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Schrade | Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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FSM says nothing about removing these 2 junction blocks, J1 and J2 in the snappic, to remove CCM.
They're already binding on the CCM harness connectors (bottom right), and I think that's what's causing the intermittent 'open' in my Lights Dimmer Circuit. Anyone know how they secure to the underdash panel? I'm bettin' that they snap on by tabs, but which way? Toward driver's door?, Down? To the engine? Toward the center? They're both at the rear edge of panel A... |
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Posted on: 2015/12/15 22:14
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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Looks like it's a hex head, on the BACK of the panel.
Of course................. |
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Posted on: 2015/12/15 23:49
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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Image doesn't re-size to full?
I give up; best I can do... |
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Posted on: 2015/12/16 14:00
Edited by Schrade on 2015/12/16 14:19:42 Edited by Schrade on 2015/12/16 14:22:32 Edited by Schrade on 2015/12/16 14:23:47 Edited by Schrade on 2015/12/16 14:24:47 Edited by Schrade on 2015/12/16 14:25:18 Edited by Schrade on 2015/12/16 14:26:46 Edited by Schrade on 2015/12/16 14:27:32 Edited by Schrade on 2015/12/16 14:31:01 Edited by Schrade on 2015/12/16 14:31:40 |
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bogus | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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the concept is to tilt the CCM forward a bit - towards the radio - and it will then come out.
my ass... it was the nastiest thing to remove, ever. It might help to remove the radio... |
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Posted on: 2015/12/16 18:18
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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Yeah - FSM says radio pull - that locator pin on radio head unit rear gives some tilt room.
But no orientation will allow pulling, on mine anyway, without binding on the CCM harnesses. I'd rather have a FOURTH root canal, than put it back and re-create a shaky electrical connection. Quote:
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Posted on: 2015/12/16 19:03
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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GREAT NEWS!!!
The 2 'junction blocks' are RELAYS. Pull both, and the mounting tabs are exposed, that allow the relays' sockets to be removed... Pics on the way........... |
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Posted on: 2015/12/16 19:35
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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Spoke too soon DUH.
[size=100] WOW!!! [/size=100] Z guys have 'Plenum Pull' club. Pffttt. I'M IN CCM PULL CLUB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The 2 x relay mount removal did squat. Pulled the relays to see what there was. This is looking up, CCM to LEFT in frame. See how little room to pull the relays. Piece of cake, comparatively speaking. |
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Posted on: 2015/12/16 20:28
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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Push snaplocks, relay mount off, hard part done yup NOPE.
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Posted on: 2015/12/16 20:34
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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STILL could not get enough clearance, in ANY orientation.
As best as I could tell, there was not enough slack in the 2 CCM harnesses. PLUS, the connectors STILL hardly cleared the opening. And nope, could NOT get in to disconnect them. So I was about to cut the insulation - it lays ACROSS the tunnel. Had NO qualms about that either NOPE. Then decided to tear it, rather than cut any stray wire that I might not be seeing. And still it took a WRESTLING match to dislodge. |
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Posted on: 2015/12/16 20:43
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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And MOST IMPORTANT - note bolts and screws BACK IN HOLES where possible, or tape-labeled together for re-assembly...
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Posted on: 2015/12/16 20:56
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bogus | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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I hope I never have to deal with the CCM again.
It was a pain... I got it out, I just don't remember the actual process that freed it now. |
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Posted on: 2015/12/16 21:43
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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I'm gettin' my ass handed to me in pieces.
Does the CCM chassis itself have to be grounded for CCM circuit testing? |
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Posted on: 2015/12/29 20:23
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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Can a DVM be used instead of a test light?
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Posted on: 2015/12/29 20:59
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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What is 'Ground of Connector, from step 1 in the flow chart?
It can't be terminal 2, or 10, of the connector, because those 2 are tested in steps 2, and 3, in the flow chart. ??????? |
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Posted on: 2015/12/29 22:07
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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Step 1 tests for voltage INCOMING on terminal 1.
