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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Brakes | ||
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Elite Guru
 
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How much is the J55 upgrade, calipers, rotors, brackets?
We're doing full Wilwood stuff on my car for basically ~$1000 rear and maybe $1200 front. Why would anyone use more factory crap? Is it really that much cheaper? A superlight caliper is $150. Brackets will be the same cost regardless of the caliper, pads are somewhat similar (Wilwood pads are probably cheaper), and my Wilwood rotors are $45. So where is the savings? I even offered to make the brackets and sell them to forum members. Is it because they don't say "Corvette" on them? Street temps on the rotor are more like 500*. Track temps are in the 800 - 1100 range. Not sure where the 1800* number comes from...maybe F1 or Indy cars? I measured mine Saturday at 700*, but that was after a rain session so clearly I wasn't using them as much. Andy I'd stay away from HP+ on the street. They stop well but they squeal like a stuck pig and you'd better get black wheels, since they will become black in less than a week... The verdict is still out on the HPS. Maybe for a beginner, but I burned up a set in about 2 laps on a buddy's Audi. Heavier, sure, but nowhere near the speeds a 'Vette will do. |
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Posted on: 2011/4/11 13:18
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| biggrizzly | Re: Brakes | ||
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2011 Memorial Day Car Show Winner!
 
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Wilwood... would be nice too!!
I have drooled over that stuff. It's on the radar for a later mod. |
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Posted on: 2011/4/11 13:40
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Don Haller Corvette Club of America 94Coupe, 383Stroka, PeteK Trans, 3000stall, 3.54rear, Konis and bigger sways. |
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| BillH | Re: Brakes | ||
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The Stig Moderator
 
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BIG difference between HPDE braking and braking in a race. Maybe 10% of HPDE drivers use their brakes right in their first year. HPS are fine for their first couple of events (thought their instructor should take note of how they're using their brekes). A racer in an Audi burning up HPS pads, who'd a thunk it??   |
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Posted on: 2011/4/11 13:48
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| jaa1992 | Re: Brakes | ||
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Guru
 
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Thats what I'm talking about! The j55 lasts about 5 laps which is perfect for time trials since thats the max number of laps in a session. Its places like CMP that screw with my head, the j55 is OK, I just don't trust them and brake too hard too long for 1, 11 and 14. Its all going to depend on the winter budget what gets done. I need the rest of the cage done over the winter. A seat and dyno tune is this summer. If I have $2K+ left it will be big brakes, I have the points to spare and now have 8 18" rims. I'll sell all my 17" rims next year. Gosh this is more expensive than a crack habit  |
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Posted on: 2011/4/11 15:19
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| bogus | Re: Brakes | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
 
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The 2800F number is the melting point of iron. I was making a point regarding the warping of rotors and how it can't happen on a street car. Yes, a race car, namely F1 can reach 1800F, without a problem, track dependant. I am going to try the HP+... just another step up the old ladder. And yes, I have black wheels! Try them out. If they prove to be annoying, well, screw it, I can buy HPS and save these for track day. It's not like pad swaps take 2 hours on one of these cars. My problem with the Wilwoods and such is wheel size. Sure, it's nice for my caliper to say "CORVETTE", but it isn't manditory. What is required is that the brakes still fit inside my wheel... and I am not replacing 2 year old rims on a whim like this. Makes no sense for the limited track time I do. I will add, current factory Corvette junk, especially on the Z06 and ZR1 are sourced from Brembo. For some reason, I don't see that as junk. |
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Posted on: 2011/4/11 15:47
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Brakes | ||
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Elite Guru
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What's the issue with wheel size? You can make the bracket to fit any wheel. If you're designing it yourself you're not stuck to someone else's idea. I run 17" GS wheels.
The C5 brakes (Z06 or otherwise) are decent, but crack rotors in a day and are no comparison for even the cheapest billet caliper. Most guys get tired of doing a brake job every day and get something better. The C6 brakes (Z06 or otherwise) are heavier and perform slightly worse than the C5. The biggest complaint in T1 (as close to a stock Corvette racing as you can get) was that the brakes were in no way comparable to the competition's brakes. Buttermore lead T1 in 2009 for three laps, then his brakes cooked and he fell to third behind a Ferrarri and a Viper. Finally, the SCCA listened to the drivers of the most popular car in the class and allowed caliper upgrades to 'vettes. Yes, this example is for track use. But if you are upgrading your system and spending the time and money, why not use a system that you will never have to change again? Brembo makes lots of calipers, some are good some are "cost effective". Just because it's from a manufacturer with a great reputation does not make it great. Chevy makes Corvettes but they also make the Aveo. The ZR1 is a different story. And I'd wager for the cost of ZR1 calipers you could get a much better Brembo or Wilwood set up. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm honestly trying to understand why C4 guys are so in love with the J55 brakes. My gut feel is simply that it's a known quantity, and in general C5 stuff is probably better. When vendors sell big brake kits for $3000 it's easy to see why the perception is that they are "out of my price range". Can you even find the upgrade brackets anymore, anyway? Wasn't Jeff making them? |
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Posted on: 2011/4/11 20:32
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| bogus | Re: Brakes | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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The brackets aren't the problem... the problem was for me, with GS/J55 already, was a C5 upgrade worth it?
From what I am reading and such, no, it wasn't. Now... if this was Oct 2001 all over again, and I had to do the brake upgrade, was the GS deal from Jeff Kopp a good deal? I would say, yes, brackets, rotors, Grand Sport calipers, all for $440.00, shipped. A lot of us got in on that GP then. As for Brembo brakes on the ZR1 and Z06, I do know that the carbon ceramic rotors are the same as Ferrari used on the Enzo. Good? I donno, just say'n. I know that Brembo makes all sorts of brakes, no question. They are OE providers from Nissan (370Z and GT-R) all the way up through Porsche and Ferrari. It's a good product... and they also do brakes for F1. Since I haven't priced ZR1 calipers yet, I have no reference. You may very well be correct. I think many of us take the approach that if we can buy a used caliper, we are ahead, financualy. But that's hard to swollow when you concider this reality: I was stopped at a light recently. Next to me was a brand new (or nearly), 911 Turbo. It had the optional big brake kit, with carbon ceramic rotors and stuff. I realized at that moment, his brakes were worth more than my entire car. |
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Posted on: 2011/4/11 20:46
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| Steve40th | Re: Brakes | ||
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Elite Guru
 
