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| scooter18155 | 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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Guru Newb
 
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have been having issues with my car not starting pretty much sense i got it. This was an intermittent problem it seemed to come and go as it wanted to. it would start fine one day and work fine for an uncertain amount of time sometimes a day or at times up to week or more with no issues until it decided to be a pia again. well upon getting it out of hibernation early last week i got it started up for a bit and then a cpl days later went out to move it to work on my bad brake line and the starter finally took a dump on me. would get clicking noise from solenoid and some buzzing sound from dash (kinda behind the radio) which i have no clue what that noise is from. now i put a new starter in and still wont start. I don't get nothing no start no clicking just nothing. when i took out the old starter i did have it tested and it tested bad so it was definitely a bad starter I'm just unsure of where to look next.
a cpl things of note on this subject is 1 i had previously put in a new ignition switch last summer thinking it may be my intermittent starting issue which still persisted afterward Is it possible when the starter took a dump it fried this? 2 when starting issue would occur last summer my battery would also go dead. when this happened i would hook up a battery charger which has an automatic car start feature which would give me 14 plus volts according to the dash and still wont start until i let it sit that way for 5 10 Min's. I do have power now without the battery charger plugged in and letting it sit overnight to see if thats still the case tommorow. 3 the new starter i got my mechanic who does allot of my work had the starter cross referenced to try and save me a few bucks. Could this be my problem? maybe solenoid connection is different on corvette vs other vehicles? I did hook up the wires the same way they came off. 4 one of my concerns is the security module being crap causing my car to not start. If i just unplug it should it start or does it need to be present? (considering everything else was good) one reason I'm thinking this may be my problem is one of the fuses keeps blowing and is one of the fuses that this module is on. I should add that fuse is the one that runs radio horn lights in doors and lock switches. also if i press the horn it blows that fuse. I'm really depressed that it doesn't start. even if i still had previous issue with intermittent starting problems at least i could still go for an occasional cruise. Ill tell ya this much i definitely don't want to do that damn starter again. I never had such a hard time with one before. the bracket that bolts to the back of the starter and goes up to the block just under the exhaust manifold wouldn't come off the starter. I ended up having to take the exhaust manifold off the motor to make room to unbolt that bracket. the bolt on the starter it bolted to just kept turning and couldn't get to the inside nut to hold it tight to unbolt the damn thing. anyways any ideas or input on this would be really help full |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 17:46
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| bogus | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
 
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whew... dude... that was an interesting read.
From where I sit, a GM starter is a GM starter. The only reason some shops would charge more is because of the perception a Corvette part should be more expensive. In short, I would be surprised if the new starter is the problem. Next up... do the horns work? Do you have any accessories working? lights, radio? I would start at the battery connections. Even if you have good voltage, the connections could be a mess. Also, a weak battery will have voltage, but no amps, so it won't turn over the starter. The 84 does not have an immobilizer feature, either, so there is nothing to worry about there. however, something is blowing that fuse. I would also be shocked if the ignition switch failed... they are very durable. Now, question, did you replace the switch at the key or down the column? |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 18:40
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| rayquayle | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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Oh, but it does! If the Theft Deterrent Module is triggered, it energizes the relay behind the DIC and breaks the path to the solenoid. It also blows the horns. What could be happening is that one or both horns has a short. The driver's door lock cylinder theft switch has malfunctioned, so the alarm can't be disarmed from the driver's door. When entering the alarm goes off, but since one or both horns has a short, the CTSY/CLOCK Fuse immediately blows, so the horns don't sound and you won't hear the horn relay clicking. Since the theft module still has power, through the In-Line Fuse behind the DIC, the Starter Interrupt Relay stays energized and the starter won't crank. All speculation as to the cause though, but fact that the '84 and '85 have an immobilizer feature. I'd get behind the DIC and remove the 10 amp In-Line Fuse. This will disable the Theft Deterrent System and see what happens. Quick and dirty, he could try unlocking the passenger door from outside with the round key. This may disarm the alarm and see if he get cranking. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 19:31
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Ray Quayle in England '86 Indy PaceCar, 4+3 NCM Founder #2896 NCM Lifetime #672 Graduate of Gordon's School |
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| bogus | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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the UTS has a kill mode in that year? I didn't think the kill mode started until 86 or so, whenever the chip appeared on the key.
