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hcbph Planning next project
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I had wanted the Banski suspension kit for some time and the 20% discount plus eventual discontinuing their availability kind of pushed me to accelerate my decision.
I decided to order the full set now rather than later, received 2 components so far and will get the one later. I figure this will be a good winter project.
The bushing had been replaced once prior to my purchase of the car, but I plan to keep it a long time and think this may be a good upgrade.

I'm also seriously thinking about doing tires and possibly rims soon. I currently have the original rims (16x9.5-38) and 245x50x16 Bfg's on it (on the car when purchased). If I'm reading the tires right, they're currently 8 years old. I'm thinking about changing sizes of tires and rims as one possibility. I was looking at some 18x9.5-40 rims and 275x40x18 or 275x35x18 tires (assuming they don't contact or rub on turns) vs. just getting some newer 255x50x16 tires. I know I can currently get oem size tires but I don't know for how long vs. getting different tires and tires and for how long I'll be able to get properly backspaced rims. Have not decided which way I will go, easier and less expensive to just get tires but changing rims and tire size may leave future options while things like proper sized rims are still available.

Part of my reason for the tires is I want to drive the old Route 66 in a couple of years, and in the case of tire issues it would be easier (I think) to get a replacement tire if upgraded vs oem size in some remote area. Plus don't know how long I'll be able to find oem tires so those all weigh in on my decisions.

If anyone is running 18x9.5-40 rims and 275x40x18 or 275x35x18 tires on an early C4 running stock height suspension I'd appreciate your experiences. I've got an 86 convertible so they came with the 38 backspace rims.
Posted on: 2016/10/31 10:39
Edited by hcbph on 2016/10/31 10:55:09
Edited by hcbph on 2016/10/31 10:57:43
Edited by hcbph on 2016/10/31 10:59:41
Edited by hcbph on 2016/10/31 11:08:39
Edited by hcbph on 2016/10/31 11:14:25
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bogus Re: Planning next project
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Options do exist... but I am not the one to ask! I get lost in all the details of offsets and crap.

I think CentralCoaster did a chart on what fits what regarding wheel upgrades.

You are right to do the upgrade. If nothing else, it will give you options for bigger brakes.

And yes, the tire size you have is going away, so jumping to 18" rims will fix that.


I will be curious, too, because I want to go to 18" rims.

Posted on: 2016/10/31 14:32
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hcbph Re: Planning next project
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Been doing some more researching today, I am thinking maybe pull back a little on width, though most references I find are people going with either 275/35r18 or 275/40r18 if 18" or 275x40r17 for shorter rims.
After more looking on tire sites, I'm wondering if a 255x40r18 might be a better selection for a street only car?
I have not found anything definitive on rim widths, but it seems the closest to what's on the car currently, thought it has a shorter sidewall than the 16". Still thinking on the 18x9.5 - 40's. Found 2 styles of rims in this size I like so far.

Still doing research, that's always fun.
Posted on: 2016/10/31 15:38
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bogus Re: Planning next project
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Figure 10" wide will fit without issue.

There are some interesting thoughts on the subject. I will share when I get home tonight.
Posted on: 2016/11/1 18:17
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joeld Re: Planning next project
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This info is from the 3rd gen F-body forum, but still might have some good tips on back spacing,etc.

Joel

http://www.thirdgen.org/forums/wheels ... hing-you-ever-wanted.html
Posted on: 2016/11/1 23:37
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hcbph Re: Planning next project
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I think I've come up with the combo I want: 18x9.5-40 rims. 255x40r18 tires. I figure that based on everything I've found that the rims should fit and not rub and should align pretty much like the original rims do. The tires are supposed to work just fine on these rims and have an O.D. roughly the same diameter and width as the original tires, again so no conflict with bounce or steering rub on the car.

According to the shops I talked to, the tires will work just fine on that width of rims plus I've looked at something like 3 different websites where you can put in tires and rims and compare how they fit one vs another.

