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jsup Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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The interesting part, I found, is where they cite dropping CFM by 30 or 40 and picking up power. Thought you guys would find it interesting.


The other thing I find interesting is where they talk about porting to a dyno, not a flow bench.

Just thought it was an interesting point of view.

http://www.rehermorrison.com/

Quote:

Airflow Fallacies: Avoiding the Pitfalls of the Flow Bench
By David Reher


"What's it flow?"

Whenever a conversation about cylinder heads begins with that question, I cringe. I know where this discussion is going, and it's not good. When a racer wants to distill the performance of a highly developed cylinder head down to a single number, I know I'm dealing with someone who is fixated on the flow bench.

I can speak from hard-earned experience, because there was a time when the flow bench was the center of my universe. When my partners Buddy Morrison and Lee Shepherd constructed our first flow bench in the '70s, it was a revelation – or so we believed. We were addicted to airflow, and like three flow bench junkies, we convinced ourselves that big flow numbers translated to quicker elapsed times. But that was more than 30 years ago, and since then I've learned to avoid the pitfalls of flow bench testing.

Unfortunately many racers coming into the sport haven't been taught the lessons that Buddy, Lee and I learned the hard way. Cylinder head manufacturers, porting shops, and engine builders constantly advertise flow numbers – and I confess that I'm sometimes guilty as well. In this environment, it's understandable that some racers think it's all about maximum airflow. They shop for the biggest cfm number at the lowest price, like finding a screaming bargain on a 52-inch TV at WalMart.

The strategy to win the "Biggest CFM Contest" is simple: Grind the largest port that will physically fit in the head, use the biggest valves that will fit the combustion chambers, and test it on the biggest fixture you can find. That head might win the prize for airflow, but it won't win on the dyno or on the race track.

The factors that determine the performance of a cylinder head are complex. A head that is ported without considering air speed, the size of the engine, the rpm range, the location of the valves, and a dozen other parameters isn't going to be the best head, regardless of its peak airflow. And yet I see racers who are seduced by big cfm numbers bolt a pair of 10,000 rpm cylinder heads on a 7,000 rpm short block and then wonder why the engine won't run.

The most critical area in a competition cylinder head is the valve seat, and the order of importance works its way out from there. There are many questions that are much more important than airflow: How far are the valve heads off the cylinder wall? What's the ratio of valve size to bore diameter? What's the ratio of the airflow to the size of the valve? What's the size of the port, what's its taper, how high is the short-side radius? The answers to these aren't as simple as comparing a flow number, but they are what really make a difference in an engine.

Airflow is simply one measurement among many that influence engine performance. With the availability of affordable flow benches and computer simulation programs, it's easy to fall into the airflow trap. A builder works on a cylinder head, sees some bigger cfm numbers, and keeps working for more flow. But if he doesn't stop and test the engine on a dyno and on the drag strip, it's very likely he's gone down a blind alley. What the manometer on a flow bench sees at a steady 28 inches of depression is not at all what the engine sees in the real world. The pursuit of a big cfm rating has ruined countless cylinder heads in terms of what will actually run on an engine.

I put more faith in dyno pulls and time slips than I do in flow benches. I'll cite an example from back in the day when Buddy, Lee and I were winning Pro Stock championships. Lee came up with an idea for a tuliped exhaust valve. He filled in the back of the valve with Bondo, and tested the new design on our flow bench. It was killer. We instantly saw a tremendous improvement in airflow with a small exhaust port, a nice tight radius below the seat, and much more stable flow. So we had some titanium tulip exhaust valves made and tested them on the dyno – and the engine didn't run well at all. We had great airflow on the bench, but the engine didn't care.

We were working late one night, and Buddy decided to yank the heads off the block and have Lee open up the exhaust throats. Well, Lee kept grinding and Buddy kept taking the heads on and off, and eventually we picked up 30 horsepower that night. We were porting from the dyno and not from the flow bench. When Lee finally flow tested the heads the next day, they were down 30 or 40 cfm, but that's not what that engine saw.y an experienced engine builder.

The final test of a cylinder head is on the track. Frank Iaconio was our chief Pro Stock rival, and he was a smart racer. Frankie used to change valves at the track -- he'd make a run, come back to the pits and switch from valves with a 30-degree back angle to a 20-degree back angle. We did similar tests on the dyno, but he did it at the track. I was impressed.

I'm not dismissing flow benches. In fact, we use them daily at Reher-Morrison Racing Engines. But a flow bench is a tool, and it's really not much different than a micrometer. A micrometer can measure the diameter of a piston, but you have to run the engine to learn the correct piston clearance. Knowing the sizes of the piston and cylinder bore doesn't tell you if the piston is going to gall or collapse a skirt until you run it. And knowing the airflow of a cylinder head doesn't tell you whether it will make good power on a given engine until you race it.

Experience is the most important tool in cylinder head development. A person with extensive dyno and track experience has been through it all before, and knows how to avoid the flow bench fallacies.
Posted on: 2008/11/22 12:39
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cuisinartvette Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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THe biggest cfm, biggest port possible as mentioned above usually nets a disappointment, wev'e seen that for yrs; proven over and over with the newer head tech that has been out, old hat. True.
You see overported heads all the time, people fall for it over and over. Question is what size/shape is the port for the given application and was it a good choice.



I had to chuckle when I read this. You can get all the fuel in the world through a head but if you cant get the air through to burn it what good is it. While there certainly is somethign to fuel flow you need air, too or its no good.
http://www.dartheads.com/dartboard/showthread.php?t=323

Btw your flow numbers are on there and verified if youre curious.
Posted on: 2008/11/22 15:38
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Quote:

cuisinartvette wrote:
THe biggest cfm, biggest port possible as mentioned above usually nets a disappointment, wev'e seen that for yrs; proven over and over with the newer head tech that has been out, old hat. True.
You see overported heads all the time, people fall for it over and over. Question is what size/shape is the port for the given application and was it a good choice.



I had to chuckle when I read this. You can get all the fuel in the world through a head but if you cant get the air through to burn it what good is it. While there certainly is somethign to fuel flow you need air, too or its no good.
http://www.dartheads.com/dartboard/showthread.php?t=323

Btw your flow numbers are on there and verified if youre curious.


I know, you've been around thought some of the people who haven't may find it interesting. I agree to your point it's more about design than flow numbers. I've been saying that forever, thanks for joining the bandwagon.

You chuckle when you read what? That thread?

Interesting thread. I never knew flow benches could be off by as much as 15CFM and are effected by environmental conditions such as altitude and barometric pressure. Kinda makes it more worthless. Question, with all these factors and inaccuracies seems the only role of a flow bench is to take a set of heads and see how much was changed. Same heads, same bench. Doesn't seem accurate enough to prove anything else from bench to bench...

The last thing I note is that from old heads to new heads the flow numbers stayed the same, but the performance improved. Really is a science isn't it?

Thanks, I had my heads ported before leaving the factory, quick CNC clean up, not a full port. My numbers may be different or not IDK, nor do I care. I can't change it.
This is consistent with the response I got when I called and spoke to them:Quote:


To be honest we almost never use flow numbers these days. Our newer heads are all developed on a wet-flow bench, which has completely different flow figures and reference points than a typical flow bench.

