|
|
|
Register To Post |
LD85 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Master Guru
|
Quote:
Quote: TKO 500 or 600, you still use the push type clutch parts and a standard type bellhousing. They are rated at 500Ft/lbs-TQ and 600Ft/lbs |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/16 13:45
|
|||
_________________
2005/Z51 |
|||
Transfer |
CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Senior Guru
|
I haven't heard of too many people replacing the ZF. I've got a little bit of a special case here, very inexperienced driver on a Hurst without the crash thru shifter.
I have zero problems with it other than the clutch setup and noise, both of which can be cured for still less than the price difference of a TKO swap. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/16 19:40
|
|||
Transfer |
Jer | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Guru Newb
|
It'd would be interesting to find out the source of the failure. It seems odd that a one time inexperienced driver could cause that damage. Even someone trying to put it into reverse would just grind the gears a bit, you would imagine. It's not like you were doing 6k clutch dumps on drag slicks.
Don't you need a special tool to take a ZF apart? I wonder if you could rig some tool up to get that apart to do an autopsy? At $1,500 you can't lose in your situation. Those ZFs aren't going to breed in your backyard, so it would make sense to stock up on them at that price. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/16 22:01
|
|||
Transfer |
bogus | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
|
other than the TKO, the T56 conversion is an option.
I don't know why anyone would hate the ZF6, tho. It is proven to be a very reliable and durable box. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/16 22:14
|
|||
Transfer |
LD85 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Master Guru
|
If you could test drive he TKO and then the ZF, you would buy the TKO.
ol"Rj has the TKO600 in his 1986 , 406ci car turning 11.5's at 121 mph and he road races it,,,and that TJKO tranny makes no noise, no rocks in a box noise at all... You do loose the 6th grear but with the TKO , it's not a big deal. If my ZF takes a dump then I make the swap, but in reality, the clutch geometry & hydraulics is what makes me a little sour on the ZF. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/17 0:34
|
|||
_________________
2005/Z51 |
|||
Transfer |
94z07 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Guru
|
Quote:
It [ZF] has proven to be a very reliable and durable box. Isn't that the same ZF but different models that go into BMWs? |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/17 0:53
|
|||
_________________
Business makes progress. Fortune passes everywhere. |
|||
Transfer |
bogus | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
|
Quote:
If you could test drive he TKO and then the ZF, you would buy the TKO. ah, got ya... I do like the double OD of the ZF, tho... |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/17 1:33
|
|||
Transfer |
bogus | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
|
Quote:
Quote: I think it was unique to the C4. I do know that the 1992 Firebird Firehawk used the ZF6. There were, IIRC, 25 made and are VERY valuable today. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/17 1:55
|
|||
Transfer |
94z07 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Guru
|
Unless some transmission-fairy-god-mother gave me one of the Williams-Renault CVTs from the mid 90's I think I'd just want another ZF to go in were mine to fail. I know some complain about how it shifts and even about the amount of pressure required to operate the clutch but I like it just fine.
|
||
Posted on: 2008/2/17 10:04
|
|||
_________________
Business makes progress. Fortune passes everywhere. |
|||
Transfer |
CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Senior Guru
|
Quote:
If you could test drive he TKO and then the ZF, you would buy the TKO. I've driven both in a C4, it was even back-to-back, and I wasn't all that impressed with the TKO. The shifting didn't feel as smooth, and the ratios didn't feel right. The ZF noise isn't an issue apparently with the dual mass flywheel. I agree that the clutch setup is stupid, but there's several options for push type clutches now. I'll consider one if the clutch is smoked. Otherwise, that money will wait for another day. I finally got some time to mess with it today, only got about 3 hours into the bastard so far pulling it out. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/17 19:19
|
|||
Transfer |
bogus | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
|
Quote:
Unless some transmission-fairy-god-mother gave me one of the Williams-Renault CVTs from the mid 90's I think I'd just want another ZF to go in were mine to fail. I know some complain about how it shifts and even about the amount of pressure required to operate the clutch but I like it just fine. since when did Williams Renault use a CVT in F1? The tech standard has been the barrel style quick change for the last 20 odd years. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/17 19:39
|
|||
Transfer |
CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Senior Guru
|
Quote:
At $1,500 you can't lose in your situation. Those ZFs aren't going to breed in your backyard, so it would make sense to stock up on them at that price. I can put it in the backyard with your leftover piece of a 4+3 and see if they mate. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/17 20:33
|
|||
Transfer |
jhammons01 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Senior Guru
|
this thread.
