30 dollar 12HP+ air foil? [Forums - C4 Technical]

C4 Technical > 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	« 1 (2)
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CentralCoaster	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#51
Senior Guru San Diego, CA 9454 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 0:00	Quote: jhammons01 wrote: Let's use Central Coasters CocaCola straw in our game. ... at what point do we find the maximum?? We want more CFM so we increase the psi to 2000.....Lo! it is still only flowing the measured CFM that came out under 1000psi. OK, so we now know that increasing pressure on one side does not equate to more flow..... There you go. Yes, the throttle body has a maximum flow rate of 9,503 cfm with 1,000 psi dp across it. Increasing it to 2,000 psi doesn't increase flow. Or maybe you get a sonic boom. But we don't care. It doesn't apply to us. The TPI has less than 1 psi across it with the engine running.
	Posted on: 2009/12/17 5:40
	_________________ 1985 Z51, ZF6
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CentralCoaster	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#52
Senior Guru San Diego, CA 9454 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 0:00	Quote: anesthes wrote: By pressurizing the straw (or intake), you are flowing more air because air compresses, so per CFM you have more oxygen content. Using CFM to compare flow only works when pressure is the same (atmosphere). When you add pressure (i.e forced induction) you are changing the specific gravity of a CF of air. Yeah. SCFM is more appropriate to use. It actually measures air mass, not volume. It is pressure independent.
	Posted on: 2009/12/17 5:44
	_________________ 1985 Z51, ZF6
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CentralCoaster	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#53
Senior Guru San Diego, CA 9454 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 0:00	Quote: bigmoe wrote: Well I asked a simple question and got a 45 response reply/debate. All theory aside the only thing that would convince me either way is some dyno results. Anyone up for the test?? I'd be interested in seeing it. If your car is in any way similar to my car (85 L98) then I'd even pitch in.
	Posted on: 2009/12/17 5:45
	_________________ 1985 Z51, ZF6
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CasetheCorvetteman	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#54
Elite Guru QLD, Australia 2071 Posts Member since: 2006/7/18 0:00	Quote: anesthes wrote: Quote: CasetheCorvetteman wrote: And what is a PVC? Last i heard it was still poly vinyl chloride, and had nothing to do with engines or mechanics. I don't know, what is a mate? -- Joe Mate is a term of endearment in Australia. Over here, chances are youll be called mate whether someone likes you or not. Its nothing to get upset about, and youre just being a sook if you do. Simple things in life should never be taken so seriously, especially on the internet. Stress is the number one killer in this country so im told, and i had a very minor stroke a few weeks ago, so im staying stress free from now on ;) Quote: CentralCoaster wrote: Quote: anesthes wrote: Thats horsecrap. The PVC is fed from the left side of the manifold, and the fresh air comes from the throttle body (on some years). The fresh air circuit is cast into the bac side of the throttle body, the airfoil has nothing to do with that. No, the PCV fresh air is in front of the throttle blades. Right between the throttle bores up top where the airfoil bolts in. (If it fed from the vacuum side, and the pcv enters the vacuum side, there'd be not much of a pressure difference, and no flow.) At wot, there isn't much manifold vacuum, so the PCV system doesn't flow much. All it's really doing then is allowing blowby to escape through the fresh air connection and through the pcv. If you block the fresh air vent, you will increase crankcase pressure slightly at WOT. Thanks mate, i knew i wasnt dreaming!! HAHAHA!! Anyway, i dont think ill say much more, i saw what i saw and ON THE APPLICATION THAT IS THE C4 CORVETTE which is what is the question here i wouldnt bother with it.
	Posted on: 2009/12/17 9:16

