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| dan0617 | Up and running....AGAIN! | ||
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Senior Guru
 
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Please see my sig for my new setup details. Most of you know about my new heads, used shortblock, new trans installation and subsequent bearing failure a month ago. New shortblock is installed and broken in. When I first fired it there was alot of blow-by. Did the 20 mins at 2000 rpms to break the cam in (flat tappet). After that, did a handful of 40 to 80 WOT pulls and left it decellerate on it's own in 2nd gear, to break in the rings. Blowby is gone. Car pulls HARD, haven't even tried WOT in 1st gear yet. By seat of the pants (which with my ass doesn't mean alot), it feels almost as strong now N/A as it did before on a 175 shot. I am impressed how hard it pulls right up to the 6000 or 6100 rpm shift. In third gear before it was a dog without spraying (3.07 gears). Now it is still pulling in 3rd. I love that! I guess in the higher gears is where horsepower is needed the most.
Tune needs some work for cam surge and converter settings but air fuel ratios are good for now, I think. Hang around 13.2 at WOT, upper 14's at normal cruise and at idle. Haven't sprayed the nitrous at all yet. Question 1: what AFR do you guys suggest for both N/A and on the nitrous, say 200 shot. I want a good safe AFR and will be a little conservative on timing as well. I was thinking the 13.2 should be good N/A, but no leaner. Perhaps 12.9 to 13.0 would be better. On the spray, I was thinking of shooting for a 12.5, or perhaps I should drop down to a 12.0?? Give me your opinions please. Valve train is loud. There isn't any one rocker that is louder than any others but it sounds like a LOUD sewing machine, and the injectors are LOUD, and on top of that my HSR plenum has no ribs on top so it echos the sound louder. If I put my hand on top in the middle of the plenum and push down it sounds better so I might put 1 skinny bolt all the way through the plenum with a nut on the bottom to essentially do the act of me putting my hand on top. I am assuming the loud valve train is attributed to me running Rhodes vari-duration lifters on the exhaust valves, set at .030, and my roller rockers. I have stock style hydraulics on the intakes set at 1/2 turn past 0 lash. I have Crane Gold 1.6 full roller rockers which I think are causing most of the noise, have thought of going over to just a roller tip rocker to eliminate some underhood noise but have heard they generate a ton of heat on these higher lift cams in a 1.6 ratio rocker. Question 2: what are your opinions on this? I can live with the underhood noise, especially since it isn't that bad with the hood shut. Would like to quiet it down some if I could though but don't want to hurt performance much at all and for sure don't want to generate any more heat to the oil. Also, I have aftermarket thin chrome valve covers, would it quiet it down under there more if I go back to a stock style valve cover? Thanks in advance, all opinions are appreciated. |
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Posted on: 2009/3/28 15:59
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| CFI-EFI | Re: Up and running....AGAIN! | ||
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It has been a very long time since I installed a set of Rhodes lifters. I don't recall adjusting lash (play) when installing them. I thought the Rhodes got set with preload just like any other hydraulic lifter. They are noisy as heck until the engine revs and the lifters pump up. Regardless, I think almost all of your valve train noise is due to the Rhodes lifters, and that a change in rocker arms will be a wasted effort. It sounds like it runs like a raped ape. Congrats. RACE ON!!! |
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Posted on: 2009/3/28 16:18
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| dan0617 | Re: Up and running....AGAIN! | ||
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Thanks CFI. The Rhodes vari-duration lifters that I'm running on the exhaust side get set up wierd. You have to put a feeler gauge in between the roller tip and the valve tip, then crank the adjusting nut down all the way till the lifter bottoms out and the valve begins to open. Then loosen the nut till the valve closes and the lifter plunger is still bottomed out. That is where you set them, tighten the lock nut at this point. When you pull out the feeler gauge the lifter plunger comes up just a hair. Whatever thickness feeler gauge you use is how much bleed down you get when the car is idling, and it knocks off some duration as well by being bled down. Rhodes suggests .010 to .030 on a street car and .030 to .040 on a race engine. I am running a split duration cam (230/236) to help with the nitrous' extra exhaust, so I ran these rockers on the exhaust side to help keep cylinder pressure up and eliminate some cam surge. They restore all lift by 3000 rpms. So far so good, throttle response is great and cam surge is minimal and I think can be eliminated with some tuning. Most noise seems to be coming from the rockers rather than the lifters by listening externally but you could be right, maybe it is the lifters causing the rockers to sound noisy. |
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Posted on: 2009/3/28 16:39
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| CFI-EFI | Re: Up and running....AGAIN! | ||
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Your description of the adjustment method (which I'd forgot) does NOT specify lash in the valve train. I couldn't imagine recommended lash with a hydraulic lifter. As stated in another thread here, recently, it is not possible to differentiate or attribute noise in the valve train to any given component. Any noise or play any where pretty much makes the same noise. In the other thread the OP was prepared to buy new rocker arms to replace the noisy rockers. Some types of rockers can inherently be noisier than others, but I am positive you are talking about more noise here, that just roller rockers vs fulcrum ball rockers. The bottom line is that Rhodes lifters are noisy. If you want to use Rhodes lifters, the noise is part of the deal.