I didn't see this thread until just now. I'll see if I can get the Part number for the Pressure plate for you |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/17 23:46
|
|||
Transfer |
Twin_Turbo | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Guru Newb
|
The S6-40 box was also used in the Lotus Omega
Regarding the hydraulics, you could probably adapt a hydr. throwout bearing and do away with the pull type clutch, similar to this (a ko 600 w/ hydr. throwout) [web]http://i31.tinypic.com/28w04dd.jpg[/web] As for the CVT, yes Williams Renault did test a CVT and the FIA quickly banned it right after. It was much quicker but it sounded awful with that constant high revving pitch. http://www.youtube.com/v/x3UpBKXMRto&rel=1 |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/18 0:06
|
|||
Transfer |
bogus | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
|
ah, that's why I wasn't aware of it... ok... makes sense. thanks!
I remember the Omega, the Lotus Carlton used the ZF6, too. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/18 0:15
|
|||
Transfer |
Twin_Turbo | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Guru Newb
|
The Lotus Carlton is exactly the same car, it was called Omega here.
I used to have a couple of those Lotus boxes, they are identical but don't have the skip shift solenoid obviously, also they have a different tailstock. Since the C4 uses the C beam, those have a normal cushion mount. Should have kept one, now I'm using a custom made bracket to convert the c beam mounting pad to a regular cushion for my car. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/18 0:20
|
|||
Transfer |
bogus | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
|
oh, yea... the Carlton was the Vauxhall version, the Omega was the Opel version... now my brain is reconnecting! (been sick)
The different tail shaft housings make sense. Is the input shaft the same as the small block or the ZR1? |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/18 0:28
|
|||
Transfer |
94z07 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Guru
|
Quote:
since when did Williams Renault use a CVT in F1? They didn't use one in an F1 race. But they did develop one using an F1 car. CVT is specifically banned in F1. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/18 1:50
|
|||
_________________
Business makes progress. Fortune passes everywhere. |
|||
Transfer |
CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Senior Guru
|
Wasn't it also used in an Aston Martin somewhere along the line?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aston_Martin_Virage |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/18 2:04
|
|||
Transfer |
CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Senior Guru
|
Anyhow, some news:
I'll no longer recommend a ZF clutch on an OEM 84-85 vette flywheel. The outer edge of the clutch hangs past the friction surface a bit, but still grinds against the flat surface around the bellhousing bolt holes. It actually pulled a chunk out of the edge of the clutch, and also appears to cause uneven loading on the clutch, which may be related to the clutch slipping (with only 200 rwhp). And.... the Chinese "Perfection" clutch was actually fractured, just waiting for an excuse to grenade. Also anesthes may have something right where he says the clutch fork alignment is causing the slave to preload the clutch. Unfortunately I just sold him my longer ZR1 pivot stud for 1/2 what I paid for it. I'll try just shimming the stock pivot stud further out, or maybe spacing the slave cylinder rearward a bit. Right now I'm waiting on a new clutch set to come in (3rd in 22 months). Hopefully the Luk set isn't Chinese too. In the mean time I guess I'll swap the Hurst onto the new unit. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/18 2:09
|
|||
Transfer |
bogus | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
|
Quote:
Wasn't it also used in an Aston Martin somewhere along the line? possible... but for some reason, I want to say they used 5spds. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/18 2:12
|
|||
Transfer |
bogus | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
|
Quote:
Anyhow, some news: are you going to use a sprung hub this time? |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/18 2:13
|
|||
Transfer |
CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Senior Guru
|
Won't fit. And I don't know of any 2-pc flywheels or ZF pressure plates that will accomodate it.