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anesthes	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#55
Master Guru Boston, MA 646 Posts Member since: 2008/6/18 18:02	Quote: CentralCoaster wrote: No, the PCV fresh air is in front of the throttle blades. Right between the throttle bores up top where the airfoil bolts in. Actually CCV, which provides fresh air to the crank case should a negative pressure situation happen. Quote: CentralCoaster wrote: (If it fed from the vacuum side, and the pcv enters the vacuum side, there'd be not much of a pressure difference, and no flow.) The circuit is integrated into the throttle body. Air enters from two places, 1) the front cup, and 2) the cavern that traces around the bores on some years. On most throttle bodies I've seen, this also extends into the area between the blades. Some points: 1) At WOT the air would be entering the blades, which would have a higher vac than the fresh air circuit, so I doub't it would even work at WOT. 2) The opening on the airfoil at the bottom, which provides air into the cavity behind it, which supplies the fresh air circuit is larger than the diameter (3/8") of the hose connecting to the fresh air port. (see picture attached). 3) Even with a functional PVC, take the fitting off the fresh air side on your valve cover and I bet you will have pressure, not vac. Even with the PVC sucking as much air as it can in the crank case, the motor has enough blowby that the crank case is somewhat pressurized. The fresh air supply does nothing. This is evident by the typical oil buildup around the gromet. Quote: CentralCoaster wrote: At wot, there isn't much manifold vacuum, so the PCV system doesn't flow much. All it's really doing then is allowing blowby to escape through the fresh air connection and through the pcv. If you block the fresh air vent, you will increase crankcase pressure slightly at WOT. I can agree with that, but again, the negative pressure over the throttle blades would probably suck out the fresh air line, airfoil and all. It is not blocking the passage, Unless the airfoil was epoxied in. ? Add a supercharger to this combo, and you're really screwed. I always delete the fresh air circuit, and run a breather on the valve cover. And again, I said airfoils work well with blowers, and probably don't do much of anything on naturally aspirated motors. -- Joe Attach file: tb-airfoil.jpg (191.06 KB)
	Posted on: 2009/12/17 14:05

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CentralCoaster	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#56
Senior Guru San Diego, CA 9454 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 0:00	Blow through the the pcv fresh air vent on the passenger side. It comes out up top between the bores, right where the airfoil screw is in your pic. (Although yours is now blocked) The bottom opening between the throttle blades is for feeding the IAC. Yes a supercharger would change the pcv works, along with every other vacuum controlled circuit. But that question was never asked. Believe whatever you want, and go ahead making up stories and repeat them until people believe you. I have better things to do.
	Posted on: 2009/12/17 15:07
	_________________ 1985 Z51, ZF6
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jhammons01	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#57
Senior Guru 1044 Posts Member since: 2007/10/29 0:00	Quote: CentralCoaster wrote: Quote: flyboy wrote: TPISpecialties is the inventor and patent holder of the Airfoil. Their book "Insider Hints" devotes four pages to the Airfoil. They claim a stock throttle body flows air at 668cfm. Put the Airfoil in and it flows 709cfm. Then again, there is that old saying about liars, damn liars and statisticians. Those numbers sound reasonable to me. But as I mentioned earlier, the throttle body (at wot) isn't a very restrictive part of the system. So making it 10% more efficient doesn't translate into a measureable amount of horsepower. (And it won't increase flow by 10% through the system.) Plus your typical L98 is only pulling about 500 cfm to begin with. LOL....hrrmmmmm I wonder why??? What could it possibly be?? I mean surely adding a 10% flow to the INTAKE would increase the over CFM of the motor wouldn't it?? LOL This whole thread is the reason I used to make 112% on my Physics exams in College. Ever hear of the Bell curve? If 40% of the class "should" make a "C" grade or 70% watch what happens to my true 80% score 10% should get an A 20% should get a B 40% should get a C 20% should get a D 10% should get an F Well what happened when the 40% turned a true "F" score on a test?? The Professor would award enough points to the entire class (including me with my true "B") in order to bring the 40% up to a "C" level....therefore I got 30 points tacked on to my "B".....making it an A+++
	Posted on: 2009/12/17 16:48

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anesthes	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#58
Master Guru Boston, MA 646 Posts Member since: 2008/6/18 18:02	Quote: CentralCoaster wrote: Believe whatever you want, and go ahead making up stories and repeat them until people believe you. I have better things to do. Don't let me get in the way of your discussion with technical experience of going fast.. -- Joe
	Posted on: 2009/12/17 18:00
	_________________ '79 Z28. 412 CID, NP 833 transmission, 3.73 10.5" rear end.
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Aardwolf	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#59
Senior Guru Fremont, WI 209 Posts Member since: 2008/4/30 15:21	Interesting discussion! Fact, new throttle bodies have the air foil made right in. Fact, new throttle bodies have a hole for the fresh air PCV system. Picture: Fact, the air foil of that type totally blocks the fresh air PCV. But could be modified to work well. The mounting piece of metal is made to only take up half the diameter of the fresh air opening. A hole could be drilled in the air foil to let the system function normally. Picture: [IMG]http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o130/Aardwolfki/tbair1.jpg[/IMG] In regards to a breather for the fresh air, some say that is unmetered air on a MAF system and should be tuned for. Others disagree.
	Posted on: 2009/12/17 19:13

