bam wrote:
Thanks.
I understand 1. PE vs RPM table, ok.
however 2) you lost me on this. Are you sure VE makes a new bin file because the version I have made a new text document that has to be opened with a word processor. The version of cats I have can't open it as far as I know. What are "peaks and troughs"? I presume they are related to rich and lean but how and what do they mean? Is high rich or lean? What I was trying to ask is; How does the new VE table created in the text document by VE Master get into the bin file, do you compare the two and manually make the changes? or am I missing something simple.

djxib wrote:
Quote:

bam wrote:
Thanks.
I understand 1. PE vs RPM table, ok.
however 2) you lost me on this. Are you sure VE makes a new bin file because the version I have made a new text document that has to be opened with a word processor. The version of cats I have can't open it as far as I know. What are "peaks and troughs"? I presume they are related to rich and lean but how and what do they mean? Is high rich or lean? What I was trying to ask is; How does the new VE table created in the text document by VE Master get into the bin file, do you compare the two and manually make the changes? or am I missing something simple.

Hmm (scratches head). The version of VE Master that I use actually takes the old BIN file and creates a new one based on the data log. If your version creates a text file you'll have to take the new values and key them manually into your BIN.

Blade_1 wrote:
Quote:

djxib wrote:
Quote:

bam wrote:
Thanks.
I understand 1. PE vs RPM table, ok.
however 2) you lost me on this. Are you sure VE makes a new bin file because the version I have made a new text document that has to be opened with a word processor. The version of cats I have can't open it as far as I know. What are "peaks and troughs"? I presume they are related to rich and lean but how and what do they mean? Is high rich or lean? What I was trying to ask is; How does the new VE table created in the text document by VE Master get into the bin file, do you compare the two and manually make the changes? or am I missing something simple.

Hmm (scratches head). The version of VE Master that I use actually takes the old BIN file and creates a new one based on the data log. If your version creates a text file you'll have to take the new values and key them manually into your BIN.

This is critical OP.

Was the car 'in tune' when the mods were done???

If the 'new BIN' was created with an out of tune engine, you might never get it right.

Mods are fine, BUT YOU NEED BASELINE SPECS integrated into the new BIN, not specs for a degraded tune...

bam wrote:
Quote:

Blade_1 wrote:
Quote:

djxib wrote:
Quote:

bam wrote:
Thanks.
I understand 1. PE vs RPM table, ok.
however 2) you lost me on this. Are you sure VE makes a new bin file because the version I have made a new text document that has to be opened with a word processor. The version of cats I have can't open it as far as I know. What are "peaks and troughs"? I presume they are related to rich and lean but how and what do they mean? Is high rich or lean? What I was trying to ask is; How does the new VE table created in the text document by VE Master get into the bin file, do you compare the two and manually make the changes? or am I missing something simple.

Hmm (scratches head). The version of VE Master that I use actually takes the old BIN file and creates a new one based on the data log. If your version creates a text file you'll have to take the new values and key them manually into your BIN.

This is critical OP.

Was the car 'in tune' when the mods were done???

If the 'new BIN' was created with an out of tune engine, you might never get it right.

Mods are fine, BUT YOU NEED BASELINE SPECS integrated into the new BIN, not specs for a degraded tune...

"was the car 'in tune' when mods were done" No, after the mods it needed to be tuned, I kinda thought that would be obvious, am I missing something here?

"If the 'new BIN' was created with an out of tune engine..." Why would you create a new BIN with the engine already being in tune, what is the purpose? Maybe you missed something, I am trying to tune my engine for new mods. Maybe I am really missing something here, I must be or I would understand your comments more.

"Mods are fine, BUT YOU NEED BASELINE SPECS ..." By base line do you mean the original stock tune from the factory? (grab some hair, pull some out, this gets pretty frustrating) I have no idea what you are talking about here, could you be a little more specific? Thanks

******** Fuel trim table statistics ********

Cell # recs map range rpm range
min LTerm/avg LTerm/max LTerm (left and right)