I'm not looking for extra width etc, just a good riding setup that will be easy to deal with in the future if I ever need something new down the road. If I can get that and the suspension upgrade done, hopefully I'll be ready for almost anything I expect to come against.
Posted on: 2016/11/4 1:16
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hcbph Re: Planning next project
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Spent some time on the car last weekend. I needed something to do, lost my Mom the day before Thanksgiving and needed something to think of other than her passing after the funeral. I found I had some play in the passenger rear tire hub when shook it at 6 + 12. I tightened the spindle nut up to 200'pounds and seemed tight, but didn't trust it. Decided to start this project early. Replace the hub, trailing arms with those from the Banskee kit and new poly bushing on the spring to hub bolts and sway bar. I'll do the rest of the Banskee kit later but not at this time.

I tore it down and put on a new hub and the Banskee trailing arms. Of course, when we got back from the funeral, I somewhere misplaced the bag with my metric wrenches so I ended up having to buy some new ones. I got those pieces put on but it was a bit of a bear doing it on jackstands. Took alot more time than planned but that was OK, less to think about.

I did try the measuring the trailing arm lengths as noted but came up with (I think) a slightly better idea on how to get the new ones the right length. I took the old arms and slipped the right bolts in and then slid the replacements onto the bolts. When the bolts were parallel and no extra pressure on the bolts slipping the Banskee arms on and off, they were the same length as the originals. Far as I could tell, they're exactly the same length and went on easily. The old bushings had been previously replaced and boy did they tighten the bolts down (alot more than spec I suspect).

Had snow here yesterday, so did not take it out post job, but plan to do that soon to check and insure it's all good. I did have a different type seal on the replacement hub and no instructions but think I have it all together correctly.
Posted on: 2016/12/5 11:47
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Matatk Re: Planning next project
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Sounds like you made great progress. Where are the pictures???
Posted on: 2016/12/5 14:03
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hcbph Re: Planning next project
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Quote:

Matatk wrote:
Sounds like you made great progress. Where are the pictures???


Pictures will have to wait till I do the camber rod etc. It was 'cold' out when I did what I did and the fingers would not have been able to work a camera easily. I also have some cleanup to do, got antiseize in a few spots and it was too cold to clean off.
Posted on: 2016/12/7 11:47
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hcbph Re: Planning next project
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While waiting for the toe bars, I've been thinking on how to both install and adjust the camber rods and toe bars. I actually think I've come up with a possible plan that could get it into the ball park. Couple of adapter bars, some plumb bob's, a lot of time and I think it will get it in close enough to get it to the alignment shop when done without driving like a drunken sailor.

Additionally I ordered my 18"x9.5" rims that have a +40 backspace on them. They are on sale though the end of the year and getting the rims for $200 off is a deal that's hard to pass up. I figure about the time I have them paid off I'll have enough coins to buy some tires to go with them.

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jpg  18x9-5-hyper-silver-corvette-zr1-replica-wheels-rims-for-corvette-c4-1984-1987-4.jpg (29.36 KB)
21158_5865a56d51c7b.jpg 180X180 px
Posted on: 2016/12/30 0:07
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Matatk Re: Planning next project
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Andy installed them...He might have some tips.
Posted on: 2016/12/30 4:42
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hcbph Re: Planning next project
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Here's my thoughts. Make 2 bars that are drilled with a pair of holes that match the hub lugs, bar needs to be at least as wide as the wheels. Drill a hole in each end big enough to thread a line through. Make a pair of stands that will fit under the knuckle and hold them at a defined height from the garage floor once the spring is unhooked.
Car on jack stands, wheels off, bolt the bars onto the hubs, align horizontal and set the parking brake with the stands under the knuckles after removing the spring on one side.
Tie on the plumb bobs, mark on the floor one side where they align. Replace the one camber arm with the one from the Banski kit, align the plumb bobs back to the marks on the floor. That should do that on one side, hook back up the spring and go onto the other side.
Now do the same on the other side. After the camber rod is done, replace the toe rod again aligning the marks from the plumb bobs. Hook the spring back up on that side and go back to the first side and do the toe rod.