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I think when people change from the factory 12 inch rotor to a J55, they see a huge change because the 12 inch rotors/calipers/fluid and pads were old and not really working well. So upgrading they felt a great change. just saying.
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Posted on: 2011/4/11 20:55
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| BillH | Re: Brakes | ||
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The Stig Moderator
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Absolutely. Same thing with new cheapo shocks. |
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Posted on: 2011/4/11 21:13
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Brakes | ||
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Elite Guru
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Quote:
That's the number I was looking for. Even for the deal I am getting on my system it's still 2X that price. Better? Absolutely. Worth it? Only the buyer has that answer. Quote: As for Brembo brakes on the ZR1 and Z06, I do know that the carbon ceramic rotors are the same as Ferrari used on the Enzo. Good? I donno, just say'n. The C6 Z06 brakes are the same as the C6 standard. Perhaps there is a brake upgrade option (or a new for 2011 system), but I guarantee it's not cheap. The ZR1 is a 6 piston caliper if I remember correctly. Also I believe it's billet. Cast calipers (most production models, including Brembo) have much more flex and much lower tolerences. Still good stuff, but not pro stuff. My old-ass Brembo F40 calipers are nothing in comparison to today's monster stuff you can get on a Rustang. But they're machined and not cast. So still better than all but the best new stuff. I have access to scores of Brembos from EVO's and Mustangs, but they're not as good as what I have. |
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Posted on: 2011/4/11 22:13
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| Jeffvette | Re: Brakes | ||
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Elite Guru
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I'm glad you corrected yourself on the J55 being adequate at RA. I am surprised the J55 even lasts 5 laps. Even turn 6 is hard on the brakes before you hit the back straight. And 10A is just brutal. |
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Posted on: 2011/4/11 22:30
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| Jeffvette | Re: Brakes | ||
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Elite Guru
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ZR1 calipers are straight from Brembo. And priced pretty competitively from GM. It is the CC pads and rotors that kill ya. 600 per caliper in pads and the rotors are 2k or so. |
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Posted on: 2011/4/11 22:32
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| Jeffvette | Re: Brakes | ||
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Elite Guru
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The C6 ZO6 is not the same as the standard C6 brakes. The C6 ZO6 is a 6 piston PBR caliper. Standard is a 2 piston slider. The ZR1 is a 6 piston Brembo. |
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Posted on: 2011/4/11 22:36
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Brakes | ||
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Elite Guru
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You sure about that? PBR? Awesome. Really. And by awesome, I mean "junk". Of course my point of reference is the stock C4 setup, so probably not relevant... You still making the brackets you used to sell? |
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Posted on: 2011/4/11 22:47
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| jaa1992 | Re: Brakes | ||
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Guru
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Turn 6 isn't bad, I'm approaching 110 on the short straight and 6 is a 60 - 70 mph turn. Turn 7 is a quick jab and turn in then on to the back straight. 10A for me is really the pucker turn. Bias spring, rebuilt calipers, new booster and master with xp12/10 combo was a night and day difference from 17 year old hardware with xp10/8. I'm not in love with them, I'd love to be hitting the brakes at 100' for 10A. Until Spectator/Scary started posting about his cost effective big brakes it was a wish list item. Spectator/Scary you have a PM! |
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Posted on: 2011/4/12 13:34
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| bogus | Re: Brakes | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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This thread is really reinforcing the difference between street and track braking systems.
Not just the component level items, but the concepts and requirements of track based braking systems. I know for many, racing brakes were a case of put on a good pad and I am set! WRONG! Some systems just can't handle the heat and the stress. Good discussion, all in all. And since my track days are limited, I am fine with where I am. |
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Posted on: 2011/4/12 15:27
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| Steve40th | Re: Brakes | ||
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Elite Guru
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I remember drag racing a Chevelle with Drum brakes. You want to talk about FADE... After two or three runs at 110 plus MPH, you need to drive around and let them slowly cool. They were useless.
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Posted on: 2011/4/12 16:32
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| bogus | Re: Brakes | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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And people RACED on drum brakes...
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Posted on: 2011/4/13 16:10
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| BillH | Re: Brakes | ||
