Posts only get too long when you begin repeating yourself or the pertinent facts. Your opening post was informative and seemed complete.

BTW, when you had the EGR off, did you happen to look into the passages the EGR uses. How clean were they. It could be all gummed up like the EGR valve itself was.

It really is a sad commentary on Dayton, Ohio






http://dayton.craigslist.org/cto/3817969528.html

Makes me miss my '68

Your car looks great in those pics!













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I like the color. Some guys are gonna look at it and know it's a factory color, but the won't figure out why it seems unusual.

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As far as the PCV routing I'd say the best thing is to stay with the OEM layout. Matt gave us a diagram above that's an excellent illustration.

I think your assessment of the path for idle air is a spot on counterpoint to my point. However, my last point to sticking to my side on this is that the cars were tuned for the air to travel the path that each respective year uses. The computer, in my belief, expects to see a certain set of values in the vacuum readings, and that's all it wants to go by. If we change that up, w/ the SR and the relatively cavernous plenum it has, the computer still expects the vacuum signals to conform, except now it has several times the amount of plenum volume that must be, "re-vacuumed," and just that much is enough to give the whole system some fits.

The rambling below are just some food for thought...

This all brings up something the tech said when I spoke to him.(see post #11) He related to me that he'd seen cars come in within any of the OBD generations of computer management that had the SES light on, and some having drivability issues. He emphasized his very first check is always the air filter. He claims it's surprising how many cars he finds are having trouble and all he has to do is replace the K&N air filter w/ an AC. I found this difficult to accept, but the man seemed very sincere in this information.

This made me wonder a good bit as to why this would be. The only conclusion I could come up with is the simple fact that a car is only a machine. All machines are obviously made up of components or parts. These parts ALL are manufactured to specifications that include tolerances. Tolerances can vary greatly. Since it's not practical for an automaker to apply 100% inspection to parts, I'm certain a percentage of these parts come thru that are outside of their respective tolerances. If anyone car or production run of cars contain enough of the parts in the engine's operating system, then the computer will be at the edge of it's allowable operating parameters and all it takes is something as simple as a free flow air filter to throw the engine management system into a fit and then send out the batsignal, resulting in only the SES light, or some unpleasant drivability issues.

You're probably right there Andy. It just seemed to be a chance to try to look like a big brain. Besides, I'm coming up on my 500th post and I'm doing a little post whoring to get there.

Thanks for the replies guys.
Andy, I think you're right that the oem should be good, but it's not adjustable for deferring in a cam. As far as cost goes, the Cloyes I chose is less than a Comp part, and Cloyes has always had a good name in timing sets. Thanks again for the help. If anyone has anything to add, i'll be glad to know what you think.

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Me Too!

Not that my opinion matters any more than others, but I'd say these guys are right about the use of a good synthetic oil. The waxes some oils produce are, I think, from those Dino-oils that have a paraffin base rather than a sulfur base. And I'm not too sure that any still have the sulfur base due to emission requirements. As for the use of Gunk products, I've used them and never been unhappy with them. I won't argue with a man who's used them extensively and happy as he's probably got his reasons to be so.
I do have one piece to offer as food for thought. ALL internal combustion cars burn oil. Oil is needed to lubricate the cylinders and the valve stems. If there was no oil remaining as the pistons drop back down the bore, then we'd have trouble. The reason people think their car uses no oil is that they pull out the dipstick and check it and it still says full. But my proposition on this is that as the oil is burned, it's replaced by the dirt and crud that turns it black. The cars that seemingly use oil are the ones that have for some reason begun to burn more thru the cylinders than it replaces with the crud. That's what we see when we change oil. BTW, as we all know I'm sure, if the oil doesn't come out black, it's not doing it's job, but rather it's allowing the contaminants to drop out of the oil's suspension and lay inside the pan, valve covers, etc.
The best thing about syn-oil is that they "strip" down oil and then chemically "build" it however they need to for the application. Where-as w/ dino-oil, all you can really do is use what nature provides and add things to it, but your still left with a dino-oil.

All this is just my opinion, and certainly worth every penny you've paid for it.