RACE ON!!! |
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Posted on: 2009/3/28 16:56
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| dan0617 | Re: Up and running....AGAIN! | ||
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Thanks for the advice. I am sure they are adjusted correctly as per Rhodes instructions, you are correct in saying no lash is in the system when they are adjusted. I would rather live with the noise than have more cam surge and rougher idle that I'd have from not running these lifters. I have much less surge and a better idle than I had on my last setup, which was a 350 with 224/230 cam and reworked 113 heads. Not a perfect comparison but I'm happier with the street manners now than before and I think the lifters and the bumped up compression ratio are the major contributing factors. At this point I've decided to stay with the lifters if they are causing the extra noise. Was just wondering if different rockers would make it quiet down, sounds like not. Thanks again. As a side note, I'd expected the lifters to make a loud tapping or ticking sound from what I've heard. I do not have that sound, just a loud industrial sewing machine!, and loud injectors sounding like a cross between ticking and train wheels. Funny, yes, but I don't know how else to describe it. |
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Posted on: 2009/3/28 17:28
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| CFI-EFI | Re: Up and running....AGAIN! | ||
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I wasn't suggesting you get rid of the Rhodes lifters. I was just trying to explain that the noise wasn't the rocker arms. The other thread I was referring to is titled "Rocker help" by Travis93. The reason you don't have the loud tapping noise you thought you might, is because you don't actually have any lash. Play and or excessive lash is what makes the tick, tick or clack, clack. I think if you like how it runs and can live with the noise, you should leave it alone. I just suggested that you don't waste money on rocker arms and then find out that they won't make it any quieter. RACE ON!!! |
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Posted on: 2009/3/29 0:39
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| dan0617 | Re: Up and running....AGAIN! | ||
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Yes, and thanks, that is the suggestion I was looking for, whether or not the roller tip rockers would make much difference. I sure can't waste any more money right now. According to my wife any money spent on the vette for mods is a waste of money. I've sure "wasted" alot in the past 3 months then! Any suggestions on air/fuel ratio? I'm right now thinking 13.0 to 13.2 N/A and 12.2 or 12.3 on the spray as a target. Some local friends tell me I should go for 12.5 N/A and about 11.7 on the spray to keep it safe from detonation and not give up any power. Are they right? Would that keep it safer or is that too rich? I thought any AFR in the 11's, even on nitrous, is leaving power on the table needlessly. |
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Posted on: 2009/3/29 18:02
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| CFI-EFI | Re: Up and running....AGAIN! | ||
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Yes. Save your money on the rocker arms.
I am not an A/F ratio expert. From my limited experience with out nitrous, high 12s has worked well at WOT. You can experiment with the learner ratios and check the plugs after some WOT passes. There is an old adage "lean is mean". I would keep a close eye on thing when you are running on the edge. The closer to 14.7:1 you can get at idle and steady state cruise, the better emissions and economy. I don't particularly care for the juice and therefore know nothing about tuning with it. All I know is that it doesn't take much of a miscalculation to get expensive...FAST. But I'll bet you knew that. Have fun, and... RACE ON!!! |
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Posted on: 2009/3/29 22:57
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: Up and running....AGAIN! | ||
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Looking forward to some dyno #'s or track times in the future Dan. Sounds like this one is a better runner. Dan are u really going to be spraying a 200 shot? If so that is close to 300rwtq (ouch!!). If so that bottom end better be strong.
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Posted on: 2009/3/30 12:55
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| dan0617 | Re: Up and running....AGAIN! | ||
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Will be track times for sure in the near future. Starting off with a 100 shot to get it dialed in, then 150, 175, 200. I really don't think it will produce an addl. 300 rwtq. From my experience and dyno with the old engine but the same HSR intake, the RWTQ and RWHP went up almost, but not quite, what the shot size was. IE: If I ran a 150 shot, I gained about 135 hp and 140 tq at the wheels.