Yes, we do still make airflow numbers available, I'm not sure if we used conservative ones, we do like any figures we release to be accurate and not over-inflated, but it's also entirely possible that those flow numbers are spot on. In wet flow testing we have found that heads with approximately the same (Or sometimes, even lower) airflow numbers can have significantly better performance based on fuel behavior in the fuel/air mixture. Because of that we have started focusing less on airflow and more on the more realistic testing conditions that wet-flow provides.

But in any event, if you do want some idea exactly how conservative our stated airflow numbers are let me know and I'll talk to one of the techs about it.
Posted on: 2008/11/22 15:52
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cuisinartvette Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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[QUOTE]You chuckle when you read what? That thread? [/QUOTE]
Yup

[QUOTE]Interesting thread. I never knew flow benches could be off by as much as 15CFM [/QUOTE]
Can be...I use one of two peoples benches I know. Both are Superflow 600s and readings are consistently off by 8-10 cfm even when flowed on the same bore. Come to the conclusion the inlet fixture used is the culprit. One persons fits flawlessly and takes extra time to clay it in perfect to mimic a perfect portmatch, the other isnt quite as perfect and that can throw #s off some.

[QUOTE]The last thing I note is that from old heads to new heads the flow numbers stayed the same, but the performance improved. Really is a science isn't it?[/QUOTE]
Performace improved...It would be nice to see some examples.
You want my honest opnion, try marketing hype.
Sure, maybe their fuel flow did pick up. "Says someone".
An example would be nice. Again, if you cant pick up air flow also, what good does it do.

.
Posted on: 2008/11/22 16:35
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Quote:

cuisinartvette wrote:yup [/QUOTE]

why?

[quote]
Can be...I use one of two peoples benches I know. Both are Superflow 600s and readings are consistently off by 8-10 cfm even when flowed on the same bore. Come to the conclusion the inlet fixture used is the culprit. One persons fits flawlessly and takes extra time to clay it in perfect to mimic a perfect portmatch, the other isnt quite as perfect and that can throw #s off some.


If they are all off, how is perfect determined? I can see it as a tool to measure progress of a port that you're grinding, but as a scientific measurement seems worthless if they are that far off.
Quote:

Performace improved...It would be nice to see some examples.
You want my honest opnion, try marketing hype.
Sure, maybe their fuel flow did pick up. "Says someone".
An example would be nice. Again, if you cant pick up air flow also, what good does it do.


They do have some examples there of motors they set up with new vs. old heads. Gains were 40 HP Plus. I don't have them at my finger tips and don't care enough to look. Wasn't the point of the thread.

well, it only takes so much air to burn so much fuel, at some point, more air does not burn more fuel. That can be addressed by the combination and tune, I guess, or simple physics. I'm sure the engineers who did the design did not design a head which delivers too much fuel and not enough air to burn it. That would just be stupid. You really think they did that?

Vizard himself said on a 400 HP car you never need more than 160 CFM heads, I guess that's enough air for that. But I haven't done the math.

Resized Image

It's ALL marketing hype, just a question on whose you believe. All of it is as worthless as the next, regardless who is passing it out. Some you can laugh at, some you can believe...depends I guess. The differences between any one major brand or another when correctly positioned, are so insignificant, all comes down to preference.

My original post was to help explain what these numbers really mean to people who may not have heard it before.
Posted on: 2008/11/22 16:44
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cuisinartvette Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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[QUOTE] more air does not burn more fuel.[/QUOTE]
Yes it does. Guys lean their cars out to gain power...
Illnever discount Vizard, the guy is a master. Think what he is saying is you can make that much power with that little flow but I guarantee you wouldnt want to drive it.
Lots of cam, compression and huge rpm to get it there.
These days you can get 400hp with a teeny cam , good flowing head and youll actually enjoy driving it..
Posted on: 2008/11/22 17:20
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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cuisinartvette wrote:
[QUOTE] more air does not burn more fuel.[/QUOTE]
Yes it does. Guys lean their cars out to gain power...
Illnever discount Vizard, the guy is a master. Think what he is saying is you can make that much power with that little flow but I guarantee you wouldnt want to drive it.
Lots of cam, compression and huge rpm to get it there.
These days you can get 400hp with a teeny cam , good flowing head and youll actually enjoy driving it..


Ok, more air does burn more fuel, However, in an engine it can only burn so much fuel, so you only need so much air. "wouldn't want to drive it" kinda made me chuckle. Kinda like putting 190CC heads on a 427 right? Who'd want to drive that?

I understand what you're saying, and don't disagree.

My only point is that fuel is not going unburned because the flow numbers are perceived low and fuel delivery increased. I hope that isn't the claim you're making.

When they designed it I have to believe that a first rate company like that and all the engineers they have, did not design a condition which results in lack of burned fuel due to lack of air. I haven't researched it, but I'd probably bet the house on it. This is where wet flow makes all the difference. That isn't marketing hype, and it's not limited to a specific manufacturer, most all major manufacturer's use it as do high end race teams. There's a reason they do.
Posted on: 2008/11/22 17:25
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cuisinartvette Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Any head company that doesnt publish some type of number or say they care about it, thats a crock. What other reason is there to produce one? To make it better of course and that means (at least a measure of improvement) is...numbers.
Theres a reason.

Personally it makes no doifference to me, I just find it amusing at some of their responses.."We dont care", "It doesnt matter"...Ok
Posted on: 2008/11/22 17:29
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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cuisinartvette wrote:
Any head company that doesnt publish some type of number or say they care about it, thats a crock. What other reason is there to produce one? To make it better of course and that means (at least a measure of improvement) is...numbers.
Theres a reason.

Personally it makes no doifference to me, I just find it amusing at some of their responses.."We dont care", "It doesnt matter"...Ok


Depends on who frames the discussion. If you let them frame the discussion, there are perfectly good reasons not to care, it's not as important as people make it out to be, specifically given the inaccuracies of dry flow outlined above.

If you frame the discussion on a different bias, then yes, your position makes sense. It's all about which framework of the argument you choose, neither is wrong.

That's when it becomes marketing, and you pick your horse and ride it. Doesn't make either less legit.
Posted on: 2008/11/22 17:35
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BrianCunningham Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Posted on: 2008/11/22 18:27
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dan0617 Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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More air burns more fuel. Get as much air in as you can then dump the right amount of fuel in there to yield the best air fuel ratio for making power.
Posted on: 2008/11/22 18:33
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dan0617 Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Flow numbers are sometimes the only tool we have to compare heads. Just make sure you compare dry to dry or wet to wet. Also look at everything involved, not just flow numbers. If you compare flow numbers, make sure you are comparing them with heads that have the same size intake runner.
Posted on: 2008/11/22 18:46
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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dan0617 wrote:
Would also like to add, before anyone thinks I'm a guy that is all about flow numbers, to me, a flow rating is a tool to help me get my setup where I want it, and a flow bench is a tool used to get that reading from the heads. The flow number is not the end all to performance, but it helps me choose what is going to work best for me. It is a number that is going to have some variables just like any other tool of measurement. You measure the crank to find out what size bearings you need. You measure the flow of the heads to find out what engine combo they will work best on.