I'm slowly, finally getting the last of my stuff together for my buildup, and I'm wondering about timing sets. My car only has about 28,000 miles on it, certainly not enough to warrant a change of timing sets, but on the advice of the shop that did the cam dr. for me, I'm looking to put it in 4* advance.
BTW, it's a GM hotcam. I'm looking at this set but I have one big question.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Cloyes/220/9-3545X9/10002/-1

In the past I've understood that some clearanceing is needed for double rollers. I DON'T want to have to do that. What do you guy think. As always, I need to take into account that it's for an engine that's an OEM hydraulic roller.

Thanks in advance for any help that's offered.

CC, you didn't mention the year of your friends car, but mine's an "88. My answer notes the possible difference that are present between the Stock and SuperRam intakes. The later L98 plenums idle air takes a path more similar to that of the SR. But then again, you probably already know this stuff much better than I do.

I don't know if I solved the entire problem yet, but I'm certain the PCV has helped a good bit. I've also wondered about my SR causing some of this. The only thing I can come up with is the difference between the SR and the stock plenum. Mines an '88, so the idle air goes past the IAC and into the plenum passage on the underside of the stock plenum. From there it goes thru the dedicated tube on the runners and on into the secret passage-ways in the base and come up within an inch or two before the manifold gets to the head. On the SR, the idle air comes out into the plenum directly behind the throttle body and into the main plenum.

"IF", this causes a difference in the engine idle, my thoughts are that it's because the stock idle passages offer a more finite, and maybe more measured, amount of air that the engine breathes from at idle while the main plenum remains at more of a partial vacuum state. I don't have anything to back this up, but FWIW, those are some thoughts to offer.

I'm just upset that this sequester crap has now cost us HCF!

Wowweewow-wow-wow!!!! Nice collection!

What you're saying about the diagnostic equipment is a fact I thought might eventually come out. I guess I was just hoping there'd be something I didn't know about, as so often happens.

As far as a laptop goes, that would probably help, but when it comes right down to it, I'm not sure I'd understand what I'd be looking at if I had that kind of setup.

As far as idle quality and RPM at idle, my car is currently stock, but I have some mods I wanna do and I want to know it's right before I change it all over. I've got a nice set of AFR 195's I got thru Jim Barth, and a NIB GM Hotcam, 1.6 Comp rockers,and some 30lb injectors. I'm trying to save up to get the rest of my gaskets, some $$ for a bit-o-milling on the heads for compression, and $$ for a local dyno-tuner I found. And to top it off, all this is in a race to see what happens as I'm also staring at a left knee replacement this year. As a matter of fact, I have to see the Dr. about ten hours from right now. Wish me luck.

VetteOz-- I'm all for maybe getting a cable and a laptop. Maybe I'm should clarify something. I'm hoping to find some kind of diagnostic tool that'll let me see what each cylinder is doing as it's doing it. If the #8 plug is bad or the coil is breaking down, I wanna know so I can get the right part without having to end up replacing all kinds of stuff before I find out by proce$$ of elimination. That's what I'm hoping to find. I'm a pretty impatient individual and have my issues with obsessiveness. Right now I don't believe I'm having issues with a vacuum leak as I've got better control of the minimum idle setting. That was being screwed up by the non-GM pcv valve along with min. idle setting causing a stalling condition. (Read above posts) Today I went and bought a tachometer and hooked it up. It shows my dash tach is reading somewhere around 100+ RPM high under 1000 RPM. I reset the minimum idle (again) and and it seems to be better.

BUT,,,,,,,, I think I'm detecting a stumble in the engine from what "SEEMS" like an intermitant miss. That's why I'd like to get some kind of diagnostic piece to show instant info as to what each cylinder is doing. I'm pretty sure you guys know a lot more than I do regarding all the ins-n-outs with the OBD1 stuff, so I'm glad to hear your suggestions.

Checking the timing was a secondary thing to my other post, "Throttle body connections." I didn't expect it to be too far off, but I was just checking it to make sure. Here's a link to the other thread

I thought the price was probably a bit out of line. I'll keep looking.