One thing that will help survival is the higher stall converter. The hardest thing on a motor with nitrous use, other than detonation, is low rpm cylinder pressures. The lower the rpm that you spray, the longer the cylinder pressures are spiked. I don't spray till 1/2 sec or so after launch, and the converter keeps me at or above 5000 rpms all the way through the 1/4. IMO, that makes a big difference. I do think this bottom end can handle it. Not sure of the bearings used other than they are Clevite 77's. I know it is an Eagle 4340 crank, Eagle 4340 H-Beam 6" rods, and JE forged flat top pistons. It is a 4 bolt splayed main cap block with Callies billet main caps, arp rod bolts, arp main studs, M55A oil pump, MILODON WINDAGE TRAY!!! Converter has an anti-balloon plate for nitrous use. Builder says he would spray a 300 shot and not bat an eye, and would consider a 400 shot. I will never go any higher than maybe a 225 shot as that is as much as I can put though a Zex kit and a single nozzle, and I don't want to go to a plate or anything other than a single nozzle. He has the same exact identical bottom end in a camaro running low 9's on 17 psi of boost and it is surviving perfectly. I surely hope it is as strong as he says. I know the package as a whole is a very strong runner with great torque and horsepower by SOTP. So far I'm very pleased. Waiting to get the tune spot on before bringing the nitrous into the mix. I am hoping for high 11's on motor and mid-upper 10's on a 200 shot in the 1/4 after getting it dialed in. Next winter or the winter after I'm thinking of putting a supercharger at about 8psi, a water meth injection system, and spray a 100 shot. Compression is too high for anything more than about 8psi and I don't want to lower the compression and hurt street manners so my dream at this point is low boost and a 100 shot. Time will tell. |
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Posted on: 2009/4/1 14:58
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| dan0617 | Re: Up and running....AGAIN! | ||
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How is your new mill coming along? Are you thinking of spraying it? Man, that thing should have killer torque without spray!
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Posted on: 2009/4/1 15:05
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| Josh | Re: Up and running....AGAIN! | ||
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I would shoot for 13.5 on motor, but I run my shit pretty lean. Most would prefer 13.0 or so.
On 2 bills, I would shoot for 11.7-11.9 or so, but again I run my shit pretty lean. I think most would say 11.3-11.5 is the ticket for 2 bucks. |
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Posted on: 2009/4/1 21:39
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"Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton |
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| dan0617 | Re: Up and running....AGAIN! | ||
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Wow, that is pretty rich for what I was thinking on the spray. Maybe I was running my shit too lean. I was always a believer in staying on the rich side a little and just use a bigger jet if more power is needed. Maybe I was more towards the lean side on the spray and was thinking I was rich at mid 12's. Thanks.
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Posted on: 2009/4/2 12:18
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| Josh | Re: Up and running....AGAIN! | ||
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The more nitrous you spray, the more fuel you'll need, but the relationship isn't linear. If you add X fuel with Y nitrous, YY nitrous does not equal XX fuel.
If you ran straight nitrous, no atmosphere, you'd want somewhere around a 6:1 AFR. The more nitrous you spray, the closer you come to replacing all atmoshphere with N20, so the closer you need to be to 6.0. A 100 shot on a 4 banger that only makes 100 HP would need to be considerbaly richer than a 100 shot on an LS7. Reason being is that you are replacing a much greater percentage of atmospere on the smaller engine. On a 100 shot, 12.5 or so would be what I would look for, maybe a tick leaner. I ran an LT1 car I used to own at 13.2 or so on a 100 shot with great results. I wouldn't set up someone else's car like that, but for me it worked great. On 200, things can get hairy pretty quick, so I would look for high 11's. If at high 11's everything was working out with no knock or anything, I might start to lean it out a bit. I couldn't tell you until I was there and could see/feel the car. Ultimately, EGT should be your guideline. If you can run the 200 shot at 13.5 and still only see 1200 degrees, I would probably do it. I don't have ready access to an EGT set anymore though, so for the last few years I've been going by AFR. Good luck, your combo seems really stout. Looking forward to track times. |
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Posted on: 2009/4/2 20:43
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"Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton |
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: Up and running....AGAIN! | ||
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I finally have a few minutes to post. The mill is complete. I am just waiting for the weather to get better in Utah, so Jim can ship it (he has other projects on the go as well). I am hoping to have it in my garage in about 2 weeks, then start riping the dash off. I am going to put the FAST behind the crash pad, and have the wires for tuning the FAST come out where the fuse panel is located. This way it will be a quick access, as the stock computer location bites! This is the plan anyways. I also bought a ZF6 from Jeffvette, and I am not sure if I am going to install that with the motor, or try out the 4+3. As you can tell, I have some decisions to make. In regards to the actually 421. Jim has made 1 minor change that should give me a few more ponies up top. It was a no brainer, and it helped him out with his 450 sbc. As far as the spray is concerned, It's the least of my worries. The opinion of a few guys have mentioned that the motor should make anywhere from 550-575 chp. Dan, if it makes that power, I won't get bored for a while. The bottom end, and the block are some stout pieces so I wouldnt be afraid to spray it. Have a good one. |
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Posted on: 2009/4/3 10:42
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