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| Travis93 | Tuning questions | ||
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I think I may be getting close with my tune but have a few questions. How much if any BLM split is normal if any for a modified car? Is any knock retard bad? I had heard as long as its less than 3 deg. its good, I am getting about 1.5 at timesbut I also have 89 octane in it. I will be putting 92 in it next fill up and see if there is any improvment.
I'm going to attach my last datamaster scan if anyone wants to look at it and point out something I might be missing. I know its still a bit rich at idle I am working on that still. Would the rich idle cause a slight stumble starting off? |
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Posted on: 2009/6/14 19:13
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| Travis93 | Re: Tunning questions | ||
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Ok looks like that file may be a bit big. I will try again with one thats a little smaller. I did manage to lean the over all mixture some on this one and I advanced the spark a bit in some places. Ok to see if this one works.
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Posted on: 2009/6/14 19:19
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06-13-09.uni| Travis93 | Re: Tunning questions | ||
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No one can help? I have 93 octane in it now, going to check the header bolts tomorrow and run another scan if I can get the time. I could sure use a point in the right direction though.
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Posted on: 2009/6/17 23:50
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| djxib | Re: Tunning questions | ||
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Hi Travis - I have been tuning for only a short time now. As far as I can tell from your trace, things are still a little rich. In answer to your questions:
1. Some knock is ok but best to tune it out completely through richening up PE a little or taking some spark out; removing 2 degrees of spark in the tune is better than it being removed by knock. 2. Some split BLMs at idle can be 'normal' apparently if you run a larger throttle body (do a google for split BLMs and you'll see its a common curse). When they are also split at higher RPM it can mean the O2's need replacing or an air leak. I have a persistent air leak in the AIR pipes and when it gets loose my BLMs can be over 20 apart. So - definitely run higher Octane, and definitely find that air leak! Once you have the VE tables tuned OK (best to test this with steady state cruising in different gears, no throttle jabs) you can move to AE and PE. I'm assuming your car is a 93 and therefore (I think ) non-MAF? |
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Posted on: 2009/6/18 0:32
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| Travis93 | Re: Tunning questions | ||
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I know its rich at idle, You think it is above idle too?
So I take it my split is still more than normal I will look for the leak. Thank you very much. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/18 1:36
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| Josh | Re: Tunning questions | ||
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You might try checking in on the corvette forum, or thirdgen.org with tuning issues. Not a ton of tuners over here yet.
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Posted on: 2009/6/18 12:35
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_________________
"Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton |
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| djxib | Re: Tunning questions | ||
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Quote:
Yes - I saw some BLMs below 128 when you were driving, and some healthy splits right to left. Before you chase the splits, can you post some details about your setup.. for example did you install a very large throttle body? On your next scan, do some 'steady state' cruising in different gears (you'll force block learns in different blocks which will help tuning). For the VE tables, I do the following: Cruise at 45mph for a couple of minutes on a level road (no hills) in 3rd, then 4th, then 5th Do the same at 65mph. Do similar at 20mph, using 1st and then second. This should get you some good Block learn numbers for the base tune. Then you can move to higher throttle conditions and you can see how the O2's are reacting (rich or lean) And yes - try posting your scans on thirdgen.org, lots of LT1 tuners over there (rather than hackers like me.. !) Good luck! |
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Posted on: 2009/6/18 15:42
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| dan0617 | Re: Tunning questions | ||
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Spark plug heat range can cause knock too. If you keep retarding timing and still have knock, try going a step colder on the spark plugs.
I have a MAF car, but I found it easiest to set the min and the max blms to 128, then just tune with the integrator. After dialed in you can set your blms to run again, but I just left mine locked and it worked fine. With my cam, though, I had to end up tuning open loop and run much richer than 14.7 on the wideband in order for the cam surge to not be really bad. Not sure why, I know the wideband is calibrated and accurate. No matter how much I advance or retard the timing in the tune it still has the surge. Plugs were white-ish at 14.7. I now run about 13.5 at cruise in OD, about 12.5 at cruise in 3rd, and at very very light throttle I see it dip down to low 11's on the wideband. Yet the plugs are nice and tan looking now and the cam surge is almost gone. You also, depending on your cam and setup and how the car acts, might need to tune open loop. I didn't want to stray from closed loop but I had to. Worked best to tune with integrator like I said above, then lock the integrator too, and set the closed loop minimum temp to 304F. Might need to tweak timing and fueling a little after that but it will give you a great open loop tune to start with. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/18 18:37
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ยด89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| Travis93 | Re: Tunning questions | ||
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There is the kind of help I need without even knowing it. This scan I tried to follow your advice not easy with stop lights every 5 feet and every one of them red but I think I got some good ranges. I did check the headers and they seem to be tight I found a couple clamps loose on what I think are the AIR pipes, the metal pipe that screws in to the top of the headers and goes through some valves and into the back of the intake manifold. but that does not seem to have helped the split. I did forget to post my setup sorry about that. Yes its a larger throttle body not huge but a stock one bored to 52mm, I have ported stock heads with larger valves, Lloyd Elliot LE1.6 cam, 30# injectors, and ceramic coated long tube headers into a custom made 3" exhaust ending in stock LT1 mufflers. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/18 19:43
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| djxib | Re: Tunning questions | ||
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Hi Travis, I looked at the 'cruising' part of the scans and there seems to be a difference in the learns between cells 3 and 7. This suggests to me that the VE tables could do with smoothing out a bit - you could try VE Master to smooth the lower RPM values. Your idle actually looks pretty good (records after 3094)- maybe you did fix some aspects of the split? Next step - try VE Master. Then progress to part throttle acceleration runs. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/19 12:37
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| Travis93 | Re: Tunning questions | ||
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I have tried VE Master and all it did was corrupt my bin files. I am using Tuner Pro and VE Master says tuner cat file, I assumed because I am not using Tuner Cat it would not work for me.