0: 58 map: 0 - 35, rpm: 0 - 1800
109/112.466/117

1: 163 map: 0 - 35, rpm: 1800 - 2000
93/102.564/128

2: 69 map: 0 - 35, rpm: 2000 - 2200
98/108.029/125

3: 10 map: 0 - 35, rpm: 2200 - 7000
123/127.5/128

4: 135 map: 35 - 45, rpm: 0 - 1800
104/111.681/128

5: 49 map: 35 - 45, rpm: 1800 - 2000
110/116.918/127

6: 69 map: 35 - 45, rpm: 2000 - 2200
102/109.884/128

7: 11 map: 35 - 45, rpm: 2200 - 7000
126/126.727/127

8: 47 map: 45 - 55, rpm: 0 - 1800
114/122.851/128

9: 4 map: 45 - 55, rpm: 1800 - 2000
128/128/128

10: 0 map: 45 - 55, rpm: 2000 - 2200

11: 2 map: 45 - 55, rpm: 2200 - 7000
128/128/128

12: 17 map: 55 - 104, rpm: 0 - 1800
125/127.588/128

13: 0 map: 55 - 104, rpm: 1800 - 2000

14: 0 map: 55 - 104, rpm: 2000 - 2200

15: 9 map: 55 - 104, rpm: 2200 - 7000
127/127.889/128

bam wrote:
1) WOT is too rich, initial is running in the 10-11's then pulls back to very low 12's. Sometimes there is a hesitiation when floored, after that pulls really hard. I want to lean it out just a little at a time, how do I do that?
2)When using VE master does it make changes to the tune itself or do I have to go back into the tune and do it myself manually?
3)Initial tip in when accelerating (part throtle) is very lean, around 15.8 up into the 16's then pretty quickly settles down to 14.7 under part throttle acceleration, how can I make the initial tip in a little richer.
I have a wide band installed, and I data log with Datamaster.
Thanks for any help.

bam wrote:
somehow the data log won't load as an attachment?? Can I email it to you? Send me a PM with your email and I will send it.

Also new injectors from FIC, Bosh 3's at the stock 24lb rating.

******** Fuel trim table statistics ********

Cell # recs map range rpm range
min LTerm/avg LTerm/max LTerm (left and right)

0: 58 map: 0 - 35, rpm: 0 - 1800
109/112.466/117

1: 163 map: 0 - 35, rpm: 1800 - 2000
93/102.564/128

2: 69 map: 0 - 35, rpm: 2000 - 2200
98/108.029/125

3: 10 map: 0 - 35, rpm: 2200 - 7000
123/127.5/128

4: 135 map: 35 - 45, rpm: 0 - 1800
104/111.681/128

5: 49 map: 35 - 45, rpm: 1800 - 2000
110/116.918/127

6: 69 map: 35 - 45, rpm: 2000 - 2200
102/109.884/128

7: 11 map: 35 - 45, rpm: 2200 - 7000
126/126.727/127

8: 47 map: 45 - 55, rpm: 0 - 1800
114/122.851/128

9: 4 map: 45 - 55, rpm: 1800 - 2000
128/128/128

10: 0 map: 45 - 55, rpm: 2000 - 2200

11: 2 map: 45 - 55, rpm: 2200 - 7000
128/128/128

12: 17 map: 55 - 104, rpm: 0 - 1800
125/127.588/128

13: 0 map: 55 - 104, rpm: 1800 - 2000

14: 0 map: 55 - 104, rpm: 2000 - 2200

15: 9 map: 55 - 104, rpm: 2200 - 7000
127/127.889/128

· There is carbon buildup on the IAC pintle, or in the idle air passage restricting air flow

· There is carbon buildup on the throttle blade or throttle body bore

· The throttle stop screw is adjusted incorrectly (throttle resting closed too much)

· There is a mechanical problem with the engine resulting in lower than expected vacuum levels at idle (this will require the IAC to open further so the engine gets the required amount of air to maintain the preset idle speed)

bam wrote:
3-5" of snow here in the good ole midwest - yuck!! Here is what I have so far;
1)WOT still too rich. Adjusted the PE% Change to Fuel/Air Ratio vs. RPM table back off stock settings, result; WOT is a little less rich but now initial tip in at very low rpm's at part throttle is going very lean.
2)VEMaster is really messed up, I can now read the bin file it creates with C.A.T.S. but all the new numbers in the VE tables are really wacky, all over the place, really strange. I even tried it on another computer with no better results. I have a feeling this will never be figured out?! frustrating.
3)Initial tip in is worse as 1) above but I am thinking that I will go back into PE vs rpm and increase it below 1200 rpm and cut it back some more above that hopefully that help both, we will see.