Brilliant. That's the point of the original post. To provide information to ask the right questions when presented with the question.

Fact of the matter is if you allow financial decisions to be guided simply by a static, inaccurate, statistic, a little more research may yield you better results, depending on what you want.
Posted on: 2008/11/22 20:02
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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dan0617 wrote:


OK, Either I am misunderstanding, or you are. Not sure which. It is my belief that fuel to air mix is controlled through carb jetting or computer tuning the injectors. In which case the more air you get in there, you regulate the fuel to get the right amount in there to burn it.


exactly. That's where I said it has to do with the entire combination and the tune. That was my point.
Quote:

Where does the heads have that much to do with it? How would the design of the heads create a condition which results in lack of burned fuel due to lack of air? No matter what the wet flow or dry flow numbers are, that would be the tuner's problem if there is too much fuel in the mix.


I suspect what CV is saying is that if you able to increase the quality and quantity of fuel delivery you WILL have to increase the amount of air. True. However, his position assumes that the flow was maxed out to start with, which I dismiss as a faulty premise. See, the position taken, right or wrong, from Dart in this case is that they were able to increase power not by increasing flow, but to better control the delivery, quantity, and quality of fuel. I'm not saying to accept the position I am saying it is what it is.

Ron is arguing that the Dart position holds no water as when you add fuel, you have to add air, which means increased flow. Again, it assumes the previous design was maxed, which, clearly it wasn't.

Like I said, depends on which premise you pick. Each is a marketing position, each has merit, and it's up to YOU to decide which makes sense, as the consumer.
Quote:

The more air (oxygen) you get in there, for the most part, the more power you can make. That is because you add fuel as you need to. It is easy to add fuel. The hard and expensive part is getting more air in there.

Assuming the prior design was maxed out, which I submit it wasn't. Engineers are not that stupid.
Quote:

Less than optimum heads for a specific motor means you need more cam to get more air in there, and street manners drop off quickly, which is what I think Ron meant when he said " these days you can get 400hp with a teeny cam good flowing heads and you will actually enjoy driving it". Better flowing heads with optimum port size for proper velocity at part throttle (since very little air is moving through there at light throttle) with a smallish cam will make roughly the same power as heads that flow less but have a bigger cam to let more air in. But the former will be much more fun to drive as it won't be learching and bucking all over the place.


Couple things. Define "optimum". Really tough given there is no one size fits all solution. You're making a lot of assumptions here and placing a lot of personal value judgments on things which don't fit all solutions. If the above were true, we'd all be thrilled to death with an L-98. I bristle of the use of the term "optimum" since it puts value judgments not in evidence and indicates a pre determined set of assumptions.

When you talk about matching a cam to heads there are variables such as what the owner wants. Look at Pr0zac. He went 108 seperation and was told that was no good, however, over 3500 RPMs it will hit you in the chest like a shotgun. ThaT'S what he wanted, that is his operational range.

You need to consider cam specs such as cam ramp. If you have a fast ramp, who gives a shit what anything flows under XXXX lift? Then the operational range of the cam, then the size of the motor, then the rockers, etc. There's a lot to consider besides cam duration to pick a head and do a blanket statement.

If you don't lift to .600 who cares what thosae numbers are? If you have a fast ramp, yet another.

But anyway, I digress. The whole point of the thread, which has been substantiated by Ron, and you, are that dry bench numbers are one, fairly inaccurate way to measure what you need.

Quote:
I believe it is all about getting as much air in the engine as you can and still maintain manners that make you happy. A very rough general rule of thumb for me, Go with as many cubic inches as you can, then get heads with as much flow as you can with a port size optimum for your engine, then give it as much cam as you can without losing too many street manners for the general use of your vehicle.


There you go again with optimum. The OPTIMUM port is the one that meets your clearly defined purpose built spec. If the spec is torquey low end, then perphaps a smaller port is optimum. If the stated goal is 1/4 mile time with an operational range of 6000RPMs, then a bigger port, that may even flow less, may be optimum.

Quote:
You now have a certain amount of air in there, then use the carb jetting or tune to get the right amount of fuel in there to optimally burn said amount of air. Don't forget to choose an intake that matches the power range of the heads/cam setup. Go with as high of compression as you can get away with with your fuel and your combustion chamber design, and then set the timing accordingly. Last, set the converter and gears up to match the powerband that the combo has made as that is every bit as important as the rest of the package. Then, if you want more power you have a few choices. Give up some street manners, nitrous, or forced induction. I chose nitrous as it fits my budget.


Agreed.
Quote:

Do I have it about right, or is it possible that the designer of the heads designed a head that "results in lack of burned fuel due to lack of air?"


I don't think any engineer would design a head which would do that. That's the difference between a designer and a builder. A designer builds to a spec, a builder decides which one of those specs will work for the stated goal.

For example, LG motorsports puts together a package for a C5. THEY designed the cam, the heads, etc..... They are the smart ones. The builder who buys this package and screws it together has accomplished nothing but fitting parts on a block out of a catalog. Which is fine if that is the result you want

Then there's the more scientific builders who think outside the kits to get results people really want. Those guys are worth thier weight in gold.

Quote:

PS: went to far already, not going to break it down further to quinch, spark plugs, hot spots, etc.


That's where the builder comes in.
Posted on: 2008/11/22 20:25
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dan0617 Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Quote:

Define "optimum".


Optimum for me is the best match to my combo that I can afford. Each and every person reading this thread has a different optimum.
Posted on: 2008/11/22 21:31
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On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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dan0617 wrote:
I can't afford a builder, so I have to figure it out for myself.


Hey Dan, that right there is the basis of insanity. I hope the genisis of this thread was to demonstrate that there may be fault in the practice of dry flow as a measurement of performance. My goal is to help people recognize bullshit when they hear it and think for themselves.

This has always been my contention and I feel guys like you were consistently being fed bullshit and being pushed to buy cool parts instead of the right parts. How do I know? Because it almost happened to me. You can't afford a builder, where are you going to go for real, true advice? I think Andy is setting the tone that this can be the place.

If you were to read some forums, not this one, you would get the impression that if you didn't buy XXX parts you would be "leaving power on the table" and be selling yourself short. I don't believe that. When that starts happening, is when I loose it. Perceived brand superiority without evidence kills me and does not help you best manage your budget.

I think this thread proves there can be an intelligent, well thought out discussion which can actually lay out some thoughts and concepts, give you something to think about, and let YOU decide. Note this has been a great discussion and I hope it helps someone. I enjoy these discussions, I learn too.

I have to go but will comment on the rest later. Dinner time.
Posted on: 2008/11/22 22:19
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dan0617 Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Sad part for me is that my choices are usually narrowed down to finding this or that part used, then seeing what used parts are available that will match the used parts I already have and still give me the most power and make me happy with street manners.