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The Stig Moderator
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And downshifting was used to slow the car down.  |
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Posted on: 2011/4/13 16:15
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| bogus | Re: Brakes | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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All of this was done on big mountain bike tires...
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Posted on: 2011/4/13 16:34
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Brakes | ||
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Elite Guru
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Quote:
I think Steve really nailed it here. IMO there are two things with brakes that make them a common modification: 1) Most of us can do it ourselves. This means you improve the vehicle, save labor costs, and get the satisfaction of a Saturday afternoon car project. All good things. 2) The fancy calipers and rotors add coolness. We all like to think we're above it, but we all like a little race car bling now and then... The third point is a bit more C4 specific, and thiat is that the stock system is woefully inadequate. As you all know I tend to get a little over the top with products that don't actually improve performance, but rather improve "feel". (I should put that in my signature.) But I guess that doesn't make them wrong, I just hate seeing people blow money on things that don't work. I've already done it, hate to see people repeat my (and others') mistakes. However, I do still stand by the point that if you are going to do it, and it doesn't cost much more, then why not do it right? Bogus, you should do the Guru clan a service and just get really good pads (maybe the HP+) and bleed your system well. Let's see if the GS brakes with just hose upgrades give the "feel" improvement associated with better brakes. Then we decide this debate once and for all. Thoughts? |
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Posted on: 2011/4/13 19:23
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| bogus | Re: Brakes | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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And that's what I am doing!
I ordered HP+ pads, ATE fluid, rebuild kits for the calipers (new seals) and Powerslot cryo rotors (bling, I admit)... all for my OE GS calipers. |
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Posted on: 2011/4/13 22:41
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| jaa1992 | Re: Brakes | ||
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Guru
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For street, autocross and the occasional track day you will love it. Be careful with replacing the seals, use brake fluid for lube when putting the pistons back in. |
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Posted on: 2011/4/14 0:00
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| bogus | Re: Brakes | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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Thanks for the reminder!!! |
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Posted on: 2011/4/14 0:38
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Brakes | ||
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Elite Guru
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Before you do the swap do some 60 - 0 and 100 - 0 stops.
Then repeat after, of course... |
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Posted on: 2011/4/14 14:18
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| bogus | Re: Brakes | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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No such luck here in LA... just ain't happening!
I finished the install today. A few observations: Brake caliper seals last only forever. I replaced one set, and determined I didn't need to bother, really. Inspected the other set and left well enough alone. A trick for installing the dust shield: 1. Coat in brake fluid. 2. Slide over the top of the piston and roll over the notch for the seal. 3. Roll down until the outer tang (for the caliper) is free of the piston. 4. Using a piston compressor, press in the piston. The seal should all but fall into the notch on the piston. The new pads are intense. I bedded them, in and they just flat STOP. Right now. Using ATE brake fluid. I think the master is now showing age, it's been there for nearly 10 years. Next replacement. The rear calipers are a bitch to work with. The cable assembly is held on with these 6mm allen head bolts that do not like to get loose. Ugh. I also installed new rotors, Powerslot cryo treated sloted rotors for the front and premium NAPA for the rear. Used my handy-dandy one man bleed kit and all worked perfectly fine! I will report back after my next track day! |
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Posted on: 2011/4/16 3:56
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: Brakes | ||
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Elite Guru
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What did you get for pads, HP+?
I thought I heard a school bus approaching, but it turns out it was your C4... Rear calipers? Really? I never had any trouble with them and I changed my rear pads and rotors once or twice per year. Makes me wonder what I was missing... And yes, until I did the Wilwoods last month I still had a parking brake. Now it's a 2x4. |
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Posted on: 2011/4/16 4:59
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| bogus | Re: Brakes | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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I did do the HP+ pads. They are stout.
I wanted to replace the seals on them, but those allen heads killed me. So I didn't. Otherwise, the pad swap was easy as easy gets. |
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Posted on: 2011/4/16 5:52
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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