If it works out correctly, I think I can have the camber rods and toe rods replaced and fairly close to aligned so I can get it into an alignment shop to get a 4 wheel alignment done.

I've done the swaybar bushings (1 left to do), this will replace all the other things that wear there (having already done the trailing arms) and should hopefully tighten up everything in the rear end.

That's my thoughts on how to do it. Seems logical to me and hopefully get everything close. If anyone has a better plan or improvement on it, I'm all ears.

Happy New Years everyone.

Paul
Posted on: 2016/12/30 11:45
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BillH Re: Planning next project
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It's way easier to go to Sears, buy an eight inch digital level, cut a piece of 1 inch square tubing about 15 inches that fits on the wheel lip. The magnetic base of the level will stick to the square tubing, = instant camber gauge plus a tool that can be used on other projects.

Rough toe can be set with 2 string lines hooked to 2 jack stands. The strings need to extend a foot or so past the car so you can measure the distance between them, they should be as parallel as possible and measuring out to each string from the centerline car helps. 20 minute set up.
Then you can measure toe with a steel rule to the tires.

Doing the adjustments with the spring unhooked will screw up everything.

If adjustments are made with the car jacked up, you must roll the car back and forth about 10 feet to take out the camber gain in the tires that happened when you let the jack down.

I use string lines all the time.

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jpg  2006-02-06 17-38-08_0001.JPG (895.73 KB)
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Posted on: 2016/12/30 15:18
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hcbph Re: Planning next project
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Thanks for the info. This is a first time for me so every piece of info is good. Problem I could think of while changing the camber rods out, with the spring hooked up, when the arm comes off wouldn't the knuckle try to swing on me? I would assume it's not a problem with the toe rods but the camber rods would scare me. Maybe it's not a problem but need to think that through first.

You got me to thinking on one thing though. I have a magnetic angle gauge. While doing the camber rods, might help make it easier to insure the angle is right if it's attached to the rotor while changing out the camber arms.
Posted on: 2016/12/30 17:09
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BillH Re: Planning next project
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Quote:

hcbph wrote:
Thanks for the info. This is a first time for me so every piece of info is good. Problem I could think of while changing the camber rods out, with the spring hooked up, when the arm comes off wouldn't the knuckle try to swing on me? I would assume it's not a problem with the toe rods but the camber rods would scare me. Maybe it's not a problem but need to think that through first.

You got me to thinking on one thing though. I have a magnetic angle gauge. While doing the camber rods, might help make it easier to insure the angle is right if it's attached to the rotor while changing out the camber arms.


Oh yea, I was just talking about alignment, you do have to drop the spring to install.

The angle gauge on the rotor could help but doing the thin with bolts thru the old rods and setting the new ones to the same length would be the way I'd go. And I'd change the toe rod at the same time.

Your alignment must be done with the full weight of the car on the ground. And you have to roll the car back and forth before starting and after each adjustment.

The only time you do any measurements with the spring unhooked is when your working on bump steer and that's a whole different world, generally not necessary on a street car.
Posted on: 2016/12/30 17:37
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istter1 Re: Planning next project
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Quote:

bogus wrote:
Options do exist... but I am not the one to ask! I get lost in all the details of offsets and crap.

I think CentralCoaster did a chart on what fits what regarding wheel upgrades.

You are right to do the upgrade. If nothing else, it will give you options for bigger brakes.

And yes, the tire size you have is going away, so jumping to 18" rims will fix that.


I will be curious, too, because I want to go to 18" rims.



I have 18 All around 10" on the rear on my 87. The ABS light will come on because the computer cain't celebrate it properly . Brakes work fine. 10" rear rubbed on suspension bolt in fender well. Only when going hard into right and left turns.
Posted on: 2016/12/30 18:19
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hcbph Re: Planning next project
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Quote:

BillH wrote: The angle gauge on the rotor could help but doing the thin with bolts thru the old rods and setting the new ones to the same length would be the way I'd go. And I'd change the toe rod at the same time.