Actually I'm satisfied that the car is not so much the culprit here. I was out by the mall and stopped in at Sears. They had one of these lights that had been opened. The tool guy was nice enough to let me look thru the manual. I had things hooked up to the car as outlined in the manual. Red connector to battery positive, Black to engine ground, and of course the inductive clamp was on the #1 wire. I did see a blurb on troubleshooting that says it can have trouble with copper core plug wires, and to test it, replace the #1 with a resistance type wire. To test that theory. I hooked it up to our Y2K Suburban to see if any tach reading came on. No Luck.
I don't think I have copper core plug wires on the Vette, but I did this to see if there was a diff between cars enough to allow at least the tach feature to work. Again, no luck. So I guess the only thing left to do is contact sears repair and see if there's anything that can be done.
The adventure continues..........

While digging and searching for the manual I ran across my 40yr. old Penske TL. It's the old kind that connects inline w/ the plug wire. It still works, and the timing on the Vette is rock steady around 8* btdc. So, it looks like the "new" one will have to have more thought put into it. It might be junk. I don't know, but it cost enough to keep me from just tossing it until i can run across a manual.

Thanks for your time on this.

I put this up over in tech as well. I really need to get this going. Can anyone help?

I just went to check the timing on my vette. After disconnecting the timing connecter, my mark was all over the place. It may be my POS sears timing light. I can't seem to find my instruction manual. anyone have one of these so you can give me a bit of insight? I thought it would be a fairly straightforward tool to use.

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-profes ... ECT=false&s_tnt=39869:4:0

Sears has no way to offer any help. Of course. So either I'm an idiot that can't use a light, or my TL is a POS. Thanks in advance for any help.

I just went to check the timing on my vette. After disconnecting the timing connecter, my mark was all over the place. It may be my POS sears timing light. I can't seem to find my instruction manual. anyone have one of these so you can give me a bit of insight? I thought it would be a fairly straightforward tool to use.

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-profes ... ECT=false&s_tnt=39869:4:0

Sears has no way to offer any help. Of course. So either I'm an idiot that can't use a light, or my TL is a POS. Thanks in advance for any help.

The stalling has been abated a good bit, but I'm not entirely comfortable w/ the way it behaves under those same conditions. It seems as if it still may want to try to stall, but just doesn't. The other night I did the minimum idle setting, but that was using the dash tach. I'm hoping to find an inductive, handheld tach to use that would be more accurate. Also, I would have double checked the TPS voltage, but my meter's batteries were dead.
Matt, was this the type of piece your talking about for a diagnostic tool? Does it look to be as complete as I would need it?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-TECH-1-SCA ... sh=item4172f13a07&vxp=mtr

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Mine was set up correctly all along. I was just too busy overthinking the whole thing to get it right. As per the question, As sitting in the driver seat, the left side is where it was located. And once again I'm guilty of not thinking while overthinking. If that makes any sense. I do this this kind of crap all the time, I get so damned focused on something, I forget to think of how I'm describing it. I'm sorry for the confusion. I think I need to change my username to "DyslexoBob." That's a name that more than one person has given me.

Ok, I'll take these as they came.
Matt, the diagram in post #8 is correct, and my lines are configured that way.
Also, as in post #9, you are again correct, and my pass side valve cover hose does connect to the top/large fitting on the t-body.

And finally to OZ, yes there's vacuum at the PCV and it does shut when I put a finger over it. You are also correct. After reading and re-reading all our postings, what you were stating began to sink in. While I didn't have as complete an understanding as I do now that you've described it, I think I was on the right track afterall. Thanks for the description and clarification of the PCV system.

I guess I'm once again guilty of overthinking things on this one.

Also, as it would happen, a local dealer here had an AC-DELCO PCV in stock so I bought it. My aftermarket part has the letter "F" on it's piston, and the AC part has "E" on it. So if there's an actual industry standard, I'm thinking there's differences in weight, length, spring tension, and flow characteristics that make the AC unit necessary. None of the aftermarket units had the letter "E". They all had an "F", if anything at all. and none of the aftermarket valves seemed to have the same ability to close itself like the AC.

