, but I hope someone on here doesn't buy from that guy.
If this guy is "posting" then I presume he's a member either here or there and you don't want to foul up business for him? On another note, flow all depends on what pressures the injectors were tested at. This guy said 3 bar, which is about 43.5 psi, which is a standard, but I don't know if it's the only standard. What pressure did these third party guys test at? |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 0:48
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| jsup | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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You're right. It was Racetronix.
The guy who really helped me out. BY GIVING ME A FREE SET OF FLOW MATCHED INJECTORS was FICINJECTORS. I gave him the Racetronix he said he can sell them for more than enough to cover the ones he gave me. BTW, the Racetronix are good injectors, they are manufactured by Lucas. So the TFS, Accel, Holley, and a bunch of other brands will be identical, and you'll get service, not serviced. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 0:51
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| jsup | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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Quote:
Third party tested at three bar also, 43.5. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 0:54
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| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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What do you need injectors that big for? 30lb/hr is more than enough for what youve got. How many different lots of injectors do you have sitting there?
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Absolutly. Jsup, you must have money to burn mate!!  |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 1:00
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| jsup | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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Quote:
It cost me nothing. I sold the original set and this set was a $5 upgrade. I traded these Racetronix for a new set of Bosch 24s, so that cost me nothing. The way I came up with 36 pounds is that I called Standard ( who owns Lucas, who makes MANY famous brand injectors) and was able to speak DIRECTLY to the guy who designs these things. He spent a LONG time on the phone with me and taught me a lot. Wish I knew it was coming I would have recorded it. He did some calcuations based on the heads, cam, rockers, CI, etc.... this ENGINEER came up with 33lbs being "ideal". He said anywhere between 28 and 33 would be good, with a preference to 33. Well, there are no 33 lb injectors. I spoke to Alvin at PCM for Less and he said he can get 42s to work on my motor that 36 was easy and HE recommends a slightly over sized injector. Then I spoke to a local engine builder who also recommended 36s. So I had three, solid, indisputable sources. I took their advice. Nothing personal, but I don't believe everything I read on the internet, I take my info from many different sources and weigh them in importance accordingly. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 1:22
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| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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Oh i see.
I recomend 30lb/hr, 32lb/hr would be plenty. I have 36lb/hr Bosch, which flow 38lb/hr with the 43.5 psi GM setup. 30lb/hr Bosch injectors will flow 31.68lb/hr and (this bit is the bit youll want) 32lb/hr flow 33.79lb/hr |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 1:38
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| jsup | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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Quote:
The Bosch I got are flow tested at 25.2 at 43.5 I'm just going to run those until I can do a datalog and see where I'm at, at WOT. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 1:45
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| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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Id be using great caution doing that. The Bosch injectors are not expensive at all, and are very good.
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 1:59
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| bogus | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
 
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I am not seeing a problem here.
They were marked at 37, they said 40 and you didn't believe them. What part am I missing? BTW, Casey is dead right, you would have to have a real big screw loose to think you needed that much injector on an N/A motor. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 2:10
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| jsup | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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Quote:
Here's my problems: 1. they have no phone number or address, it's email only 2. they don't take returns 3. They sell a 37lb injector that is actually a 40lb injector. I had the computer tuned to 37lb based on their representation. 4. I can't get a refund, so screw it I'll just sell them and eat the loss 5. When asked why a 37 lb injector is labeled 40, I was given an answer that put them at 38.3, which is still not 37 and still not consistent with the tune I requested. I had them flow tested and verified at 40, indicating that the advertised 37 is off. It's time, money, aggravation becuase the flow rate is mis represented. Even with that mis representation I still can not get a refund, I didn't even request one since there's no one to call. Email is a PIA way of doing business. The time and effort to fix this ain't worth the $100 I'll lose on the injectors. Quote: BTW, Casey is dead right, you would have to have a real big screw loose to think you needed that much injector on an N/A motor. Did you read how I came up with that number? The new injectors are all flow verified Bosch at 25.2 LBS at three bar. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 2:31
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Parts don't make power, engines make power. |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Senior Guru
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Quote:
You got that backwards. They insisted it was a 37 even though it was labeled 40 and jsup tested them at 40. But not before he got a custom tuned based on 37 which didn't run well because it was getting too much fuel. jsup, does the 02 sensor give any feedback at WOT? Or are the fuel tables fixed? |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 2:44