The new ones and old camber bars aren't 'quite the same' setup. The old ones have adjustors on the center end of the arm, a concentric washer that's adjusted to set the angle while the new ones have a heim joint on each end. Not sure if they are short enough to use with that adjustable washer or not or even if I want to do it that way. The new one has a replacement plate that centers the bolt and does not have that adjustable washer. That's where I was thinking if the knuckle was supported and the angle and if using the plumb bobs line up after the swap out then it should be in the same position or pretty darn close.

You guys have given me some good stuff to think about. Leaning more to doing the camber rods then run it a little and then touch the toe bars. I'm wondering if I could back it up on some ramps if I could do some measuring and swap out the toe bars without touching anything other than swapping them out assuming I can get a 'slip on' fit as long as the car is supported on the wheels and hasn't moved? If nothing can move, seems like it might be an easier solution to get it close initially but still thinking it through.
Posted on: 2016/12/30 19:10
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hcbph Re: Planning next project
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Well just got an email back from the company I ordered the rims from. Said those I ordered were not currently available and didn't know when if ever they would be :-(

On well, have to look for something else later on then. At least I can work on the suspension once the toe rods come in.
Posted on: 2016/12/31 10:51
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BillH Re: Planning next project
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Quote:

hcbph wrote:
Quote:

BillH wrote: The angle gauge on the rotor could help but doing the thin with bolts thru the old rods and setting the new ones to the same length would be the way I'd go. And I'd change the toe rod at the same time.


The new ones and old camber bars aren't 'quite the same' setup. The old ones have adjustors on the center end of the arm, a concentric washer that's adjusted to set the angle while the new ones have a heim joint on each end. Not sure if they are short enough to use with that adjustable washer or not or even if I want to do it that way. The new one has a replacement plate that centers the bolt and does not have that adjustable washer. That's where I was thinking if the knuckle was supported and the angle and if using the plumb bobs line up after the swap out then it should be in the same position or pretty darn close.

You guys have given me some good stuff to think about. Leaning more to doing the camber rods then run it a little and then touch the toe bars. I'm wondering if I could back it up on some ramps if I could do some measuring and swap out the toe bars without touching anything other than swapping them out assuming I can get a 'slip on' fit as long as the car is supported on the wheels and hasn't moved? If nothing can move, seems like it might be an easier solution to get it close initially but still thinking it through.


Yea, the washer/adjuster.
Rather than messing with the plum bobs I would.

Measure the ride height with the car on the ground, doesn't need to be extremely precise. Measure from the fender lip down to the centerline of the wheel/hub.

Put it on jackstands, pull the wheels, put your mag angle gauge on the rotor. Jack the bearing hub up to the ride height you measured (should just barely come off the jackstand), read the angle,unhook the spring, Check to see if the angle is close to the old measurement.
Pull the old rods, adjust the ne camber rods for a slip fit.
Hook up the spring, jack up to ride height and check the angle.
This should get you close enough to drive to the alignment shop.
Posted on: 2016/12/31 15:27
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BillH Re: Planning next project
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If you want to set the toe REALLY easy, just make a set of toe plates. Again, it will get you to the alignment shop.

2 steel or aluminum pieces of sheetmetal (even smooth plywood in a pinch). Set up against the tires, on the ground. Only need to be about 8 inches high. Slots cut in both ends about to 1 1/2 in. off the ground. Slots need to be the same height front to rear and the same on both plates and just wide enough to slip a measuring tape thru them.

See the pic, you don't even need the angled part that sits on the floor if you clamp them to the tires of have a helper hold them up against the tire.

Try and keep them off any raised letters on the tire if possible. Measure the front and rear. The front measurement should be shorter than the rear at least 1/8th inch (1/16th toe in per side). Or whatever your shop manual suggests.
If your new rods were the same length, this will get you to the shop.

Full bodied race cars use these all the time at the track when they get the front wheels bumped and have to quickly reset the toe.

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jpg  toe.jpg (36.29 KB)
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Posted on: 2016/12/31 15:44
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istter1 Re: Planning next project
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those are nice
Posted on: 2016/12/31 16:52
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hcbph Re: Planning next project
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Quote:

BillH wrote:
If you want to set the toe REALLY easy, just make a set of toe plates. Again, it will get you to the alignment shop.