While at the dealer, I was able to speak w/ a tech regarding PCV systems, and he also helped set me back on the right path. At his suggestion, I put in the new PCV, then I did the "Set Minimum Idle" procedure as in the FSM. Once done, I notice things were better (W/ AC off), but not cured as the engine would still stall (w/ A/C on) after a blip of the gas, or after letting off from a steady RPM. I had a can Ether, so I sprayed around as much of the SuperRam as I could searching for vacuum leaks. I didn't detect any. Finally, I shut off the engine and disconnected the Neg battery cable to clear any possible codes. After a bit, I re-connected and started back up, and this time w/ the AC on, it didn't seem to wanna die on me with the blip of the gas or from a steady rpm with a let off as if stopping at a light. So who knows? Maybe I'm onto something here? I really need to get it licensed and insured so I can drive it a bit. Also, I'm wondering if I detected a bit of a miss in the engine as maybe a plug or two were intermittently misfiring.
So that's another possible idea to look at. I'm not sure if they can do it, but I'm wondering if the Chevy dlr can hook this up to a scope or diagnostic computer to determine if there is in fact something misfiring.

OR, is there an available scan tool for a price that's practical for guys like us? Any suggestions? I've got the Innova tool, but I think it only goes as far as trouble codes for the old OBD1 cars like the early C4's. Any ideas on good scanners?

Geez, it's well after 3am again. I gotta get some sleep for a change.

For some reason the "EDIT" button isn't on my posts, so I'll add another.

Back to Vetteoz's suggestion. After getting some sleep, I think I see your point. Obviously, the PCV system needs a source at normal atmosphere to draw from in order to then pull thru the crankcase. The difficulty I see here, is that with the valve I have, and the the current routing of hoses, the PCV will constantly be pulled open. (I've checked several sources and their PCV's are alike.) With the PCV open at high vacuum, such as when idling or other periods when throttle blades are suddenly closed, the open valve allows air to enter the intake causing a lean condition causing stumble or stalling.

This whole thing makes me think :
1) my t-body vacuum connections are incorrect and need to be switched, OR

2) Both the FSM and the Haynes manuals diagrams are incorrect by showing the PCV on the wrong valve cover, OR

3) The aftermarket is all wrong in the PCV's they're selling us.


OK, so NOW the edit button come on?

Thanks for that OZ, you posted that as I was writing my 2nd post. I'm not looking for equal vacuum on each side, but with the way things are hooked up now, there's not enough vacuum to actually operate the PCV valve. The pcv closes off towards the bottom of the valve w/ high vacuum and opens w/ low vacuum when the spring in the valve overcomes light vacuum and allows it to open. The valve ,IF I understand it correctly, is to be open during periods of lower vacuum (like highway speeds) since times of high vacuum such as idling would allow excess air into the plenum without the benefit of a proper air/fuel ratio, causing the issues at hand.
I'm not trying to argue w/ anyone after you've gone to the trouble of helping, I'm just trying to relay how it is that I understand the operation of the PCV valve.

I just re-read my 1st post, so let me try to boil it down.

Rt side PCV breather tube is hooked up to top/large port of t-body that leads to opening in front of throttle blades. Been this way for a good long while.
The lower/smaller port is currently connected to the 5/16's line that leads to the Evaporative system. That port pulls raw vacuum from directly behind the throttle blades.
There is a small 3/16 line connected to the bottom left of the t-body, and it goes to the Evap system as well. That port draws from in front of the throttle blades, and due to it's size, placement and direction of the line it feeds, is not being questioned in this topic.

The car will idle, but there's little if any vacuum at the large port the tube is on in order to operate the PCV. Also, there have been times when the car would sit and hunt for a steady idle as the RPM would rise and fall more and more. It would get to where it would falter between rising RPM's and then falter again, repeating this a few times and finally stall.

The IAC valve has been reset several times.

Thinking back to my '68 Vette, my PCV was hooked up to the plenum below the base of the carb to get full vacuum. So was my '67 Camaro beater. I guess the problem I'm having with these connections is that the two on the right side of the t-body are so different in size and that the current connections actually fit the size of the ports they're on.

Again, thanks in advance for your help Andy.

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It's an '88, but I'm thinking (hoping) the early C4 TPI cars should've been similar.

This is regarding EARLY C4 vacuum/PCV and EVAP connections.