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| jsup | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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Quote:
Won't know till next week when I get the car running. I submit into evidence: After less than 5 minutes of running on new plugs: [IMG]http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL857/2991862/10180626/312918389.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL857/2991862/10180626/312918387.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL857/2991862/10180626/312918388.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL857/2991862/10180626/312918386.jpg[/IMG] |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 2:51
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Parts don't make power, engines make power. |
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| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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Quote:
Not accurately. Once youre in PE mode the O2 isnt used by the ECM. Quote:
I did, but the part that has me buggered is you say you need 33lb/hr (i told you what will deliver that) but you throw in some 25lb/hr injectors? Why? It makes no sense what so ever. Why why why?? How many grams per second of air are you flowing at about 5,000rpm? Do you have Datamaster? |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 4:07
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| jsup | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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Quote:
I got the new injectors about two weeks ago. Long before this thread was started. Why? Like I said, the engineer said 28-33 lbs. These are flowing 25 at 3 bar, if I crank up the fuel pressure a little I'm into the 28 pound range. Why go 28? I believe there an argument to be made that unless I'm at WOT on the consistent basis, the smaller injectors will provide better and more consistent reliability and driveability. Additionally, there are some pretty high horsepower cars running 24 lbs, which I think is light, but it seems to work. I'm going to put them in, do a datalog, and see where I'm at. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 14:05
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Parts don't make power, engines make power. |
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| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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What a load of garbage. Who told you that crap?
I went from 24lb/hr to 36lb/hr Bosch and i can tell you for a 100% fact there is no difference in drivability or reliability. Putting up the pressure a little aint gonna do what you expect. Youre talking about pumping the pressure up over 50psig to get 28lb/hr out of your 25s, and they wont like that. If 24lb/hr Bosch flow 25.3 @43.5psig, and 24 @39psig, thats 5 psi for an extra 1.3lb/hr on a 24 pound injector. Upping the fuel pressure is not how you get the injectors to flow what you need. Why go 28? I dont know, youre not, so why are you asking? youve gone 25, thats what you said you have, and that is all youll get. Dont expect much and you wont be too dissapointed. The combo listed in your sig isnt going to give you what id call high horsepower. You say nothing about bottom ends so one has to just assume its stock with the exception of the piston you tried to drive a distributor screw through. If you make 400 horses, ill be very impressed. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 15:20
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| jsup | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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You know what Case, I tend to agree with you. It's not too late, I'd be much more comfortable with 30s, which is what I wanted in the first place. I wound up with the 25s becuase they were sent to me no charge from an injector guy I was working on. I'll send them back and get the 30s.
I'm going to make the switch on Monday. I can get the injectors, I'm going to call Alvin and have him go to 30LBS. I have been up in the air on this I needed someone like you to kick my ass over the line. Thanks. I'll let you know how it goes. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 18:34
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Parts don't make power, engines make power. |
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| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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No worries mate
 Keep us posted eh? |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 21:38
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| jsup | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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I just ordered the new Bosh style 30LB that are flow matched at 32 and change each.
I'm returning the 25s to him, it's a $50 difference. That's where I wanted to be anyway...just needed the push. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 23:33
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| PeteK | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Moderator
 
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Quote:
30's are more than you need, and I am happy to see that you stepped it back (less than 36). |
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Posted on: 2008/4/27 0:46
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| jsup | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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If the ones I got were a real 37 as advertised, I would have kept them.
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Posted on: 2008/4/27 2:26
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| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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If you had a 94 or 95 i couldve made those changes for you
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Posted on: 2008/4/27 5:43
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| jsup | Re: Fuel injectors...buyer beware | ||
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Elite Guru
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Quote:
36 was on the ragged edge of acceptable. 32 and change is more centrist to my application. I know people will swear to 24, but I believe it's too light. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/27 22:38
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