2 steel or aluminum pieces of sheetmetal (even smooth plywood in a pinch). Set up against the tires, on the ground. Only need to be about 8 inches high. Slots cut in both ends about to 1 1/2 in. off the ground. Slots need to be the same height front to rear and the same on both plates and just wide enough to slip a measuring tape thru them.

See the pic, you don't even need the angled part that sits on the floor if you clamp them to the tires of have a helper hold them up against the tire.

Try and keep them off any raised letters on the tire if possible. Measure the front and rear. The front measurement should be shorter than the rear at least 1/8th inch (1/16th toe in per side). Or whatever your shop manual suggests.
If your new rods were the same length, this will get you to the shop.

Full bodied race cars use these all the time at the track when they get the front wheels bumped and have to quickly reset the toe.


Pardon my ignorance, but I've looked at this some and keep coming up with issues. To change the toe rods I'm going to have to put the car up on jack stands to get enough room to work on it. How do you make those plates work with the car up in the air? I could see how this could work if you have a 4 post lift, quick lift or something comparable to get it up on it's wheels but that's not an option I have. Unfortunately I don't have that option, only jack stands or putting the car up on some form of cribbing, but that also will requiring jacking the car up to get them under the wheels. I could see something possible based on my original thoughts, something that bolts onto the hubs and has provisions for the plumb bobs I mentioned and maybe slotted to take tape measures like in those plates shown. Every option I come up with requires jacking up the car to be able to get under it.

What am I missing here?
Posted on: 2017/1/7 10:09
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BillH Re: Planning next project
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Quote:

hcbph wrote:
Quote:

BillH wrote:
If you want to set the toe REALLY easy, just make a set of toe plates. Again, it will get you to the alignment shop.

2 steel or aluminum pieces of sheetmetal (even smooth plywood in a pinch). Set up against the tires, on the ground. Only need to be about 8 inches high. Slots cut in both ends about to 1 1/2 in. off the ground. Slots need to be the same height front to rear and the same on both plates and just wide enough to slip a measuring tape thru them.

See the pic, you don't even need the angled part that sits on the floor if you clamp them to the tires of have a helper hold them up against the tire.

Try and keep them off any raised letters on the tire if possible. Measure the front and rear. The front measurement should be shorter than the rear at least 1/8th inch (1/16th toe in per side). Or whatever your shop manual suggests.
If your new rods were the same length, this will get you to the shop.

Full bodied race cars use these all the time at the track when they get the front wheels bumped and have to quickly reset the toe.


Pardon my ignorance, but I've looked at this some and keep coming up with issues. To change the toe rods I'm going to have to put the car up on jack stands to get enough room to work on it. How do you make those plates work with the car up in the air? I could see how this could work if you have a 4 post lift, quick lift or something comparable to get it up on it's wheels but that's not an option I have. Unfortunately I don't have that option, only jack stands or putting the car up on some form of cribbing, but that also will requiring jacking the car up to get them under the wheels. I could see something possible based on my original thoughts, something that bolts onto the hubs and has provisions for the plumb bobs I mentioned and maybe slotted to take tape measures like in those plates shown. Every option I come up with requires jacking up the car to be able to get under it.

What am I missing here?


First the angle on those plates does not go under the tire, they're just held against the tire with a clamp or by hand.
So, putting them back on and getting ready to measure takes about a minute.

You're absolutely right about jacking the car up to make a change. After you make a change, the car must be rolled 4 feet back then, 4 feet forward. This is done to take out the additional camber in the tires that happens when you let the jack down.
This is done every time you jack up the car. No matter what adjustment you make, the car has to be rolled before you take another measurement,

If you go to a retail alignment shop, you should see the tech roll the car every time he jacks it up.

When I do an alignment and corner weights on a race car, I roll the car back and forth from 10 to 40 times.
Take the gauges off, adjust, roll it, measure and do it over and over.