This time I'm slightly better off, bought a used 383 shortblock with cam already installed (happens to be the cam I wanted!) and forged pistons to hopefully survive a 200 shot for a few years. I could actually afford a new flexplate, balance plate, balancer, vari-duration lifters to help the street manners, used rockers, and am reusing the used converter, used intake, used distributor, used ignition box, etc, etc, etc. The part where I'm better off is I have saved up the cabbage to buy a brand new set of heads!! Going with 11:1 static compression, .035 quinch (.015 gasket and pistons are .020 in the hole), likely 195 CC intake runner heads. Leaning strongly towards the AFR street ports as the comp ports and many other brands have 1206 gasket size where that won't work with my HSR and I can't afford to swap intakes AGAIN! Mind isn't 100% made up yet.
Posted on: 2008/11/22 22:30
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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cuisinartvette Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Dan youre not alone, most of us dont have big coin to drop, walk into a builder and say I want XX hp and tq with these parts, heres 10, 15k when can I pick it up lol.
I know I certianly cant. Took 3 yrs of collecting parts and paymens to a machinist and a head guy to get it done; lot of the other stuff was gotten through bartering, horsetrading, etc.At least you spent it where it counts which is in th head.
Posted on: 2008/11/22 23:18
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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dan0617 wrote:

I don't need to define optimum for you, you just described what I mean. Optimum ports for an L98 are ones that are pretty small (not going to get into numbers) that flow as much as possible. Optimum ports for prOzac are much more than that. He chose the optimum cam for his goals, which is my point, which I'll better define below. The optimum ports for the guy who doesn't have a cam that lifts above .600 would be the ones that max out their flow much lower than .600. But, IMO, the best heads are the heads that have the most flow with the smallest ports, "Optimized" for the setup. Optimized by choosing the right ports for the cubic inches, the cam, and the intake. "Optimized" by choosing the ones by having the most flow at the right lift for the cam.


OK, let me start with a question....you stated "But, IMO, the best heads are the heads that have the most flow with the smallest ports" I have to ask.. Why do you believe that? This is, as far as I am concerned, a proven urban legend. I would love to hear the technical basis for this argument. The claim has never been proven. So why do you believe it?

Let's take my build for example. I had a Super Ram I considered using. CV said to me, "that thing is going to make gobs of torque, give some up and go to a Miniram. Ya know what, he had a point and I did. By the same token why would I want smaller ports on my motor? Allit's going to do is put power down low and I'll be spinning tires all over the place, plus it will run out of breath (I don't care what anyone says it will) at higher RPMs. Not really a practical solution for the street, or for me. Will I feel really good about being able to light my tires at 20 MPH? Sure, but so what? Give it to me at 6000RPMs and let me make power. Fact of the matter is air can not be compressed (in engineering terms changing density) until it hits .6 Mach, which introduces a bunch of complex formulas and no real gain. So I ask again, if achieving over 100% VE is a near impossibility on a non forced air motor because port velocity will never reach a point where it matters, what are you gaining. IMO you're giving up driveability going to smaller ports.

This point is even more relevant when you yourself said go for the biggest cubes you can, getting all the torque you can, and put the smallest heads you can find on it which use a metric which is not indicative of performance, or completely unreliable.

Quote:


Going along with the above, you are right about the cam ramp rates, I just wasn't going to go that far into it. There is alot more to discuss there but I don't think that is necessary here.


The point is, if one looks at flow of heads and ignores all the other things discussed then he made a mistake. If one chooses heads by looking at the port size and ignores the flow then he made just as big of a mistake. I don't care if you look at wet flow comparisons or dry flow comparisons, just make sure you compare.




Quote:
There you go again with optimum. The OPTIMUM port is the one that meets your clearly defined purpose built spec. If the spec is torquey low end, then perphaps a smaller port is optimum. If the stated goal is 1/4 mile time with an operational range of 6000RPMs, then a bigger port, that may even flow less, may be optimum.


I can't go along with the above because I feel the basis is flawed.Quote:


Exactly. Optimum for the clearly defined purpose built spec. The best thing one can do is have a clearly defined purpose. Then look for all the parts to achieve that. Yes, for a torquey low end a smaller port with the highest flow possible (wet or dry or however you want to measure the volume of the air fuel mixture that is needed to pass through there) would be optimal.


If you have a bigger stroked motor why would you want that? Again, I reject the premise on the smaller port higher flow. It's marketing crap, no more.
Quote:

For the 6000 rpm operational range you would need the optimal port size that flows the most of any you can find for that port size. I can't go into what port size might be the best, depends on too many things. If you want some street manners in that car than you might want to go a little smaller on the port size and you may give up a little horsepower.


There you go again, how is having unmanagable torque equal to street manners? Spinning tires all over the place is not street manners.Quote:


If it is a track only car you would go with the biggest, highest flowing ports you could find that wouldn't put you out of your 6000 rpm operating range. If you want to be in the 8000 rpm operational range then you would likely need even bigger ports. But, IMO, once you decide on a port size (or a narrow range of port sizes) that your cubes, cam, intake, operational range, converter, gears, etc. can use you then would look for the heads that flow the most and have that port size. To find the heads that flow the most at that port size you are usually looking at manufacturer advertised numbers.


You're usually looking at unreliable dry flow numbers.

Quote:

You also need to look now at the cam lift and ramp rates to determine which will flow the most on your engine. IE, which will allow the most air in there since the advertised flow numbers do not take into account what cam you have stuffed in your engine. Now that your port size is chosen, if your cam has fast ramp rates then perhaps you need the heads that flow the best at .550 lift if that is where your cam is living the most. IF you have lazy ramp rates then you need to look a little more at the lower lift flow numbers, which will perhaps knock you down to a smaller port size. To go a step further, if you know your cam gets to .400 lift very quickly then stays between there and .600 and back down to .400 for a very long time, then closes from .400 very quickly you might be best to get out the calculator and average the .400, .500, and .600 flow numbers to determine which head would work best for you.


You're still basing your entire point on a flawed metric. Quality of delivery is as important. Quote:


There is no single port size, flow rating, flow average, brand, or anything else that is best for all. I hope this thread helps the newcomers when choosing a head/cam/intake/converter/gear combo.


Given, but you're seriously losing me with this small port big flow stuff. It's wrong it's marketing garbage. It is prepertrated by a SINGLE manufacturer. Do you think if this were the case all other companies wouldn't be doing the same thing? Quote:


In the end, though, if you are a poor sap like me trying to "optimize" your dollar as you don't have many of them to spend, you need to "optimize" your components for your clearly defined purpose build. And, like most of us, all I have to go by is advertised intake powerbands, advertised cam specs, and advertised head specs. Part of the advertised head specs is the flow rating and as long as you are comparing apples to apples (wet to wet or dry to dry) it is an important part of helping you choose heads, or perhaps you already have the heads and then it becomes an important part of choosing the cam and intake.


I the end the poor sap like you is going to get sucked in by marketing bullshit and wind up spending money which you don't have, and was guided by marketing, not application. The entire basis of you post has been flawed, in my opinion. You are reciting marketing stuff, not technical stuff. I guess a lie repeated often enough becomes truth.