In step 1, since I didn't know, I tested BOTH 2, and 10. Both showed voltage. Since steps 2, and 3, are actually done, I know that the tests for 2, and 10, were to determine if there was an 'open', going to the common splice - see diagram. Next up, pull the dash. Quote:
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Posted on: 2015/12/29 23:21
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Matatk | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Webmaster
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So you still haven't done test 1? I don't have the fsm in front of me, but the connector should be outlined. Is there a black wire in the connector?
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Posted on: 2015/12/30 2:36
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_________________
2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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There's 2 Matt; I got the answer in my last post there, if you can follow how I said it.
Step 1 is to test for voltage coming in. Directions should probably say NOT to connect to 'ground of harness', but to 'a' ground. Steps 2, 3, test the 2 grounds in the harness. Quote:
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Posted on: 2015/12/30 2:44
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Matatk | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Webmaster
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Not to argue, but it says "ground of connector" because you are testing the ground at the connector - so if there's no "light" from the test light, you check for an open/shorted ground on circuit 50 (or open ac fuse). I have found that in general, the troubleshooting steps are very specific and you can't bypass one or the other.
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Posted on: 2015/12/31 11:35
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_________________
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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I understand what you're sayin' here Matt, but I don't 'see' it, for step 1.
What is the 'ground of connector'? You asked before if there's a Black wire, and there's 2 of them in the connector - both on the lower left of the HU diagram. Those 2 are tested in steps 2, and 3, respectively. Circuit 50 is #1, top left of head unit. It's 12V from Ignition ON. It seems to me that you could ground your light (or multimeter) on ANY ground, to see that either there IS 12V, ... OR, that there's NOT 12V, because of a blown fuse, or an open on #50. I know that you can't skip steps - NORMALLY. But if there's REDUNDANCY, as there SEEMS to be, then ....... ? ------------- Can't anyone else ring in here, and say what they're seein' in step one? I need all the help I can get on this. |
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Posted on: 2015/12/31 14:04
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Matatk | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Webmaster
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I will try to look in the fsm later. What year is your z again?
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Posted on: 2015/12/31 15:34
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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It's '90 Matt.
I been readin' steps, and lookin schematics for over an hour, tryin' to see that you're right, and I'm wrong. I need to find SOMEthin here....... |
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Posted on: 2015/12/31 15:38
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Matatk | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Webmaster
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Man this is so convoluted reading the FSM.
OK, I don't have a 90 fsm. I have a 92, similar but possibly not identical. I will give you an idea of what I found and it involves scanning through multiple pages. I was incorrect in what I told you above. But it is still specific and you are not using "any" ground. It says check the AC head ground which (in 92) is circuit 150 and ground point G106 (connector found on 8a-202-6, elec diagram on 8a-66-0, and ground dist on 8a-14-3). So in my opinion now, you'd be checking the ground point origin. I think in your case, it might not matter but I can't say for certain. Obviously it would seem if you got a light between 1/2 and 1/10 you have ground at the connector! Back to the original issue because I think it was lost here. Are you troubleshooting the CCM or or HVAC system at this point? What are the symptoms or issues? Also, did you do the battery reset that is recommended on 8a-62-0? |
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Posted on: 2016/1/1 1:51
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Matatk | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Webmaster
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Chuck - I saw in the other thread you are having ac and radio issues. I found this old bulletin online:
19. TITLE - Loss of heating or AC control. YEAR(S) - 1990-1991 PROBLEM - The following information comes from page 47 of the 9/10 issue of the Registry Newsletter from Gordon Killebrew: First off, you may or may not notice your radio controls acting odd as well... "...the cause was a so called "logic loss." The memory programmer in the AC programmer lost track of where it was. Just like a home computer when the power is removed from the system, then re-powered up, the computer did a re-learn and again performed as it should. A bulletin was released to all dealers telling them if this occurred to removed the radio and courtesy fuse for 15 sec. with the ignition off. This did a reset of the AC logic. A defective radio data signal could cause a AC logic loss, or vice versa. CORRECTION - In 1991, the AC data lines were removed from pin J ALDL data line to the radio. The #1996 circuit then became number 461A and 461B going from the AC control head to the AC programmer. The pin J ALDL #1996 wire became the #720 circuit going directly to cavity C6 in the radio control head's white connector. This resolved the AC radio interface problem, the root cause of the logic loss that was coming from the new AC air mix motor. All 1990 Corvettes have a BULER flat pack air mix motor (part number 16145772). It was causing the logic loss in the AC system. The motor did not have built-in stops and if the tip would break or wear, the motor would go beyond its travel range and was extensively damaged; thus causing the AC system to flash lights and fail. The fiber tip, GM part # 52452753, did in fact crack and wear on many cars. As the cars get older this may happen more often. In the mid-1991 GM released a new motor with stops, part # 16124952 made by Calasonic. In 1990, bulletin 90-378-1A was released with the part number for L98 as well as ZR-1 programmers with capacitors to prevent logic loss. In 1991, bulletin 91-200-1A was released stating the corrected programmers for the early 1991 cars. If you think you may have a logic loss on your AC system review this information and look for the presence of a Buler flat-pack motor worn tip or broken tip. If the indicator lights flash and you do not have the correct AC control, do the following test: 1. Turn the ignition key on, then turn on the AC on Auto. 2. Hold the up and down fan speeds buttons both in at the same time for about 5 seconds, then release. 3. In the digital dash, "-00" should appear . If a number appears, you have a system fault code. Press the FAN AUTO button to show any fault codes stored in the programmer. (Pg 1C1-2 of 1990 service manual.) Code 01: Air mix door actuator circuit fault. Code 02: air mix door actuator circuit fault. Code 03: outside (ambient) air temp. sensor circuit open. Code 04: outside (ambient) air temp. sensor circuit short. Code 06: Inside car temp. sensor circuit shorted. Code 07: Solar (sun load) sensor open. Code 08: Solar (sun load) sensor shorted. Code 09: low freon detected. Code 10: UART or E&C data buss line failure. Most commonly, a 01 or 02 code will be present. Sometimes there are no codes present." SERVICE BULLETIN/RECALL - 90-378-1A and 91-200-1A |
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Posted on: 2016/1/1 2:09
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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Thanks there Matt; will have to study this a FEW times...
Yeah - I did a pre-Test, that's in one of the flow charts above... Reading time........................................ |
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Posted on: 2016/1/1 20:08
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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One point at a time here...
What was 'incorrect', that you said? ----------------- Circuit 150 is a Ground (probably same for '90 + '92), and it is socket #2 for A/C Head Connector. Circuit 150 is tested in STEP 2, from Chart in post 14 above. So we STILL do not know what 'Ground of Connector' is, for STEP 1 in chart. (UNLESS it means the ground point G106). Ground G106 was scrubbed clean and fresh di-electric grease, when I did the top end restoration. Quote:
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Posted on: 2016/1/3 18:06
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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Quote:
I think in your case, it might not matter but I can't say for certain. Obviously it would seem if you got a light between 1/2 and 1/10 you have ground at the connector! YES... ...because STEP 1 was to test for 12V coming in, BEFORE actually testing the 2 grounds, sockets 2, and 10. |
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Posted on: 2016/1/3 18:09
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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OK - gave this a study / read-through.
I THINK I might be able to add update info to this information, since I am already at the diagnostic for this display, < --- --- --- > , in the A/C Head Unit.... Will update........................... Quote:
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Posted on: 2016/1/3 18:32
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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OK - Step 4 (post 14), test A/C Programmer connector ...
So I cheated - pulled the Courtesy Fuse, since terminal C4 comes FROM courtesy fuse, and tested for input and ground. Input to fuse socket was 12.84 V - that's a pass, IF 12.84 is coming TO socket C4 of connector to A/C Programmer Module. Ground was 10.xx V, although NOT definitive............... Test was only for a ground light on C4. |
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Posted on: 2016/1/3 21:24
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Matatk | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Webmaster
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Quote:
90 may be different than 92. In 92 C4 is circuit 940, should read battery voltage. In 92 it's the a/c programmer fuse. Can you post the 90 wiring chart? Regardless, I think it should still be battery voltage, not 10 v. Not sure that's the problem, but probably should be addressed. |
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Posted on: 2016/1/4 1:45
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_________________
2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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Yeah - we're still on same page figuratively, and literally I think here - I didn't explain well, and forgot attachment.