Some time ago, I created a thread regarding my Vette stalling out when I got off the highway and stopped, and at other inappropriate times. It's not only a pain in the but, It's dangerous as I lose my power brakes without warning, and it gets much harder to steer as well. This week I've been looking into it some more and I seem to recall someone asking the question about my PCV working correctly. I put a new PCV valve on and it did not seem to be the answer. So this week as I'm messing with it, I got out BOTH the haynes and FSM and they both said the same thing almost word-for-word as to how the PCV works. With the engine warm, and at idle, I get plenty of vacuum at the PCV, and I get a decent pull at the breather fitting on the right valve cover going in toward the the crankcase and ultimately to the PCV. BUT, and this is where it caught me, the vacuum should be pulling more toward the throttle body from the right side v-c fitting! OK, if this is true, it's possible that at some point I got my vacuum connections bass-ackwards. Currently, my PCV line to the right valve cover is connected to the top, or larger, vacuum connection on the right side of the T-body. It draws air from in front of the throttle blades. And again, with the engine idling, it seems to have almost NO vacuum draw from that port. My EVAP system vacuum line is currently connected to the lower, or smaller, connection and draws vacuum from behind the throttle blades. Is this the correct configuration, or did I at some point get them switched w/ each other?

I've looked thru both books for better diagrams/descriptions and I only found one pic in the haynes that showed what appeared to have the T-body lower connection going to the PCV, and the EVAP connection going to the top.
I need some help here guys, how are your hooked up on you early TPI C4's?

Thanks for any help you can offer.......

We get ATT U-verse for Internet, Land Line, 4 mobile phones(one of those has a data pkg), and TV medium pkg (no HBO) all for just $350/month. My Property taxes are almost that, but they don't surf the 'net, or reach out and touch anyone.

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If they get upset that easily then we probably didn't want to deal with them on other levels either. BTW Tommy, this a pretty nice selection today. Well done.

Don't mean to step on any toes here by starting this one, but I thought a funny one might help you guys get going today. As I write this, it's about 2:45ish here. A couple hours ago I got home to find RR#2 asleep on my side of the sack. Missuz Bob sez he got freaked out watching "Dawn of the dead" or one of those Zombie flicks and he couldn't go to sleep being alone. So I slowly roust him and as he looks around he starts to get up on his, "rubber," knees.
Just as he turns to look at me in the darkened bedroom I just casually had to ask, "Can I eat yer brains?" Man... his head whipped back at me and his eyeballs were as big as hubcaps! At he same time he brought up both fists and was he ever ready to stop me from chowing down on his noggin! And the whole time he's wobbling back and forth on those shaky assed legs! I started to laugh, he wanted to fight, and Mrs Bob got mad but was laughing too. It was all we could do to get him settled back down to go back to sleep. I'm still not sure if I get to sleep in my own rack tonight, but it was worth it!

You guys have a good Thursday.

I normally just skim over the daily chat, but today I'll add a bit.
The last of our normal family type neighbors just put up a, "for sale," sign. I knew we shoulda moved instead of remodeling 8 years ago.
As for me, I'll be out cutting grass to keep up the property values.

Sorta like she's saying, "Howdy....Howdy....Howdy...."

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I wasn't aware of the "long form," or it's presentation by the Hawaii Gov. But the whole birther thing is not really the topic here. As for me, I do have my suspicions, but that topic is really a VERRRY dead horse, and no longer worthy of anyone's time or trouble. As far as what I wrote regarding your post, I'm figuring you're more accurate than the offending email that I started the thread with. When I answered you it was in the feeling that you had found more accurate info thru google than I was able to. For some reason my searches for info usually end more in frustration than in fact. Sorry for the confusion.

Thanks for the time it took you guys to answer this. Andy, I'm like you, I absolutely hate the way both sides of the political aisle limit the amount of truth they tell in order to falsely twist the public mindset in one direction or another. It does nothing but screw up the works of getting things done.

I did spend more than 15 seconds on google and all I found were pages that confirmed this as true. Apparently I must've searched it with terms that didn't work to get something truthful.

As far as the "birthers" go, I just find it hard to believe that a true American citizen wouldn't have rapidly come forth with exhaustive proof of American birth just for the pleasure of telling people to stick it their ear. In short, what's he hiding?

As for President o'bama, I like 'cause he's irish.

I got the following in an email. After some looking, it seems to be real, but I'm not sure it hasn't been amended or struck from the "obamacare" bill yet. Some of you guys seem to ferret out internet info better than I, so whaddya think, is it going to be in effect in 2014? I sure hope not.
__________

What does this word mean?
Dhimmitude

The word "Dhimmitude" is found in the new health care bill;
so what does it mean?