You have allowed the argument to be framed in a way that determines the conclusion. Try reframing the argument from any other point of view and see how the merits of that hold up. Once the argument is framed, your decision is made. Don't let somone else frame the argument for you.

We were doing so well, you went backwards (joking)
Posted on: 2008/11/23 0:14
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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From the archives, for you Dan:

Smaller port size, the better for same flow

Looking above we see that there is a great deal of effort put into not only how much air could be pulled through the port, but mostly, how it will get through the port, that’s what is really important, getting air into the engine during actual operation effectively and efficiently, it’s not all about VOLUME, it’s about QUALITY. You must always remember that a flow bench is only measuring how easily air can be pulled into the cylinder, not how much fuel is in that stream or the QUALITY of the flow when operation is actually taking place. This means that when comparing cylinder head sizes the most important aspect as the SHAPE of the port and how that shape relates when viewing flow all the way to the combustion chamber. Airflow must be controlled, and hence the shape and measurements of the port are far more important that just looking at flow versus runner size. In other words DRY FLOW BENCHES ARE USELESS IN HEAD DESIGN AND FLOW VS. RUNNER SIZE IS A MYTH.

Again; a flow bench does not measure how much air will be pulled through the port during operation or the quality of delivery of that air, it measures the most simple of measurements, how easily it can be pulled though in a vacuum. Which tells you nothing about head performance.

When looking to design a port design a big consideration is to see what the airflow demands will be; they also must look to what type and how much fuel will be induced into the mix, what RPM the engine will be operating at and lastly, must look past the port into the combustion chamber and into the intake manifold. Again, a head with lower flow bench numbers which produces better charge delivery (through cleaner airflow and physics) and does so throughout the operating range of the engine, is a better, more efficient head that creates more power. Despite the mantra we hear here about efficiency being measured by some made up formula of port size vs. flow numbers, that is not the case in true engineering, or the laws of physics. It is simplistic marketing hype for the simpleton masses.

Significant hp can be gained or lost by port design regardless of the airflow number changes. GASP! A cutting edge cylinder head not only has low restriction and a proper shape for tuning purposes it also has to control velocity along with cutting back on irregular flow (turbulence). Now, a combustion chamber can promote flow or hinder it, it can also promote proper filling and flame travel (often trade offs); how a cylinder is filled is as important as how much of it is filled; all of the above have to balanced throughout the design process as there is no end all be all design that contains the best of every aspect. Flame travel, ever hear flame travel mentioned here? I didn’t think so. No one here wants to think real hard about stuff, it’s easier to spew meaningless numbers.

Another very complicated aspect of how the engine makes its power, valve and spark plug placement and combustion chamber shape have to consider this as well as how much air it can pass! To sum up, without the benefit of a wet flow bench, you would never be certain as to how the design works (and even the wet flow bench leaves something to be desired amongst designers but hey it’s a step in the right direction that measures additional variables). Now, that’s not to say you can’t get lucky by coping someone else’s design, or through trial and error like many speed shops, however, there is no science behind guessing on a dry flow bench (just what worked well in the past…). It’s brute force vs. elegant design.
Posted on: 2008/11/23 0:15
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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A bit more, and I'm still researching this:

When I decided to take on learning as much as I could about head design, I spoke to engineers.
Now understand, I am talking only about design, not modification. For example, you can pick parts from a catalog and come up with a good finished product. HOWEVER the people who put those products in the catalog need to design them first. For means of clarification, picking parts out, matching them up, and screwing it together is not DESIGN. Design starts with a clean sheet of paper and ends with products that people buy, and screw together.
We talked about dry flow and have unanimous conclusion that for DESIGN purposes it serves little value. A dry bench can demonstrate how you’ve modified from where you are to where you want to be. But again, as a DESIGN tool has little value. A head can not be designed on a dry bench. It is one antiquated method which measures one relatively useless metric.
Enter the wet flow bench. A decent solution, as it allows engineers to design a part on paper then test the theory in real life. Certainly light years ahead of dry flow as it speeds production, development, and time to market. Brings better products to market faster, and less expensively. That’s why most head manufacturer’s use it. Still not the ultimate solution, it still falls far short.
The issues with these technologies as outlined to me had to do with both technologies inability to measure in the operational environment which the motor is intended to run. By this I mean you can’t be inside the motor at 4000, 5000, 6000 RPMs. If there is a breakdown in the design there is no way to find that out scientifically, only guessing.
Well, the other day, when reading Wes’s thread, I came across a machine that does just that, allows engineers to see what happens under the operational conditions the motor runs at.
This happens to be a Dart reference. And PLEASE I beg you all to keep the conversation central to how these technological advances will improve the price/performance and quality of deliverable parts to guys like us. I don’t care which manufacturer is using what technology. I just found it interesting that the primary obstacle as outlined to me seems to be being resolved. This is the first time I’ve seen it.

As far as I know, there is no head manufacturer which looks at how their product performs during an operational cycle. When I can track down this machine, I'll post the link. Just can't locate it now. This is the FINAL way to design a head, as it is the only way to see wtf is going on under operational conditions.
Posted on: 2008/11/23 0:17
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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I have to ask you this question Dan....

If small ports, big flow are the ticket, why is it that areas where R&D money is spent in trems of BILLIONS of dollars aren't all these companies, race teams, etc....going in that direction? There is only one company on earth pushing this concept, and you've sucked it down hook line and sinker. It is NOT industry accepted dogma.

Is it that big a secret? Are their engineers Brodix, Dart, TFS, Edlebrock, and the rest that incompetent? Big companies such as Brodix clearly have the expertise and budget to do it, right? Why wouldn't they want to do it.

Billions spent in race motors where you have to build to a specific spec yet it's not happening there, and don't say that is racing, please. If small ports and big flow were the ticket, none of these people would be ignoring it. Don'tcha think?

Track cars, race boats, millions and millions spent, yet small port big flow heads are never found in places where $$$ is the goal and winning is the issue. I'm talking about environments where rods are cut to be egg shaped by 1000ths of an inch so when they spin they turn round. You think they'd figure out this head port thing?

Just sayin'....it's bigger than that, don't buy the hype. It has never been proven. Ever.
Posted on: 2008/11/23 0:29
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cuisinartvette Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Youll have to get inside GM to view one of those in action unless you know someone, no head mfr will let you in on all their research and basis for design. They will only say so much..pretty competitive field.

[QUOTE]But again, as a DESIGN tool has little value.[/QUOTE]
Disagree. You make a change, flow it that will affect a decision one way or the other on design. Seeing results is EVERYthing.

[QUOTE] A head can not be designed on a dry bench.[/QUOTE]
Cant cook casserole in one either

[QUOTE]It is one antiquated method which measures one relatively useless metric.[/QUOTE]

Where are you getting this stuff?
Posted on: 2008/11/23 0:33
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Quote:

cuisinartvette wrote:
Youll have to get inside GM to view one of those in action unless you know someone, no head mfr will let you in on all their research and basis for design. They will only say so much..pretty competitive field.


Dart had one on thier site when I was looking at Wes's thread I came across it. I can't find it again. They had the story and picture and all.