Centerforce has a setup listed for a sprung hub on LT1 with aftermarket single mass FW, and I know some guys are using camaro discs... but none of this is on a 2-pc rear car. I don't wanna experiment any more right now, I just need to drive it or I'll go nuts. The setup I'm going to will work. Hard to explain why the oem '85 flywheel isn't a good idea with the 11" clutch without pics, those will come soon enough. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/18 2:30
|
|||
Transfer |
Jer | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Guru Newb
|
[quote="CentralCoaster"]Quote:
I've driven both in a C4, it was even back-to-back, and I wasn't all that impressed with the TKO. The shifting didn't feel as smooth, and the ratios didn't feel right. Ratios on the TKO600 are essentially the same as the 4+3. Plus you don't have to swap out the 3.07 gears like you had to when you installed your ZF. You drove the car when the trans was brand new, it has smoothed up a bit. I liked the Hurst shifter on your ZF better than the shifter on my TKO600, but once you get used to the CC5S TKO shifter it is pretty sweet. You can hit the gears pretty hard. I don't think the shifter feel difference is enough to choose one way or the other, all things being equal. Plus, I don't see the need for six gears with a torquey TPI. The benefit to the TKOs are their strength. You will snap a u joint before you will hurt that trans. If that ZF project doesn't work out, you can always track down another OD unit and use my old 4+3 sitting in your shed. :tongue: |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/18 2:58
|
|||
Transfer |
Twin_Turbo | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Guru Newb
|
Quote:
Also anesthes may have something right where he says the clutch fork alignment is causing the slave to preload the clutch. Unfortunately I just sold him my longer ZR1 pivot stud for 1/2 what I paid for it. I'll try just shimming the stock pivot stud further out, or maybe spacing the slave cylinder rearward a bit. I have the same setup, a 4+3 flywheel w/ the ZF6. However I don't have the stock pressure plate, I'm using an LT5 unit. It's a good bit thicker than the other one so you won't have to mess about with that stud. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/18 9:57
|
|||
Transfer |
LD85 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Master Guru
|
Quote:
Quote: Your impressions are what they are, but I wonder why dont they make the ZF for Vettes anymore? |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/18 14:08
|
|||
_________________
2005/Z51 |
|||
Transfer |
LD85 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Master Guru
|
[quote="Jer"]Quote:
Quote: |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/18 14:13
|
|||
_________________
2005/Z51 |
|||
Transfer |
LD85 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Master Guru
|
[quote="Twin_Turbo"]Quote:
Also anesthes may have something right where he says the clutch fork alignment is causing the slave to preload the clutch. Unfortunately I just sold him my longer ZR1 pivot stud for 1/2 what I paid for it. I'll try just shimming the stock pivot stud further out, or maybe spacing the slave cylinder rearward a bit. I have the same setup, a 4+3 flywheel w/ the ZF6. However I don't have the stock pressure plate, I'm using an LT5 unit. It's a good bit thicker than the other one so you won't have to mess about with that stud. [quote] Wow, that is interesting, I never realized that the PP was thicker |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/18 21:11
|
|||
_________________
2005/Z51 |
|||
Transfer |
CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Senior Guru
|
Hmm. Maybe I'll change my order and get me one of those ZR1 clutches. Is it installed? Did you have any clearance issues with the throwout bearing bottoming out? The bellhousing is thinner than ZR1 and the input shaft is shorter.
Initially I had figured the ZF and clutch was first designed to fit with the ZR1 in its development and then later modified to work with the SBC. So I'd find it interesting that they couldn't just use the same clutch on ZR1 and L98, and maybe just make the ZR1 flywheel stick out further to compensate for the shorter motor. But maybe I'm expecting too much of union workers. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/19 6:25
|
|||
Transfer |
Twin_Turbo | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Guru Newb
|
Note that I have it just installed, don't have the thing running yet. I do have an inspection hole in the bellhousing (had to grin a clearance for a tilton starter then swapped starters to a smaller one and never needed it again so it's now an inspection hole) and it all seems to line up fine.The 4+3 flywheel is a good bit thinner than the dual mass one, the thickper pressure palte makes up for at least some of that loss.