Plus, every adjustment you make could affect the other measurements. Change camber and you may also change the toe.
That's why you have to do a final measurement on everything.
Posted on: 2017/1/7 17:28
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hcbph Re: Planning next project
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Well my toe rod kit is supposed be here tomorrow. I'm taking some vacation next week and hope to get the camber rods and toe rods on next week, if not then maybe next month.

I also found my rims. I like the C6 ZR1 and Z06 ones and finally found a place that has the Z06 in chrome, 18x9.5 with a +40mm backspace. Got them on order and hopefully will have them next week also.

Once I have the suspension parts replaced, get a 4 wheel alignment done I'll be looking at getting tires for the rims.


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Posted on: 2017/1/11 11:37
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hcbph Re: Planning next project
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Well the rims came in and the last of the Banski Toe Rod parts are here. Weather is supposed up in the 40's for a few days so hoping to get the suspension parts on. Once that's done, then it's onto the alignment and after that the tires. Getting pumped up to get this done and back on the road.
Posted on: 2017/1/18 13:07
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hcbph Re: Planning next project
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Got the camber rods in, but going to do a little rework on the bottom end. Talking with Tom at Banski I found I have a difference in my car, unfortunately didn't figure it out early enough. Dimensions for the kit are for a 1.700" opening on the lower knuckle mount, mine turn out to be 1.640". I ended up having to use the belt sander to remove some material from the larger cone to get them in, but tore a boot in the process of trying to get them in.
Getting another boot and plan to pull them out and machine the depth of the cones for more clearance. I have some shims on order that I will then use to take up the space. If I ever have to pull them in the future for hub replacement I don't want to fight it like I did this week.

One nice thing about the kit, I used a digital angle gauge and measured before and after. I was able to set the same exact angle on the hub with just a 'minor' tweak of them. I used the trammel point method of initial adjustment like I did with the trailing arms and it worked out well. I did find some of my noise and sway when I got the old ones out, the bushings on the top of the camber rods were bad with one basically shot.

Once done with the camber rods then onto the toe rods. I did note that it looks like I'll have to pull the spare tire and mount out to gain the access I'll need to do them.

Here's a picture of the temporary rig I did to insure it's all in the right alignment once done. Digital, analog gauges plus 2 plumb bobs for good measure. May have been a bit overkill but it worked.

That's where I'm at.

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Posted on: 2017/1/22 13:50
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hcbph Re: Planning next project
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The boots are in. Received them, pulled the knuckle end off and got a successful reassembly. I had come up with the idea of using an alignment pin to keep everything in alignment during reassembly solved the problems I previously had. Turns out that later Banski docs suggested the same thing, so it seemed like a good plan and it worked out well.

Next step is the final one, doing the toe rods then it's off to the alignment shop.
Posted on: 2017/2/8 11:27
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hcbph Re: Planning next project
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Finished up installing the Banski setup today. Everything is in (trailing arms, camber rods and toe rods) and the car is scheduled for a 4 wheel alignment next thursday. Can hardly wait, then it's on to tires.

I couldn't wait, took it out for a couple of miles and based on 'seat of the pants', feels more solid.

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Posted on: 2017/2/18 21:25
Edited by hcbph on 2017/2/18 22:00:55
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hcbph Re: Planning next project
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Well the Banski Suspension is in, the 4 wheel alignment is done and the tires/rims are on. Nothing too glamorous as far as pictures, that will happen once it warms up and I can do some proper cleaning.

I'm happy with the look and fit of the wheels/tires and the way the car handles.

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Posted on: 2017/3/4 17:39
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hcbph Re: Planning next project
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Put some new KYB shocks on the car yesterday. Old ones weren't 'worn out' but definitely not up to the level of the new ones. Played with the air pressure in the tires as there isn't any official tire pressure for the new combination. Upped the pressure in the front to 38 and the rear to 40 psi. Seems to ride a little better than with 36 all the way around.
Posted on: 2017/4/2 10:04
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Matatk Re: Planning next project
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I could probably use some new shocks, myself. Went with KYBs last time but that's nearly 10 years ago. I'll try the more expensive Bilsteins next time.
Posted on: 2017/4/2 17:56
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