[QUOTE]
Disagree. You make a change, flow it that will affect a decision one way or the other on design. Seeing results is EVERYthing.[/QUOTE]

I said that. As a means to see where you were and where you went, they work. As long as it's same bench same heads. I'm talking from a blank sheet of paper, no flow bench wet or dry works. Wet does have the advantage of helping modify design, which dry doesn't.

Wet flow shows what happens, dry is more of a hack and guess method. In the absence of money and technology, dry flow may be all shops can afford, hence its popularity, doesn't make it better.

[QUOTE]Cant cook casserole in one either[/QUOTE]

Right.

[QUOTE]Where are you getting this stuff?[/quote]

I make it up as I go along......Joking. With all the new technology and its inherent inaccuracy I think antiquated is an apt description and the extent to which it measures is a useless metric when it comes to design.

The dry flow bench is best used by a porter, like yourself, to measure their results. Past that, doesn't say anything about how a head will perform. Again, given their inaccuracies and single metric information.
Posted on: 2008/11/23 0:40
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dan0617 Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Wet flow might very well be a better measurement than dry flow, but until EVERY head manufacturer posts wet flow numbers, I can only compare dry flow as I can't afford to buy heads and have them wet flown for comparison purposes.

Once you choose an intake runner size, the heads that flow the most in correlation to where your cam keeps your valves the most would be the best for you. You must choose the proper intake runner size or you will be making power below or above your combo's powerband, and perhaps, if too large, you will have a learching and bucking ride. Not saying the smallest ports are best. If you think I am, reread this.
Posted on: 2008/11/23 20:19
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Quote:

dan0617 wrote:
Wet flow might very well be a better measurement than dry flow, but until EVERY head manufacturer posts wet flow numbers, I can only compare dry flow as I can't afford to buy heads and have them wet flown for comparison purposes.


I am not saying wet flow is better as a measurement, I am saying that it is better in determining chamber design which can negate published dry flow numbers AS A MEANS to measure what is a "better" head for an application.

The only true test is to see the heads perform at operational conditions, and come up with a measurement of that. Right now, that doesn't exist as an industry standard.

Quote:

Once you choose an intake runner size, the heads that flow the most in correlation to where your cam keeps your valves the most would be the best for you. You must choose the proper intake runner size or you will be making power below or above your combo's powerband, and perhaps, if too large, you will have a learching and bucking ride. Not saying the smallest ports are best. If you think I am, reread this.


It's about total VE. Once you've hit 100% VE, that's as far as you need to go on any one part. That is something that is published and calculable.

I think it makes the most sense, as you say, to pick a cam, then rockers, then heads then intake, in that order.
Posted on: 2008/11/23 21:21
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cuisinartvette Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Go see Wes thread that will tell you the story on a modern smaller head that flows well something bigger Jsup..
Posted on: 2008/11/23 21:28
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Quote:

cuisinartvette wrote:
Go see Wes thread that will tell you the story on a modern smaller head that flows well something bigger Jsup..


Which one? link me

And while your at it, post 22 in this thread...
Posted on: 2008/11/23 21:30
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cuisinartvette Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Posted on: 2008/11/23 21:36
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Quote:

Responded, you kill me.
Posted on: 2008/11/23 21:47
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dan0617 Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Jsup, one needs to go with the biggest ports that he can get away with and not have a ride that is too learchy and bucky for the street (if street driving is a concern) and not put the powerband higher than the rest of the combo. I am going to go with the biggest ports I can and still be in an rpm range that my bottom end can survive. I'm in total agreement with you to go with big ports. The biggest that keep me in my predetermined parameters that are made up of street use, powerband, and compatability with parts I already own. That will be about a 195 CC for me. If I go bigger I'll lose street manners. I know because I have in the past with other engines. If I go smaller I'll make my peak power at a lower RPM than my cam, my intake, my converter, or myself wants. If I were 427 cubes and revving to 7K or so I'd go much bigger. But since I'm not, I'm in the market for the 195 CC heads that flow more than any other 195 CC head at .500 and .550 valve lift and has a combustion chamber size and design to allow 11:1 static compression on 93 octane. That's me.

What Ron is saying, you are missing. He is saying that if I find a 190 or 185 CC head that flows the same as my 195, ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL it will make the same power but have better street manners (as he and I and everyone else define street manners) because the velocity of the small amount of air going through it during light throttle conditions will be higher due to the smaller ports. He is right.
Posted on: 2008/11/23 21:49
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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dan0617 Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Jsup, please go back and edit the long posts full of bullshit. Nobody wants to read them. I already went back and edited my long posts full of bullshit.
Posted on: 2008/11/23 21:52
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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dan0617 Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Quote:

I didn't put my own together because it would not have cost me any more, and it would have taken me a lot of time. I prefer to spend time with the kids on weekends. I'm paying for that. It probably cost me $2K more to NOT have to do the work and be at my kids soccer games and pizza parties, money well spent in my book. Great value proposition.


I respect that. I bought my Corvette with plans to mod for something for my son and I to do together. He is almost always either handing me wrenches, or picking them up when I drop them into a place where little arms fit and big ones don't. It is the perfect passtime for both of us to spend time together.
Posted on: 2008/11/23 22:16
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Quote:

dan0617 wrote:
Quote:

I didn't put my own together because it would not have cost me any more, and it would have taken me a lot of time. I prefer to spend time with the kids on weekends. I'm paying for that. It probably cost me $2K more to NOT have to do the work and be at my kids soccer games and pizza parties, money well spent in my book. Great value proposition.


I respect that. I bought my Corvette with plans to mod for something for my son and I to do together. He is almost always either handing me wrenches, or picking them up when I drop them into a place where little arms fit and big ones don't. It is the perfect passtime for both of us to spend time together.

That's my plan. He's 6.

Hey, where is tyrone anyway?

You're way out there huh? if you come east on 80, let me know.
Posted on: 2008/11/23 22:17
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dan0617 Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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My boy is 10 now. Hardest part is cleaning him up after a day's work on the vette. No matter how clean I think the car or engine is, he comes out of there totally greased from head to toe I just don't get it. Tyrone is in central PA. I can be in the pocono's in about 3 hours on I80. Went to Beaver Springs dragway a few weeks ago, it is east of here, but south too. I'm about an hour and a half from there, maybe a little less.
Posted on: 2008/11/23 22:23
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Maybe I'll take a ride to Bever Springs in the spring...
Posted on: 2008/11/23 22:33
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BeachBum Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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I'm too tired to read this whole thread....

But, I am pro-flow
Posted on: 2008/11/23 23:17
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dan0617 Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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jsup wrote:
Maybe I'll take a ride to Bever Springs in the spring...


I'll have to schedule a weekend with you. Ski_dwn_it does my tuning and he goes there too, would be cool to meet up there. The atmosphere is awesome at that track. You will have to find out how far of a drive it is for you. If you drive your car, bring some extra 1/2 shafts in case you or I need them!
Posted on: 2008/11/24 0:18
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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dan0617 Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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BeachBum wrote:
I'm too tired to read this whole thread....