One extra note, in C.A.T.S. I have adjusted the VE tables in the full graph mode. I could much more easily see peaks and troughs and smooth them out. The VE table is really smooth now and I can really tell it in cruise, the bucking is finally totally gone. nice!

I still could use some help here, any knowing comments appreciated.

Plus checked plugs yesterday engine is not running major lean or rich. All plugs a nice clean, tan color.

bam wrote:
I really appreciate the comments, feedback here, otherwise one feels lost in the woods!!

I will try your suggestion on the PE, I was going to change it but for now I will leave it alone and do another data log first.

One question I have is; why the two 02 sensors? My 08 Grand Prix only has one located back of where the two manifolds join into one. The timing, map readings, temp readings are all the same for both banks of the engine,if so then why change the fueling. I can still see the split BLM's (although I have not logged since smoothing the VE tables, they may have improved but I doubt it) I am thinking this is because of the hot cam (112 lobe separation) and the LT1 intake short runners?? If I am right the problem is enhanced by having 2 02 sensors which are always trying to compensate for the reversion in the intake and constantly fighting against themselves. Andy any thoughts, have you been able to eliminate or improve on the split BLM issue with these motors?

bam wrote:
You run in open loop so that means you never use your 02's right? Was the reason for doing this the supercharger? Or something else? Can you give me a brief idea of how this works? I am thinking that the split BLM's what ever the cause (unless it is vacuum leak, exhaust leak, which I am sure mine is not, I've checked this out really well several times) just makes no sense, there is no hot rodding reason (maybe for fuel mileage or emissions)to have one bank of the engine rich and the other lean all the time. I am thinking of running just one 02 and running it to both banks in the computer and then tune that side with my wide band. That will eliminate split BLM's, any thoughts? A guy with 6 years of working on this stuff, what you have learned is invaluable, thanks for the help.

bam wrote:
That's a healthy cam for a 350 (or is it a 383?). I would really like to have my wide band log with data master, could you give me more detail about the AC pressure switch, any place I could read up on how to do this, you wide band looks like mine - inovate?
I have split BLM's all through the rpm/KPa bands, so if I want to correct VE tables by dividing the BLM recorded with 128 then use that as a multiplier which BLM do I use since they are split, or do I simply take the average of the two and use that? Say one is 140 the other 120 do I use 130 then?
As for bucking, I call that steady cruise in lower rpm's (1000-1900 where you can't cruise w/o the car "bucking" like a mule. But even very slight acceleration of deceleration will immediately stop it. I have no hesitation when pulling away from a light either with WOT or part throttle. I think what you call cam surge is what I call bucking, it's exactly what I have below 1000 rpm which is really not a problem, the only time I drive that slow in first gear is pulling up the driveway.
My throttle stop screw allows the blades to be completely closed, I have heard you want all the idle air to come thru the IAC, right?

bam wrote:
Ok one last question; when you went open loop did you do it so you could get away from the sthometric A/F ration of 14.7 and run you car a little richer? Or was it something else too?

djxib wrote:


Great question. I did it initially so I could get a true read on the AFR at idle and part throttle cruise (i.e. without the ECM screwing with BLMs). However, when I started testing I realized that the driveability was so much better so I decided to keep it permanent.

bam wrote:
Quote:

djxib wrote:


Great question. I did it initially so I could get a true read on the AFR at idle and part throttle cruise (i.e. without the ECM screwing with BLMs). However, when I started testing I realized that the driveability was so much better so I decided to keep it permanent.

Do you mean the BLM's were all over the place so you could not get a clear reading on actual A/F as a basis to start changing the VE table?
How did you set the prom to stay in OL move the temp up where CL kicks in so that the 02's would never come on?
Your wide band 02 is in only one side right? Or do you have two wide band 02's one in each bank of the exhaust, if not then how do you tune the "other" side? Or do you just figure it's not really a problem having one fueling for both banks?
How exactly do you tune your car in constant OL? Do you take the readings of your wide band combined with rpm, KPa data from data master and use that to adjust for lean/rich conditions? How do you know how much to adjust the VE numbers if your data comes from the WB 02?

bam wrote:
On the initial hit of WOT I am running 11's on the wide band then it backs off to low 12's, should be ok there.