Quote:
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Posted on: 2016/1/4 13:11
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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I didn't pull the dash yet, and short-cutted the Step 4 test (post 14), AT THE FUSE, instead of at the A/C Programmer connector.
And yes - it WAS battery voltage - 12.84, AT THE FUSE. (I pulled the A/C Programmer fuse, (+) multimeter in socket, and grounded MM (-) probe to vehicle ground). THEN, I grounded (-) MM probe to A/C Programmer side of fuse socket - that goes to terminal C4, and got 10.xx. 10.xx could be a problem, EXCEPT, last night, thinking back on it, I remembered that I did NOT turn on Ignition. So, when I pull the dash, and pull A/C Programmer connector, I SHOULD get 12.84 on connector pin C4 - UNLESS there's an open or a short on the fuse-to-programmer harness. Still with me there? Anyone else? I need input........... |
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Posted on: 2016/1/4 13:34
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Matatk | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Webmaster
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I think you should have battery voltage regardless of whether or not the ignition is on. According to the wiring diagram, it has "hot at all times" to the a/c programmer fuse and then it goes directly to the C4 pin. You might have corrosion in the fuse box or a bad connection at the fuse itself. Try taking it out and replacing it and see if that helps. Otherwise, I'd be checking the resistance of that wire.
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Posted on: 2016/1/4 17:26
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_________________
2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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Battery voltage should be (and WAS), on the (+) side of the fuse. I put (-) meter probe to chassis for that one.
Then, putting (-) to A/C Programmer side of fuse, and got 10.xx V. But again, ignition was OFF, and step 4 in Flow Chart post 14 above says ignition ON, to check (-) side of Circuit. Apparently, A/C Programmer is energized on another circuit, in redundancy, to complete the Ground test. ??? |
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Posted on: 2016/1/5 21:33
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Matatk | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Webmaster
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Sorry, Chuck, I didn't see the part about ignition on.
Perhaps the actual voltage doesn't matter which is why FSM calls for a test light. Have you done the next steps yet? |
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Posted on: 2016/1/6 14:30
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_________________
2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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No - have to pull the dash, to get to A/C Programmer, which is where 2 flow charts converge, in diagnostic steps...
Cannot understand why no deferring of 2 problems to one diagnostic. But sound off on ANYthing there Matt - makes me double check, and that's where I find mistakes!!!!!!!!!! |
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Posted on: 2016/1/6 15:13
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_________________
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Matatk | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Webmaster
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Since I'm kind of working those from the middle on versus the beginning....
Is it correct you only have "three dashes" on the ac head and you are unable to get any codes? |
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Posted on: 2016/1/6 19:11
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_________________
2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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Yes - no A/C codes. Not one. Only 3 dashes (with first dash 'broken').
Supposedly that E & C Bus failure. No Tech 1 scanner to override E & C Circuit....... Whatcha' thinkin'? Quote:
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Posted on: 2016/1/6 20:48
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_________________
LT5, Marc Haibeck ECM module, AUTOMATIC!!! |
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Transfer |
Matatk | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Webmaster
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Quote:
Thought we'd start at square one. Found some really good info from "Hooked on Vettes" on CF: http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c ... -problem-pics-inside.html "---" indicates a E & C bus failure between the Programmer and the Heater/AC Control Head. (Not communicating). The Programmer gets power from the CTSY and A/C fuse. Since you have power at the Control Head, the A/C fuse must be good. If your interior courtesy lights are working, the CTSY fuse must be good. The Bose Radio Control Head is also on this bus so it could cause a problem on the E&C bus. (NOT LIKELY). You could disconnect the cables from the back of the Radio Control Head to eliminate it. Your pictures look like some of the connectors have corrosion on them. Clean all of the connectors with electrical contact cleaner and hook them back up and re-test. If it still doesn't work the only thing you can do is verify the voltage on the E&C bus to see if it's shorted to B+ (12 Volts) or shorted to ground. (Zero volts). If you have a scope, you can monitor this bus for any activity while you press different buttons. On the ALDL Connector above the drivers right knee the connector looks like this. FEDCBA GHJKLM With a Volt meter, measure between pin J (E&C bus) and pin A (Ground). Should measure around 9.2 volts DC. (Doesn't matter if ignition is on or off). If it measures OK, the Programmer is probably bad. If you had a Tech 1 you could attach it to the Diagnostic connector and simulate the Heater/AC control head to isolate the problem. Followed by With the Control Head plugged in, disconnect the electrical connectors from the Programmer and re-check A to J. If it now reads around 9.2 VDC, the Programmer is bad. |
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Posted on: 2016/1/7 2:08
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_________________
2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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Read through the thread there Matt - thanks.