I did not think the split looked any better I guess I need to get in there and look closer. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/19 19:13
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| djxib | Re: Tunning questions | ||
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OK so VE master wont work for you - how about VEphd, written by Mark Mansur (on the Moates download pages)? I havent tried it, but I understand it is spreadsheet based. As for the splits, I meant to say in my last post that in your datalogs, throttle-overrun conditions (i.e. when you let off the throttle and TPS goes to 0%) prompts some really weird splits and rich/lean behavior. I have no idea what could be going on, that would definitely be worth searching / posting over on thirdgen.org. However, normal idling and crusing seem to have less of a split issue, just the learning between cells that I highlighted above. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/22 12:58
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| djxib | Re: Tunning questions | ||
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I found a document that has a good discussion on cell boundaries and cell learning - and also some other good tuning stuff. I hope its useful..! |
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Posted on: 2009/6/23 19:34
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| Travis93 | Re: Tunning questions | ||
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I will look into the off idle for sure but I seem to have picked up another miss. Just seems to be one thing after another I can't wait tell this is done. I did come across VEphd mentioned someplace but have not had a chance to look into it yet but will take a look when its running right again. The document you posted looks like it came from here http://www.lt1pcmtuning.com/tips/ and I agree its a great place to get started. He talks about some tables I can not find in tunerpro I am wondering if tunercat has more tables. I may have to start using tunercat after all I am just not sure how it would interface with my chip burner. The off idle split makes me wander if maybe there is a vacuum leak I have not been able to find yet. My brakes are a little harder than I remember I guess there could be a leak in the booster but it's only a couple years old. And a pain in the ass to change, It does get better after removing the driver seat though.
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Posted on: 2009/6/23 22:35
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| djxib | Re: Tunning questions | ||
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Actually - good point about Tunercat vs Tunerpro. I ended up buying TunerCat which I use for modifying the bin (it has a LOT more tables); and I use TunerPro to load the bin to the Chip. Good luck with identifying your miss.. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/24 1:31
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| Travis93 | Re: Tuning questions | ||
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Miss was the second plug wire down on the driver side of the opti loose and flopping.
   I decided to try tunercat just to see what I was missing even though I had already paid for tunerpro and here is a little feedback. tunerpro has 1 switch tunercat has 26 yes 26 to 1 tunercats favor. tunerpro has 14 tabular tunercat has 40f'n9, thats 49 for those of you that missed that part and 15 to 75 still tunercats favor. finally the all important tables tuner pro has 14 tunercat 49. Final score 29 to 124, or is it? I finally got a chance to try VEMaster and have to say I did nothing but waist my time before. That alone makes tunercat 10 times better. Now for the math tunerpro=29 tunercat=124*10=1240 tunercat is about 4000% better even though tunerpro is a bit cleaner interface. Anyway things are making a lot more sense now and advancing finally. I will be back with more stupid questions though. Oh here is one when datamaster says it is running off cell 13 how do I find cell 13 in tunercat? |
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Posted on: 2009/6/30 22:53
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| djxib | Re: Tuning questions | ||
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Hi Travis - there is a discussion in the document above on how to visualize the cell boundaries. Basically there are 19 cells - 16 for driving and 3 for special conditions (e.g. Idle, WOT and decel). If you look in Tunercat you can see tables (BLM cell boundaries) that describe the RPM and MAP boundaries in your tune. If you would like a quick walk-through of these and other Tuner Cat tables, PM me and we can arrange a call for me to go through them with you.
Oh - and VE Master works very well with my TunerCat bins... |
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Posted on: 2009/7/1 0:55
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| Travis93 | Re: Tuning questions | ||
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Thank you for the response. I have a lot more reading to do now that I have so much more information. I just might take you up on that call once I learn enough to know what I don't know.
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Posted on: 2009/7/1 2:01
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