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anesthes	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#60
Master Guru Boston, MA 646 Posts Member since: 2008/6/18 18:02	Quote: Aardwolf wrote: Fact, the air foil of that type totally blocks the fresh air PCV. But could be modified to work well. The mounting piece of metal is made to only take up half the diameter of the fresh air opening. A hole could be drilled in the air foil to let the system function normally. The tab behind the air foil does not totally seal the hole. The hole on the bottom of a typical airfoil supplies both cavitites when the throttle is closed. Air flows behind the airfoil itself. We went over this stuff like 10+ years ago on TGO.. I don't understand how it's still being debated. -- Joe
	Posted on: 2009/12/17 20:22

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Aardwolf	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#61
Senior Guru Fremont, WI 209 Posts Member since: 2008/4/30 15:21	The cut in the back of the air foil is tiny. The air hole in the top of the throttle body must be 1000x the size. I don't believe that small cut could be helping the system work. I'll take a picture. [IMG]http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o130/Aardwolfki/tbair3.jpg[/IMG] The fresh air looks to be 3/8" and that cut around 1/16". It looks like it could be enlarged quite a bit though.
	Posted on: 2009/12/17 20:28

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anesthes	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#62
Master Guru Boston, MA 646 Posts Member since: 2008/6/18 18:02	Quote: Aardwolf wrote: The cut in the back of the air foil is tiny. The air hole in the top of the throttle body must be 1000x the size. I don't believe that small cut could be helping the system work. I'll take a picture. [IMG]http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o130/Aardwolfki/tbair3.jpg[/IMG] The fresh air looks to be 3/8" and that cut around 1/16". It looks like it could be enlarged quite a bit though. Odd. The air foils I've used were hollow. I just sold one recently on TGO for a kid running a turbo, and it was hollow on the back side, like a 7/16" or larger channel. Do you have a picture of the back side of the throttle body? If I recall, a passage connects that snakes around the bores. I have not had my hands on a TPI throttle body in some time. -- Joe
	Posted on: 2009/12/17 22:29

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jhammons01	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#63
Senior Guru 1044 Posts Member since: 2007/10/29 0:00	What is TGO?
	Posted on: 2009/12/17 22:34

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CasetheCorvetteman	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#64
Elite Guru QLD, Australia 2071 Posts Member since: 2006/7/18 0:00	Quote: CentralCoaster wrote: Blow through the the pcv fresh air vent on the passenger side. It comes out up top between the bores, right where the airfoil screw is in your pic. (Although yours is now blocked) The bottom opening between the throttle blades is for feeding the IAC. Yes a supercharger would change the pcv works, along with every other vacuum controlled circuit. But that question was never asked. Believe whatever you want, and go ahead making up stories and repeat them until people believe you. I have better things to do. Seems no matter what is said mate it will fall on deaf ears. Cant help that i spose eh. Not like as if we didnt try though!! Quote: Aardwolf wrote: Interesting discussion! Fact, new throttle bodies have the air foil made right in. Fact, new throttle bodies have a hole for the fresh air PCV system. Picture: Fact, the air foil of that type totally blocks the fresh air PCV. But could be modified to work well. The mounting piece of metal is made to only take up half the diameter of the fresh air opening. A hole could be drilled in the air foil to let the system function normally. Picture: [IMG]http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o130/Aardwolfki/tbair1.jpg[/IMG] In regards to a breather for the fresh air, some say that is unmetered air on a MAF system and should be tuned for. Others disagree. That design in your first picture i have NOTHING against, i think its a good design, and it clearly retains an adequate opening for the PCV system. Im glad you posted this, cause it seems everyone wants to have a crack like this ( not saying you are though ) with the new TBs having it intergrated, or the LT5 TB having it intergrated, but this is not the point, the point is the conventional and seemingly most common design of screw in airfoil has potential to block a PCV system. Quote: Aardwolf wrote: The cut in the back of the air foil is tiny. The air hole in the top of the throttle body must be 1000x the size. I don't believe that small cut could be helping the system work. I'll take a picture. [IMG]http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o130/Aardwolfki/tbair3.jpg[/IMG] The fresh air looks to be 3/8" and that cut around 1/16". It looks like it could be enlarged quite a bit though. Its clearly not adequate and well shown in that pic, and all that black shit is headed dirrectly into the IAC path.
	Posted on: 2009/12/18 0:04