Looks like conv90 had the same problem as I have - blower comes on with Ignition and stays on, AND, the "- --- ---" A/C LED Display. I hate when some say, "I had a similar problem, and it was... x", and it WASN'T And note that he typed it twice identically - " - --". There IS one difference however; he doesn't say that his SONY was inop, whereas my BOSE Head is inop. Me and Andy [?] are locked out there, so we can't find out what the problem was (10 year old thread, but he was logged on last August). Should have dash out later today for A/C Programmer access... edit: Followed his threads for 2 years afterward - he never posted solution, and changed motors twice. Arghhh. |
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Posted on: 2016/1/7 13:38
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_________________
LT5, Marc Haibeck ECM module, AUTOMATIC!!! |
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Matatk | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Webmaster
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Any way you can get a known good programmer / head to test with?
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Posted on: 2016/1/7 14:39
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_________________
2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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Doubt it; but a couple flowcharts have converged to Programmer, so I should know more by end of day here...
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Posted on: 2016/1/7 14:45
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_________________
LT5, Marc Haibeck ECM module, AUTOMATIC!!! |
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Transfer |
Matatk | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Webmaster
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Quote:
Did you try this simple test: On the ALDL Connector above the drivers right knee the connector looks like this. FEDCBA GHJKLM With a Volt meter, measure between pin J (E&C bus) and pin A (Ground). Should measure around 9.2 volts DC. (Doesn't matter if ignition is on or off). If it measures OK, the Programmer is probably bad. |
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Posted on: 2016/1/7 15:07
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_________________
2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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I plugged it in; got 2.93/2.96 V, ignition Off, A/C Head DIS-connected.
In what flow chart IS that test there Matt? edit: Tested again, A/C Head connected, same readings. Again, Ignition ON, 4.xx V. If Programmer needs butter (toast), still need to confirm. You remember in what flow chart it is there Matt? |
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Posted on: 2016/1/7 17:39
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_________________
LT5, Marc Haibeck ECM module, AUTOMATIC!!! |
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Transfer |
Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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YikES! Been spending more time writing on tape / taping screws, etc. Only halfway across dash too.
Break time. I thought I might be able to sneak in to access to A/C Programmer, from removed glove box hole in dash. I didn't think that very long... Electrical problem - worst nightmare? Nope; In-Dash electrical problem.................. |
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Posted on: 2016/1/7 19:01
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LT5, Marc Haibeck ECM module, AUTOMATIC!!! |
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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Dash out; no broken tabs. The sticky / shock pad gave me fits (D side, forward). Thought I was missing a screw to remove...
Do I spy an A/C Programmer Module in the Yellow circle??? |
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Posted on: 2016/1/7 20:12
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LT5, Marc Haibeck ECM module, AUTOMATIC!!! |
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Schrade | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Elite Guru
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Or is THIS my Programmer??? UGH.........
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Posted on: 2016/1/7 21:56
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LT5, Marc Haibeck ECM module, AUTOMATIC!!! |
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Matatk | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Webmaster
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Probably not the first one.
Might see part# 16155285 http://www.whiteracingproducts.com/in ... 67_1_143&products_id=1642 |
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Posted on: 2016/1/8 3:38
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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Matatk | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Webmaster
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Posted on: 2016/1/8 3:44
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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Matatk | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Webmaster
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Quote:
Sorry I missed that. Wasn't in a flow chart as far as I know, it was suggested in the CF post I linked above. |
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Posted on: 2016/1/8 15:06
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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Matatk | Re: Help on CCM pull... | ||
Webmaster
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Quote:
LTPWS |
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Posted on: 2016/1/8 15:08
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_________________
2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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Transfer |
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