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screamin_conure OBD1 "Mystery timing"???
Senior Guru
Northwest Indiana
346 Posts
Member since:
2009/10/20 20:55



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Gurus,

Got a question regarding a strange phenomenon that I've recently discovered that may or may not apply to my '92 LT1/A4 coupe. I've seen a few posts on other forums, mostly the F-body sites, talking about "mystery timing" or what is essentially erroneous spark advance/retardation under acceleration that some OBD1-equipped vehicles have been prone to have. 

About a year and a half ago, I put a set of 23 lb. Bosch III injectors from FIC in my '92 coupe. I have a scan tool, and with the 23# units, my BLMs were a bit on the lean side (135 - 140). Last spring, I had a guy on the web do an "e-mail tune" for me where I was sending him Datamaster logs from my car, and he was sending me .bin files that I burned to a chip and installed in my ECM. We got the BLMs down to normal range (128 +/- 10) and the car ran fine all season, but last year at our club's track day, my car ran a best E.T. of a 14.36 which I felt was way off from what a healthy LT1 coupe should run. It was a fairly warm day that day, but other LT1 C4s were in the mid-to-high 13's. I could feel my car's power falling off around mid-track, and to me it almost had the feeling of the transmission slipping.

Over the winter, I've been teaching myself how to use TunerPro RT and going back and looking at the tune that the tuner provided me and comparing it to a stock tune.  I've also been going over the Datamaster logs that I took last spring and summer that had the new tune in place. In addition to the fueling changes, the tuner also played around a bit with the timing tables in the tune, giving me several degrees of additional advance throughout the mid-to-upper RPM ranges. In a couple of the datalogs, I can see where I started to register some knock right around 4,000 RPMs, and saw the ECM making the corresponding adjustment and pulling out anywhere from 3 to 5 degrees of advance. Putting 2 and 2 together now, I'm thinking that the drop in power I was feeling wasn't the trans slipping, but the ECM pulling timing out as the car was under WOT.

So my first inclination was that the tuner just had the timing tables too far advanced. Then I started reading about this "mystery timing" that some folks have come across where the ECM simply adds and/or pulls several degrees of timing for no apparent reason at all. I've learned that the early Y and F-body LT1 ECMs had tunes that transferred timing adjustments to a secondary "extended" table at exactly 4,000 RPMs, and a couple folks that I've talked to locally say that's where the issue might be coming from. In looking at my datalogs, it's right about at the 4,000 RPM point where the knock readings start and my timing gets pulled back.

Personally, I think this "mystery timing" is a bunch of malarky, and I think that my situation is really due to timing tables that are just too advanced for an otherwise stock LT1. This spring, I'm planning to go back to my original 24 lb. Lucas OEM-style injectors, and back to the factory tune and plan to do some more logging to see if there is a difference between the two setups. I was just wondering if anyone else had ever heard about this "mystery timing" thing.

Thanks!

Ron

Posted on: 2012/2/10 21:29
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Matatk Re: OBD1 "Mystery timing"???
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SW Chicago Burbs
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I know very little about the tuning tables, I've never gotten too far involved in them.

Have you been able to locate the other table people claim the car switches to at 4000 rpms?

I know that the bosch IIIs fire differently than the stock style injectors and a tune must amended to compensate for the differences. I wonder how much is related to that?

Matthew
Posted on: 2012/2/10 23:15
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tjpreul Re: OBD1 "Mystery timing"???
Elite Guru
Columbia, MO
1103 Posts
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What octane do you use and how often do you fill up. They do have a preset tune for when wot. If you were getting a spark knock it may be a fuel issue.
Posted on: 2012/2/11 3:00
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bogus Re: OBD1 "Mystery timing"???
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
San Pedro, CA
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Your injectors are not Lucas - they are Multec.

GM used Multecs in these things for years.

I was talking to Jon at FIC recently. They found a problem with the Bosch injectors in reference to how the Multecs operate over their duty cycle range.

In short, the Multecs are NOT linear (if I remember rightly). They have modified the Bosch III's to work in the same manner.

Call Jon at FIC on Monday and talk to him about this.
Posted on: 2012/2/11 5:31
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Woodstock Re: OBD1 "Mystery timing"???
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Bremen/Germany
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Earlier L98 engines like 2° advance across the board a lot, not so much the LT1.
LT1 stock engines rarely show spark knock. I figured the spark table must be on the conservative side, but no gain could be achieved by advancing timing. The LT1 owner couldn't feel a difference, so we pulled it out again.

Bosch injectors require some adjustments in PW correction vs. battery volts, because they have a lower resistance. I doubt anything can be done to the injector itself.
Posted on: 2012/2/12 14:29
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screamin_conure Re: OBD1 "Mystery timing"???
Senior Guru
Northwest Indiana
346 Posts
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2009/10/20 20:55



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Thanks for the replies guys.

@Matt - The tables for spark advance are simply called "Main Spark Advance Vs. RPM Vs. Load" and "Main Spark Advance Vs. RPM Vs. Load (EXT)". The first one covers the RPM range of 0 through 4,000 RPMs, and the (EXT) version covers the RPM range of 4,000 RPMs through 7,500. Not sure why the GM engineers broke that into two tables instead of keeping it all in one. Perhaps due to a limitation in the total bits and bytes those ECMs were capable of handling at one time, I don't know. Either way, the ECM makes a seamless transition between the two tables as the RPMs cross over.

@TJ - I always run premium. Most of the stations in my area only offer 91 octane, but there is one that isn't very convenient for me that offers 93. I have to say (and I don't know if this is just a "placebo effect"), the car FEELS like it runs better on the 93 (i.e., smoother idle, more power, etc.). I've also been kicking around the idea of trying some 104+ Octane Boost in the spring too, but I've heard both good and bad about that stuff, and to me, it just seems like another way for a company to separate someone from their money.

@Andy - Actually, the original Multecs were long gone when I bought the car, and these are the injectors that were in it: http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=01D042x&eq=&Tp=. One of the previous owners must have ran into issues with the Multecs and canned them. I think Standard Motor Products now makes those injectors, so I guess I was incorrect in calling them "Lucas" injectors. It appears that they are closest in spec to the original Multecs that you're likely to find.

@Woodstock - Yep, agree 100%. The LT1 timing tables are fairly conservative, and probably rightfully so given the temps that those engines usually run at. And I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the "Injector PW Correction Vs. Battery Voltage" table needing adjustment with the Bosch IIIs.

I'm not really looking at this as an injector issue per se. It's just that I've modified my tune to accomodate a completely different style of injector from what the car was equipped with from the factory, and now I'm seeing an issue that is likely related to the tune, and not the injector. The only reason that I want to go back to my original injectors is for experimental purposes to see if I'm still getting any knock. They are closest in overall spec to the factory Multecs and should be 100% compatible with the factory tune, whereas with the Bosch IIIs, that's not necessarily the case. It would more or less be "going back to ground zero" to see if the problem still exists. I guess another thing I could try is to leave the Bosch IIIs in, and copy the timing tables from the factory tune into the tune that the tuner provided me, but leave the changes that he made for fueling (i.e., "Injector Flow Rate", "Volumetric Efficiency Vs. RPM Vs. MAP", etc.), burn that to a new chip and then datalog to see if I'm still getting knock and retard.
Posted on: 2012/2/12 15:06
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