But, I am pro-flow


LMFAO! When you do go back and read it will be a hard read. I went back and edited out alot of what I originally said because the thread took a wrong turn in my opinion and I didn't want it to get worse. Best to lose a bunch of typing and hopefully keep a thread that has some good tech info in it.
Posted on: 2008/11/24 0:19
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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BeachBum Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Quote:

dan0617 wrote:
Quote:

BeachBum wrote:
I'm too tired to read this whole thread....

But, I am pro-flow


LMFAO! When you do go back and read it will be a hard read. I went back and edited out alot of what I originally said because the thread took a wrong turn in my opinion and I didn't want it to get worse. Best to lose a bunch of typing and hopefully keep a thread that has some good tech info in it.


Its too long of a thread these days for my small brain.... I can't keep my focus for that long.

I have a good idea what it says anyway....its all good.
Posted on: 2008/11/24 1:42
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Quote:

BeachBum wrote:
Quote:

dan0617 wrote:
Quote:

BeachBum wrote:
I'm too tired to read this whole thread....

But, I am pro-flow


LMFAO! When you do go back and read it will be a hard read. I went back and edited out alot of what I originally said because the thread took a wrong turn in my opinion and I didn't want it to get worse. Best to lose a bunch of typing and hopefully keep a thread that has some good tech info in it.


Its too long of a thread these days for my small brain.... I can't keep my focus for that long.

I have a good idea what it says anyway....its all good.


Cliff notes post 26
Posted on: 2008/11/24 1:57
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BeachBum Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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# 26 is talking about wetflow, which I know is what Dart has hung their marketing hat on.....

My only problem with wetflow is that its an unproven science at this point for street/strip cylinder heads.(actually unproven on any cylinder head.... they just don't know enough about it yet.... its not easy to see the results and then when you have figured out how to look at the results, what does what were looking at even mean and how do we improve it?)

Many years ago, some of the pro-stock teams utilized a make-shift wetflow machine and did some testing, I've heard with mixed results, but all gains were fairly modest. Thats not to say that isn't good.... it is, with those pro-stockers, every single hp they can find might be the difference between qualifying or going home on Saturday..... but it really hasn't been in-corporated in your typical off the shelf cylinder head yet, except, as advertised by Dart.....

I know they had an advertorial going around the publications that showed I think some dart pro 1s and then some platinum 1's that increased the hp by I think around 20 hp, and had around 5 cfm more flow on the intake and 10 more cfm on the exhaust. This test really wasn't all that impressive considering the test engine results..... thats not to say they didn't find some power with it, but the end result wasn't really anything to write home about. I can give a comparison of the exact same engine & cam with 1/2 point less compression and a different cylinder head that didn't utilize wetflow making 20+ more HP .... but it doesn't matter, and I don't want to go there anyway.

On cylinder head flow.... so many I don't think understand it. Its treated as an element of a cylinder head by many, but its really not, its a culmination of all the good stuff you did.... in otherwords, its the result of a well designed port, not another element..... cylinder head porters raise or lower the roof, tighten up the throat, clean up the pinch..... all of these things typically increase the flow of the cylinder head, and thats a good thing ! Wetflow and Airflow go hand in hand.... not against each other.... if you introduce a liquid in the same density and weight of the gasoline in the stream, you're hoping to see good things with that well designed, good flowing airflow.... in fact, you want to tie them together, you want lots of airflow and you want the fuel to stay suspended and enjoy the ride that the airflow gave you. As most know, fuel is heavier than air, thus it'll spatter on the walls if the air flow is too slow or in-sufficient to carry it... which is what this is all about.

Of course there are other things that make a good cylinder head.... for the serious racers, having a good thick casting that can easily be heavily modified by the serious porting guys. (Dart is one of the best with this).... also having the proper spark plug location, seat, etc..... its all important, but to be honest, all of the aftermarket cylinder head manufacterers figured out the basics a long time ago.... I don't worry about it.

Actually, at the end of the day, none of this matters..... there are around 5-10 aftermarket cylinder head manufacturers that all make good products that "will" give you a nice performance increase, and Dart is certainly one of those companies. My advise, pick your poison and go have fun with it !!

Disclaimer: All of the above is just my opinion, if I'm right, I want a trophy, a trophy girl and a good cigar, if I'm wrong, my name is Pedro, and I don't speak english.
Posted on: 2008/11/24 2:27
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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BeachBum wrote:
# 26 is talking about wetflow, which I know is what Dart has hung their marketing hat on.....

My only problem with wetflow is that its an unproven science at this point for street/strip cylinder heads.(actually unproven on any cylinder head.... they just don't know enough about it yet.... its not easy to see the results and then when you have figured out how to look at the results, what does what were looking at even mean and how do we improve it?)


I don't think it's unproven. All the major manufacturer's and race teams are using it, and have been for YEARS, it may be a lot of things, but not unproven. You buy a $5000, $10,000 set of heads, you bet they were designed on a wet flow bench. Moving that into the consumer realm is a good thing.

The real test is being able to use the high speed camera box under real operational conditions, which I'm looking for information on now. I saw it once, but every engineer I spoke to said their wet dream is to be able to see what happens under operational conditions in the cyl. It exists, I'm just trying to locate the link again.

See post 21.


Quote:

Many years ago, some of the pro-stock teams utilized a make-shift wetflow machine and did some testing, I've heard with mixed results, but all gains were fairly modest. Thats not to say that isn't good.... it is, with those pro-stockers, every single hp they can find might be the difference between qualifying or going home on Saturday..... but it really hasn't been in-corporated in your typical off the shelf cylinder head yet, except, as advertised by Dart.....


Yes, Dart promotes it, but they all use it. It's not a Dart specific thing, they are the only ones that advertise it. Brodix uses it, look at their website, as does Edlebrock, I believe TFS, and all the higher end head developers and race teams. If it were Dart specific I'd dismiss it as marketing bullshit. Hell, years ago even AFR bragged about using wet flow, they don't anymore.

Quote:
I know they had an advertorial going around the publications that showed I think some dart pro 1s and then some platinum 1's that increased the hp by I think around 20 hp, and had around 5 cfm more flow on the intake and 10 more cfm on the exhaust. This test really wasn't all that impressive considering the test engine results..... thats not to say they didn't find some power with it, but the end result wasn't really anything to write home about. I can give a comparison of the exact same engine & cam with 1/2 point less compression and a different cylinder head that didn't utilize wetflow making 20+ more HP .... but it doesn't matter, and I don't want to go there anyway.


Which would only prove on that particular combination the other head worked better. GREAT!! And if that 20 HP cost you $700 and you were, like Dan, on a budget, it wouldn't matter. Would I pay $700 for 20 hP? Nope. But that's me.

Quote:
On cylinder head flow.... so many I don't think understand it. Its treated as an element of a cylinder head by many, but its really not, its a culmination of all the good stuff you did.... in otherwords, its the result of a well designed port, not another element..... cylinder head porters raise or lower the roof, tighten up the throat, clean up the pinch..... all of these things typically increase the flow of the cylinder head, and thats a good thing !