I know the input shaft is shorter than the ZR1 one, kind of a bummer and I should have bought a ZR1 model so i could use a mid plate the size of the length difference |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/19 9:36
|
|||
Transfer |
CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Senior Guru
|
Quote:
Your impressions are what they are, but I wonder why dont they make the ZF for Vettes anymore? Last I checked they aren't putting TKOs in them either. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/19 18:24
|
|||
Transfer |
LD85 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Master Guru
|
Quote:
Quote: Not the TKO specifically, butt he Tremec T56 is This six-speed overdrive transmission was developed for adaptation to a wide range of vehicle requirements. Currently, the TREMEC T-56 is being used on the Dodge Viper, Chevy Corvette Z06, Ford SVT Mustang Cobra, Aston Martin DB7 Vantage and V12 Vanquish, and Holden Commodore and Monaro. http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/T-56.asp |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/19 20:40
|
|||
_________________
2005/Z51 |
|||
Transfer |
CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Senior Guru
|
That T56 was designed by Borg Warner.
GM has lots of history with Borg Warner. I presume the only reason they paid ZF is because at the time they couldn't get it from any of their existing partners. I would guess Chevy probably ate shit on the cost of it too, they had no economies of scale there. I would also guess it factored into the pricing of the ZR1. I'll quit guessing now and get to work. My clutch parts just showed up today I have to pick em up. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/19 21:46
|
|||
Transfer |
jhammons01 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Senior Guru
|
CC,
The Part # for that Flywheel is 6516 Standard Flywheels Flywheel Part Number: 6516 Our Price: $36.99 Core Charge: $40.00 this was the one I got from Kragen. and then the Girl gave me my money back when I brought the Core back. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/19 23:16
|
|||
Transfer |
CentralCoaster | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Senior Guru
|
Sweet, that is the one I ordered, thanks for the confirmation. I'm picking it up today. I'll post the results later why I'm using that one vs. oem.
As for now, anyone doing a ZF swap (with ZF clutch) on a 84-85 should change their flywheel to this one you listed. This is different from what I had posted endlessly before that the oem FW was ok. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/19 23:34
|
|||
Transfer |
dan0617 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Senior Guru
|
I can't contribute much to this thread....I've had a couple of 'stangs with sticks, the rev limiter always got a good workout as I missed as many gears as I hit when racing. I went the lazy man's way and went auto.
|
||
Posted on: 2008/2/19 23:37
|
|||
_________________
ยด89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
|||
Transfer |
Twin_Turbo | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Guru Newb
|
Quote:
Sweet, that is the one I ordered, thanks for the confirmation. I'm picking it up today. I'll post the results later why I'm using that one vs. oem. I must have missed something, what flywheel exactly is this?? |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/20 0:20
|
|||
Transfer |
LD85 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Master Guru
|
I bought a Billet FW from these guys, it was thin like the 4+3 FW but it comes with a bolt on balance weight, so you can remove the weight
AMD Performance 4340 Billet Flywheel = $125 http://www.amsracing.net/index.php?pa ... ore.php&idProduct=267 |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/20 0:55
|
|||
_________________
2005/Z51 |
|||
Transfer |
jhammons01 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Senior Guru
|
Quote:
I must have missed something, what flywheel exactly is this?? this is just a cheapy that I bought when we did the Clutch in my car. But when we took it out the box, the design was much better than what CC had seen before. He liked it. I guess I understood why at the time, but He'll have to chime in from here on out. |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/20 1:08
|
|||
Transfer |
jhammons01 | RE:ZF6 clutch or transmission failure, CRAP! | ||
Senior Guru
|
Ahem, I said, Kevin will have to tell you more about why He likes this Flywheel..........
[somebody nudge Kevin, I think He is sleeping over there] |
||
Posted on: 2008/2/20 16:53
|
|||
Transfer |
You can view topic.
You cannot start a new topic.
You cannot reply to posts.
You cannot edit your posts.
You cannot delete your posts.
You cannot add new polls.
You cannot vote in polls.
You cannot attach files to posts.
You cannot post without approval.
|