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Aardwolf	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#65
Senior Guru Fremont, WI 209 Posts Member since: 2008/4/30 15:21	Sure, I'll take a pic. I can take a picture of about anything on the car, it's all in pieces right now. Clearly not every air foil is the same. I've seen several designs. Remember the plastic one? That was common for awhile. The foil in my photo came to me on a LTR setup I bought several years ago. Before I reinstall it I think I will grind out the back of it for more fresh air. In the picture of the back of the TB, the drivers side circle is for the gas evap system. The TB cover has a boss that sticks down and seals that from the PCV system, pictured at the top. The drivers side circle, I'm not sure what that's for. I drilled and tapped that hole with a bolt in it some years back, I can remember what I had attached there. Could work for NOS or water injection? [IMG]http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o130/Aardwolfki/tbair4.jpg[/IMG]
	Posted on: 2009/12/18 0:27

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anesthes	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#66
Master Guru Boston, MA 646 Posts Member since: 2008/6/18 18:02	Quote: Aardwolf wrote: Sure, I'll take a pic. I can take a picture of about anything on the car, it's all in pieces right now. Clearly not every air foil is the same. I've seen several designs. Remember the plastic one? That was common for awhile. The foil in my photo came to me on a LTR setup I bought several years ago. Before I reinstall it I think I will grind out the back of it for more fresh air. The one I used to use was the comp cams one, which was polymer, and had a huge channel and a hole at the bottom. I think I had a holley or some other brand once that also had a channel in it. After a while I stopped using TPI throttle bodies for blower apps because it was pointless. 3" pipe into a coupler, through two holes, into a plenum. Made more sense to use a 3" monoblade throttle body. Quote: Aardwolf wrote: In the picture of the back of the TB, the drivers side circle is for the gas evap system. The TB cover has a boss that sticks down and seals that from the PCV system, pictured at the top. The drivers side circle, I'm not sure what that's for. I drilled and tapped that hole with a bolt in it some years back, I can remember what I had attached there. Could work for NOS or water injection? [IMG]http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o130/Aardwolfki/tbair4.jpg[/IMG] I could have sworn the top passage for the CCV connected to one of those circles which dumped behind the throttle blades. Looks like the circle on the right side is what connects to the throttle blades, but it's the left circle that connects the CCV ? -- Joe
	Posted on: 2009/12/18 1:26

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anesthes	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#67
Master Guru Boston, MA 646 Posts Member since: 2008/6/18 18:02	Quote: jhammons01 wrote: What is TGO? www.thirdgen.org I.e, where all the nerds/geeks/guru's from Corvette forum went. In all seriousness, it's like anything else. On Corvetteforum you have like 5% tech, 95% wax. On TGO we have more like 50% tech, and 50% 16 year olds who get banned daily. can't win. We're a tech only forum however, no discussion about anything that doesn't make the car faster or more reliable. IF you ever wondered if someone ran something, a part, blower, alky kit, whatever - there is probably a thread about it. We have active archives back to 1999 when we started using Vbulletin, and we have old wwwthreads archives from a few years before that. -- Joe
	Posted on: 2009/12/18 1:28

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Ultraman	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#68
2015 Memorial Day Car Show Winner! Huskerland 14738 Posts Member since: 2009/9/12 19:16	I know lots of stuff about agriculture!
	Posted on: 2009/12/18 2:20
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CentralCoaster	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#69
Senior Guru San Diego, CA 9454 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 0:00	Quote: anesthes wrote: Do you have a picture of the back side of the throttle body? If I recall, a passage connects that snakes around the bores. That passage is the vacuum source for the evap cannister.
	Posted on: 2009/12/18 2:43
	_________________ 1985 Z51, ZF6
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tpi421vett	Re: 30 dollar 12HP+ air foil?	#70
Registered Vendor Salt Lake City Utah 125 Posts Member since: 2008/11/17 19:59	anesthes wrote: [/quote] On Corvetteforum you have like 5% tech, 95% wax. On TGO we have more like 50% tech, and 50% 16 year olds who get banned daily. can't win. -- Joe[/quote] That's some funny stuff!
	Posted on: 2009/12/30 6:01
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