My bad. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/26 21:09
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| rayquayle | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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No problem, it isn't widely known. In '86 VATS was introduced. It used an additional module, the VATS Decoder Module to read the resistor in the key. It performed an additional function as well. It not only disabled the starter through the Relay behind the DIC (same one used on '84 and '85) it disabled fuel through a squarewave signal to the ECM. The '84 and '85 didn't do this. On the '84 and '85, if you set off the alarm and the engine wouldn't crank, the starter could be jumped or the car push started as fuel was still available. Not so with VATS. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/27 7:43
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Ray Quayle in England '86 Indy PaceCar, 4+3 NCM Founder #2896 NCM Lifetime #672 Graduate of Gordon's School |
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| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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Elite Guru
 
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Unplug the theft deterent module, you dont need it.
Sort out the issue that is causing the fuse to blow when the horn is used. The starter should be a Delco 10MT, they are a good and reliable starter motor, i dont see any good reason to use anything else. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/27 9:29
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| rayquayle | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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True, and what many find easier on the '84 only, remove the 10 amp In-Line Fuse behind the DIC. It does virtually the same thing as disconnecting the module, but is usually easier to get to. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/27 19:40
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Ray Quayle in England '86 Indy PaceCar, 4+3 NCM Founder #2896 NCM Lifetime #672 Graduate of Gordon's School |
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| scooter18155 | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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Guru Newb
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I replaced the switch at the column I really wasn't suspecting the ignition switch as it was replaced not that long before i put it up for the winter but i know sometimes shit happens. The horns don't work for one reason or another i push the horn button and it is an immediate zap of that fuse and the fuse is dead and is my thinking that this may be causing the fuse to blow even if i don't push the horn. however i was looking into the fuse in the fsm and noticed that security module is on that fuse as well and the wiring schematics for the 84 seem to indicate that it is connected to the ignition switch. and some reading also led me to believe the security module could result in failure to start. So it kinda makes me wonder if my problems were due to this and might be a cure all situation (except for the horn of course) all the electronics seem to work except the horn until that fuse blows and then everything on that fuse goes bye bye which is radio, door lock switches lights in the door panels also as a note the door panel lights work when door is opened and closed but don't if you push on them.(i assume they should turn on and off if you push them cause it says push here on them) sorry about the late response here guys ill try to get to all your responses asap Ive been quite busy lately and thought the notification of response would go to my email not the in box here so i thought like every wheres else i posted this i got no response. in that regards i gotta say thanks i was beginning to think nobody had anything to suggest. i posted this in corvette forum and a crossfire forum i go to with absolutely no responses there. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/28 21:41
Edited by scooter18155 on 2008/4/28 22:17:02 |
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| scooter18155 | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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OK on the pass side door thingy I don't have the key to it per say. I swapped out the door with one from i believe an 86 as the inner door support on my door was bent not allowing the window to go all the way down. It was a complete door and i don't remember switching the door lock mechanism. The locking mechanism on my old door i still have (still have the complete door unmolested) but if memory serves me right the locking mechanism must have been changed as the key i have didn't fit or work in it. but i could be mistaken as i hardly ever used it. also as a note the car has started and moved sense the door was changed and problem was present before and after door swap. also what is the dic? also thanks for this info it is helpful to understand how it works i knew it could be related but never quite thought how the bad horns could play in that. Also as a note i think my problem is either in the pass side horn or in the wiring itself. i had the drivers horn out and it worked direct contact and if i remember the pass side didnt but did try unplugging the pass horn for kicks to see what happens and still blown fuse. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/28 21:54
Edited by scooter18155 on 2008/4/28 22:13:40 |
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| scooter18155 | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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you can definitely say it is a b-i-t-c-h to get to Ive been trying to get to it last time i worked on it and no luck i gave up due to i couldn't quite figure out how to get that carpeted panel under the dash out. didn't think that it would be difficult figure piece of cake yeah right. anyways looked in the fsm and now i see what a pia it is. Also looked up dic in the dictionary and now know what it is. It was what i was thinking it was but wasn't sure. Is there only one fuse back there? If i remove the in-line fuse do i have to re hook the wires without the fuse or leave them unhooked and just tape them up? |
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Posted on: 2008/4/28 21:58
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| scooter18155 | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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OK heres an update. I just got back from taking a quick look and heres what i found out. I confirmed the ignition wire is hooked up properly to the starter. However i got to that 10 amp fuse behind the dic and it still wont start so that should rule out the security module being the problem right? Also while i was under the car confirming the wiring i got one of those power testers that you can connect to a wire and then to a ground and if you got power the light will light up. I connected this to my ignition wire while a buddy tried cranking it over and no light is lighting up so I'm not getting juice there. also took a min to disconnect both horns and put a fuse in and tried to push the horn and the fuse didn't blow so it appears one of the horns is bad. now i am going to get under the steering column and see if i can test the wires coming in and out of the ignition switch to see if I'm getting anything there. Ill probably get a new one to have on hand while I'm there to change it out. only thing I'm concerned about is if theres a line fuse somewheres in the ignition wire thats blown. Does anyone know if there is one?