Yes, that's what I said. Wet flow is actually the second best way to design a head, once designed dry flow, as long on the same bench as they vary, is not a bad tool to see what else you can get. But again, once you hit 100% VE it just doesn't matter.

It's just not a design tool. That's all. To design on a dry flow bench it's a grind and guess (hack and flow) method. Time and expense to market is greatly extended. On wet flow companies can design a better product faster, cheaper, better.

Quote:

Wetflow and Airflow go hand in hand.... not against each other.... if you introduce a liquid in the same density and weight of the gasoline in the stream, you're hoping to see good things with that well designed, good flowing airflow.... in fact, you want to tie them together, you want lots of airflow and you want the fuel to stay suspended and enjoy the ride that the airflow gave you. As most know, fuel is heavier than air, thus it'll spatter on the walls if the air flow is too slow or in-sufficient to carry it... which is what this is all about.



Yes, again my point. You can have a head with lower flow numbers still put down more power on the right combination. It's as much about quality of flow as quantity in a vacuum. My point exactly, once a good design is accomplished you can use the measuring stick of dry flow to try to improve it. But to my ultimate point, dry flow in and of itself is not much of an indication of performance as you point out later in this post.

Quote:
Of course there are other things that make a good cylinder head.... for the serious racers, having a good thick casting that can easily be heavily modified by the serious porting guys. (Dart is one of the best with this).... also having the proper spark plug location, seat, etc..... its all important, but to be honest, all of the aftermarket cylinder head manufacterers figured out the basics a long time ago.... I don't worry about it.


Actually, the REAL serious guys I spoke to come down on Brodix for quality of casting and finished product, overwhelmingly. Dart is typically second. BUT Dart happens to have a better website, and my builder said he wanted to use it. He probably made more money on it or something....who knows...6 of one, 1/2 dozen...blah blah blah....

Quote:

Actually, at the end of the day, none of this matters..... there are around 5-10 aftermarket cylinder head manufacturers that all make good products that "will" give you a nice performance increase, and Dart is certainly one of those companies. My advise, pick your poison and go have fun with it !!


I'm not the religious sort, my wife takes the kids to church, but may I say...God Bless You. That's all I ever said. Too many people, if you see the "about 600 club", like to tell you if you don't pick the "right" one of those 10, you're missing out. I think that is bullshit, and that is the kind of mis information this place can live without.

Quote:

Disclaimer: All of the above is just my opinion, if I'm right, I want a trophy, a trophy girl and good cigar, if I'm wrong, my name is Pedro, and I don't speak english.


Ok, funny. It's only my opinion too, I do what I can to support it.
Posted on: 2008/11/24 2:48
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BeachBum Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Good post Jsup !

I don't have anything to argue about on the subject.....I'll buy into it.

Lets find a new subject for everybody to debate.... let me think.

Okay, in my opinion, a Whale fin on the back of a C4 will increase aerodynamics 6 fold, thus resulting in incredibly impressive et gains in the 3-4 second range..... I have seen stock tpi corvettes run in the 9's at almost a 140 mph with just this one modification !!

btw, my website is www.whalefins.com if you want to discuss further.
Posted on: 2008/11/24 3:22
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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BeachBum wrote:
Good post Jsup !

I don't have anything to argue about on the subject.....I'll buy into it.

Lets find a new subject for everybody to debate.... let me think.

Okay, in my opinion, a Whale fin on the back of a C4 will increase aerodynamics 6 fold, thus resulting in incredibly impressive et gains in the 3-4 second range..... I have seen stock tpi corvettes run in the 9's at almost a 140 mph with just this one modification !!

btw, my website is www.whalefins.com if you want to discuss further.


I'll throw one more thing out there for you.

I spoke directly to Tom Barker the guy who built this motor:

http://brodix.com/heads/ikdyno.html

He spent about a 1/2 hour on the phone with me discussing this exact motor.

Out of the box he got 568 HP off the Brodix IKs, 200ccs. When I say out of the box, I mean as cast out of the box. That's a $1000 head.

On the SAME EXACT MOTOR he went to the IK 210s which were CNC'd. He picked up 29 HP using the CNC'd version of the same head. Now, some will say "those aren't stock springs on those heads"....BFD You can order the head with about any spring you want, means nothing. I did on my Race Rites....

One of my pet peeves is that these head comparisons never use the right point of comparison within the line. People will compare a $2000 CNC'd head to a $1000 non CNC'd heads, and GOLLY the CNCd ones win. Well, hell, the same head brand and model is good for 30 HP just giving it a CNC treatment. Proves nothing.

Comparisons need to be fair is all I'm saying and these false comparisons only pile on the myths and lies.

Anyway, see, I'm not as bad as you heard. Only when I get piled on or faced with unsubstantiated bullshit do I slide off the deep end.
Posted on: 2008/11/24 3:34
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BeachBum Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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Hey, its Tony Barker racing ! I met somebody from there at a big buck race several years ago that they were one of the sponsors at.

But, in any regards, yeah that motor looks like it makes great power ! Is that a 383 ? They mention the bore, but not the stroke. In regards to comparing it to another motor, was somebody doing that ?

I think that is the 242/248 comp cams grind, but not positive, would have to cross reference. I will say, one of the things I have noticed is that it seems the xfi comp cams grinds always seem to do well on the dyno ! Kind of wished I had bought one..... oh well.
Posted on: 2008/11/24 3:58
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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383 yes..
Posted on: 2008/11/24 4:43
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dan0617 Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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I wish I could run a 242/248 cam in a 383. I'd have all the power I want but when heading out for dinner with my wife on Friday night I don't think she would appreciate the learching and bucking when in OD. For me, it's all about finding the happy medium between animal performance at the track or when I want it, and going out for an evening in a nice stock looking and driving vert. Main reason I went with nitrous to make the big power.
Posted on: 2008/11/24 14:44
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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jsup Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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dan0617 wrote:
I wish I could run a 240/248 cam in a 383. I'd have all the power I want but when heading out for dinner with my wife on Friday night I don't think she would appreciate the learching and bucking when in OD. For me, it's all about finding the happy medium between animal performance at the track or when I want it, and going out for an evening in a nice stock looking and driving vert. Main reason I went with nitrous to make the big power.


it's all a tradeoff. My wife complains the car is too loud. If it becomes an issue, I'll throw some mufflers on it. I like to take the car when we go out together without the kids.
Posted on: 2008/11/24 14:47
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88BlackZ51 Re: Interesring article on fluid dynamics and airflow
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dan0617 wrote:
I wish I could run a 242/248 cam in a 383. I'd have all the power I want but when heading out for dinner with my wife on Friday night I don't think she would appreciate the learching and bucking when in OD. For me, it's all about finding the happy medium between animal performance at the track or when I want it, and going out for an evening in a nice stock looking and driving vert. Main reason I went with nitrous to make the big power.
Exactly, well said. For me it's about drivability and no dead spots from idle to 6300 approx. Hence why I went with the cubes, and the head/cam package. My builder has built so many stroker it was a no brainer. He knows what works and that's the KEY!!
Posted on: 2008/11/24 14:56
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