Thought this was interesting and worth passing on.

Obama used it in the health care bill.
Now isn't this interesting?
It is also included in the health care law.

Dhimmitude -- I had never heard the word until now. I typed it into Google and started reading. Pretty interesting. It's on page 107 of the healthcare bill. I looked this up on Google and yep, it exists.. It is a REAL word.

Dhimmitude is the Muslim system of controlling non-Muslim populations conquered through jihad (Holy War). Specifically, it is the TAXING of non-Muslims in exchange for tolerating their presence AND as a coercive means of converting conquered remnants to Islam.

ObamaCare allows the establishment of Dhimmitude and Sharia Muslim diktat in the United States . Muslims are specifically exempted from the government mandate to purchase insurance, and also from the penalty tax for being uninsured. Islam considers insurance to be "gambling", "risk-taking", and "usury" and is thus banned. Muslims are specifically granted exemption based on this.


How convenient. So I, as a Christian, will have crippling IRS liens placed against all of my assets, including real estate, cattle, and even accounts receivable, and will face hard prison time because I refuse to buy insurance or pay the penalty tax. Meanwhile, Louis Farrakhan will have no such penalty and will have 100% of his health insurance needs paid for by the de facto government insurance. Non-Muslims will be paying a tax to subsidize Muslims. This is Dhimmitude.

I recommend sending this on to your contacts.
American citizens need to know about it --


snopes.com: Health Insurance Exemptions
Apr 13, 2010 ... Dhimmitude is the Muslim system of controlling non-muslim populations ... The ObamaCare bill is the establishment of Dhimmitude and Sharia ...
www.snopes.com/politics/medical/exemptions.asp

Keep this going. Every non-Muslim in the United

States of America needs to know about it
_____________________________

If you lack knowledge, go to school. If you lack wisdom, get on your knees. “O righteous God,
who searches minds and hearts,
bring to an end the violence of the wicked
and make the righteous secure.” — Psalm 7:9

We just rec'd news that there's a new member in my wife's family. We haven't gotten any pics, but Evelyn Grace was born yesterday and weighs 4lbs. 10oz. She was early due to some idiot that couldn't stop his car in time, but IS healthy and spending some time in the NICU. This addition is part of...

My wife and siblings, 11 surviving...
29 grandchildren from them...
And now, 32 great grandchildren with 2 future draft choices on the way for this year.

Me and the missuz have been together for 30+ years, and I still need a program to keep all the players straight.

How 'bout making it a "HCTDW"? (Hot Chick Three Day Weekend)

So far I like the Springsteen song, the humor of squirrels in the pants, and the 65 Mustang. But I really don't like having to go to work today.

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Some of us still have them up!

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Is that the dog or girlfriend?

(sorry, Steve, he just made it TOOO easy)

Well guys, today I start out on another year of, of,...what ever it is I do. They say it's not the age, but the mileage that counts. In my case I think it's getting to be both 'cause the missus says the exhaust is getting worse everyday.
Have a good one guys.

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Christmas came early for you. Care packages from Summit/Jegs are always fun to get!

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I agree. Either that, or get him an '84 auto for graduation.

We discuss Corvettes plenty here. Most guys much more than I do. The thread you're in is in a section of the Guru known as, "Off Topic." Even on the, "Other forum," where getting the boot is something of a right of passage, they too have an, "Off Topic," section. If you decide to leave this forum, that's obviously your choice. But after posting w/ these guys, and having spoken directly with some on the phone, I do I respectfully believe it would be to your disadvantage to quit the, "Guru."

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmm.....beer

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Thanks Andy, that's good info. I don't lift mine up too much. B4 the QL I used my ramps for oil changes etc...
When I was at Pepboys I saw they had a scissor jack that was hydraulically operated. It has good range, and the hyd part makes it easier to use than a ratchet on a lift screw. I guess now is when I face the hardest part of the whole thing, actually choosing and making a decision. I don't know about you guys, but that's the worst part for me. Not just the decision, but because I've made wrong choices before that I couldn't return, so then I was stuck with a non-working solution and had to save up the money to try something else.