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Posted on: 2008/4/29 3:00
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| rayquayle | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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Senior Guru
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Check this out:
 In view A, you'll see the In-Line Fuse labeled ANTI-THEFT FUSE. This is the one you pulled and yes, that should rule out the Theft Deterrent module. To the right you see a relay labeled THEFT DETERRENT STARTER INTERRUPT RELAY. This relay should have four cavities used on the connector. Two have Dark Green with White Stripe wires, one has a solid Dark Green wire and the other is a Pruple wire. Use your power tester and test from either of the Dark Green with White Stripe wires to a good ground while attempting a start. If you get nothing, try with the transmission in neutral. If still nothing, it is either the ignition switch or the Park/Neutral switch. If you do get good power on the Dark Green with White Stripe wire, check the Purple wire. If the Purple wire has power, you either have a wiring problem between the Relay and the Solenoid or the Starter/Solenoid is at fault. If you have power on the Dark Green with White Stripe wire, but not on the Purple wire, you may have a bad relay. Pull the relay and jumper either of the Dark Green with White Stripe wires to the Purple wire and give it a try. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/29 18:38
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Ray Quayle in England '86 Indy PaceCar, 4+3 NCM Founder #2896 NCM Lifetime #672 Graduate of Gordon's School |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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Senior Guru
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Also that purple wire is actually blue on some years, possibly 84. Some of the service manuals are wrong.
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Posted on: 2008/4/29 20:18
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| scooter18155 | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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Guru Newb
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so even though the security feature is disabled the THEFT DETERRENT STARTER INTERRUPT RELAY can still cause a non start? i figured that was only used with the alarm. thanx for this info i knew there was a starter interupt in the security system but didnt realize it was seperate from the security module. I am also considering possably the ignition sitch is out of adjustment under the dash. not sure it can be adjusted but it was changed out relatively short amount of time before car was put up for the winter. I do know the key switch pushes on this via a rod. so im thinking the ignition switch under the dash if loose wouldnt make contact thus no power to the ignition. I didnt replace the switch myself so im not familiar with how it is attached to the column but figure considering the circumstances it cant hurt to get under there and take a quick look see. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/30 2:54
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| rayquayle | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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I mentioned testing the wires at the Theft Deterrent Starter Interrupt Relay, because I thought you had the DIC still out and had easy access to this area and would allow you to verify the Ignition Switch was working to that point without removing the Hush Panel and getting upside-down in the footwell.
Yes,Theft Deterrent Starter Interrupt Relay is still in the path even with the security feature disabled. A relay will have one or more sets of contacts. Each set will have a common contact, a N.O. (Normally Open) contact and a N.C. (Nornally Closed) contact. With no power applied to the relay, there is continuity between the common and N.C. contacts. When power is applied to the relay solenoid, it pulls the contacts and the common contacts now have continuity with the N.O. contacts and the continuity between the common and N.C. contacts is broken. The Theft Deterrent Starter Interrupt Relay is no different. The power for the Starter/Solenoid comes from the Ignition Switch, through the Park Neutral Switch (this is why I suggested trying to start in N), and then through the N.C. contacts of the Theft Deterrent Starter Interrupt Relay. If the security system were operating normally and the system was armed and a tamper was detected, the system would blow the horns and energize the Theft Deterrent Starter Interrupt Relay. This would break the N.C. contacts which breaks power to the Starter/Solenoid. With the security system effectively defeated, it can no longer energize the Theft Deterrent Starter Interrupt Relay and the power can no longer be broken. But what if the problem was in the relay on its N.C. contacts. There is no continuity between the N.C. contacts due to burned/pitted/broken N.C. contacts. You could test this with the jumper between the Dark Green/White wire and the Purple (or Blue wire;thanks CC). You could also test for continuity between the N.C. contacts of the relay with a VOM on the bench, but you didn't say you had one. The only mention was a power tester. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/30 6:11
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Ray Quayle in England '86 Indy PaceCar, 4+3 NCM Founder #2896 NCM Lifetime #672 Graduate of Gordon's School |
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| scooter18155 | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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Guru Newb
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OK thanks for the better explanation. I will try this later today. yes this does sound easier then checking at the column and I still have the panel there off just put the bolts back in the dic to hold it together and to keep bolts where they belong. a power tester is all i have at the moment. all it is is a handle with a light inside that lights up if you have a current. Ive had very little to no electrical gremlins in any of my vehicles before this one so there wasn't a need to spend $ on stuff i don't need. I have tried at several different points along the way to try starting it in neutral as well as park and i so far have gotten the same results in neutral and park. |
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Posted on: 2008/4/30 20:12
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| scooter18155 | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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In these directions If i have the bad relay is it safe to leave the wires jumped for any amount of time eithr permanently or temporary so that the car is drivable? or would it be better/safer to replace the relay before going for a cpl drives? |
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Posted on: 2008/4/30 21:58
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| rayquayle | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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Sure thing, just use a jumper wire of the same guage as the two you're jumping. |
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Posted on: 2008/5/1 6:09
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Ray Quayle in England '86 Indy PaceCar, 4+3 NCM Founder #2896 NCM Lifetime #672 Graduate of Gordon's School |
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| scooter18155 | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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i didnt get power to any of the wires. so i am in the process of replacing the ignition switch. I had a new dimmer switch i have to install anyways so getting down there and putting a new one in is no big deal sence i had to go there anyways. If i still have no start after that ill check those wires again to see if possable that relay is bad. and if i havta ill look into that nuetral safety switch. After i learned about that theft deterent starter interupt relay it also made me think of another thing. when my starter had just gone south not only was i getting the solinoid click but a buzz sound from the dash which was right in the area of this relay. I dont hear this buzz sound anymore. just something that came to mind as i always wondered what that noise was from.
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Posted on: 2008/5/1 20:26
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| scooter18155 | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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well good news everyone i got it started today. Turns out the ignition switch went bad. replaced that and it fired right up. i want to thank everyone who helped me out with this. I certainly learned alot. now all i havta do is leave the battery hooked up and see if my intermittant starting issue continues or if i have cleared that up as well.
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Posted on: 2008/5/2 2:49
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| rayquayle | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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Way to go scooter!  It's great when folks hang on through all the testing required to find the problem and get it sorted without giving up. Then letting us know the outcome is nice too.The boy done good. :thumbright: |
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Posted on: 2008/5/2 17:03
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Ray Quayle in England '86 Indy PaceCar, 4+3 NCM Founder #2896 NCM Lifetime #672 Graduate of Gordon's School |
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| scooter18155 | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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thanx for the compliment. i even managed to change the oil,fuel filter, work on my pass side door, replace a bad brake line, and fix the dimmer switch in the process. it also appears like that fuse that was blowing on me is holding up as well not to mention the starting issue. Ill havta give it some time to see if my battery goes dead or if the intermittant starting issue persists but at the moment it seems fine. Ill be over there a little later to see how everythings holding up. perhaps later today or tommorow ill get to take it for the first drive of the year i cant wait.
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Posted on: 2008/5/2 19:54
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| scooter18155 | Re: 84 auto corvette wont start. | ||
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well it looks like part of my starting issue is persisting. its been starting up fine all weekend today went to visit an old friend and upon leaving it wouldnt start. after a cpl mins of feeble attempts to start no go. only got a click from the dash around where the relays are and that was it no other noises of any kind. called AAA for a tow truck to give me a tow and about an hour later when the tow truck guy got there gave it another shot and it fired right up like nothing was wrong. i do still have the fuse pulled for the security system, it has a new ignition switch as well as solinoid and starter. so i think my choices of problems are narrowing down. i think i might look into that starter interupt relay next. and if issues persist the nuetral safety switch. I also didnt think of trying to start in different gears to see if that helped. diphead me should learn to think and not get agrivated when this stuff happens lol. also wanted to note as when this intermitant starting issue would occur before (last summer and prior to new starter being installed)my battery would be dead however today i had full power and nothing. so what do you guys think? im a little uncertain as weather the relay clicking means its a good relay or a bad one. the part that sux is how will i know i finally found what is causing this? change a part and hope it doesnt persist any longer?
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Posted on: 2008/5/6 3:35
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