ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears! [Forums - C4 Technical]

C4 Technical > ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	« 1 (2)
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MikeB52	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#51
Guru Massachusetts 61 Posts Member since: 2013/1/30 1:02	Which side of the flywheel should i be turning down .090?
	Posted on: 2013/2/20 20:08
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MikeB52	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#52
Guru Massachusetts 61 Posts Member since: 2013/1/30 1:02	Also, is there a reason i couldn't surface grind it as opposed to turning it? I can get a much better finish as well as more consistent thickness if i surface grind it. Unless you're talking about the OD....
	Posted on: 2013/2/20 20:09
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bogus	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#53
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	The thickness, cut/turn/grind down the friction face .090... I call it turning, it's whatever the proper process is for a flywheel. Surface grind is the correct way with a flywheel.
	Posted on: 2013/2/20 20:19
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MikeB52	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#54
Guru Massachusetts 61 Posts Member since: 2013/1/30 1:02	I'll throw it on the surface grinder then. I'll grind one side just to clean it, then I'll take the remainder off the friction side to keep uniform flatness and thickness. I assume it doesn't have to be as precise as say a gun part but it should be real close.. thanks!
	Posted on: 2013/2/20 20:30
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bogus	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#55
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	yea... real close. the idea is to provide the correct angle for the clutch pressure plate to function at.
	Posted on: 2013/2/20 22:48
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LD85	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#56
Master Guru Indianapolis, Indiana 784 Posts Member since: 2005/9/16 0:00	A blanchard grinder would be better, IMO, a surface grinder will give it a slick finish, as opposed to a blanchard which will give it a little grip
	Posted on: 2013/2/20 23:23
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MikeB52	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#57
Guru Massachusetts 61 Posts Member since: 2013/1/30 1:02	I can use a rougher wheel with a faster feed and I'll get a pretty gnarly finish. My work got rid of our blanchard grinder a little over a year ago... of course. But i refuse to pay the local tranny place 250 bucks for them to "turn it" they probably just use a lathe too. Any a-hole with a lathe can't necessarily turn anything correctly
	Posted on: 2013/2/24 16:55
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bogus	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#58
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	I am aware of the WAY to cut these down... but my machinist knowledge runs out on the specifics... sorry... I agree a marginally textured surface would be good. The extra bite will help a lot. You may want to grind down gnarly and finish off with something a touch smoother... When I think of a clutch surface, I think of a brake rotor. IT's been cut, then hit with a scotchbrite pad to burnish it a bit and give it a random finish.
	Posted on: 2013/2/24 17:52
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LD85	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#59
Master Guru Indianapolis, Indiana 784 Posts Member since: 2005/9/16 0:00	I would turn it on the lathe and get it down to @ .020" above your finish number, then take it to a local engine shop, they can surface it for @! $30.00 If my memory is correct, I "think" you take @ .090" off the face of a Camaro disc, but either way, knock of the 3/32" or so and then the engine shop will B.G the face parallel with the mount flange.
	Posted on: 2013/2/24 22:31
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MikeB52	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#60
Guru Massachusetts 61 Posts Member since: 2013/1/30 1:02	Thats a good call. Leave them some to grind. Plus that way their wheel won't load up taking .090 off. It'll make it easier to get it to size more accurately and keep it within tenths on flatness
	Posted on: 2013/2/25 1:58
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MikeB52	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#61
Guru Massachusetts 61 Posts Member since: 2013/1/30 1:02	And yeah bogus has given me the recipe for the flywheel, clutch and pressure plate combo. Thanks for that! Definitely glad someone knew what needs to be done seeing how the local tranny place doesn't
	Posted on: 2013/2/25 2:00
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bogus	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#62
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	yer more than welcome, Mike! Considering this sad reality, I have done more clutches in C4s than that shop has, I bet. And they have no reason to research options.
	Posted on: 2013/2/25 2:29
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LD85	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#63
Master Guru Indianapolis, Indiana 784 Posts Member since: 2005/9/16 0:00	I am happy to report that the Camaro F.W. mod is one mod I have not done... maybe there is still hope for me.
	Posted on: 2013/2/26 18:54
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bogus	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#64
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	I tried it... and SPEC sent me the wrong damned clutch...
	Posted on: 2013/2/26 20:57
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MikeB52	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#65
Guru Massachusetts 61 Posts Member since: 2013/1/30 1:02	You guys make it sound like clutch failures happen every other day with these haha
	Posted on: 2013/3/3 13:50
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bogus	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#66
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	It doesn't, really... but there have been come comedy of errors over the years. SPEC, when they started out, had QC and fitment issues, along with some pretty stupid customer service. The hydraulics were junk for several years, and that was caused by any number of stupid problems... seal fitment, shelf life... In general, figure a clutch is good for 100k to 120k miles, depending on driving style... meaning, if you don't race it and don't beat on it, just drive it... If you do more highway miles, figure upwards of 120k. More city, 95k~100k. The real annoying part is that damned dual mass flywheel... it wears out, and it costs $$ to replace. And it's not serviceable. I wish it could be cut, but it can't... if you cut it, it effects the overall tolerances within the assembly, moving the clutch to close to the engine. Also, the internal springs wear out, this is the ultimate killer... and that's why the clutch only holds for a max of 125k miles. The dual mass will finally come undone at about that mileage point.
	Posted on: 2013/3/3 16:30
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MikeB52	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#67
Guru Massachusetts 61 Posts Member since: 2013/1/30 1:02	With changing over to a solid flywheel, is there going to be a lot more noticeable vibration that the dual mass would otherwise buffer out?
	Posted on: 2013/3/3 17:45
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LD85	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#68
Master Guru Indianapolis, Indiana 784 Posts Member since: 2005/9/16 0:00	It is subjective, for me, I only heard noise under acceleration up to 2000 rpm in 1st and 2nd, when the clutch is dis-engaged and and above 2000-rpm it was fine. Your options are extremely limited with the ZF, you get to choose from aluminum and steel and what you get is what you have. Its not a show stopper IMO I changed over to the TKO-600 because , at the time, I was unable to prevent clutch slippage with my engine when I was seeking max HP/TQ @ 2-3 years ago, others did not seem to have the same problem, some did some didn't.
	Posted on: 2013/3/4 15:23
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jonszr1	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#69
Senior Guru Lone Pine, CA 453 Posts Member since: 2010/10/25 22:42	i have a fidanza in both my zr1s .the only difference you seem to get from the solid flywheel is gear noise at idle . there shouldn't be any vibration change ,unless the flywheel isn't the same balance as the original .the benefit is you get a lot better acceleration with the lighter flywheel .
	Posted on: 2013/3/4 20:23

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Scott7	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#70
Senior Guru Aurora, CO 169 Posts Member since: 2009/12/31 16:46	Quote: jonszr1 wrote: i have a fidanza in both my zr1s .the only difference you seem to get from the solid flywheel is gear noise at idle . there shouldn't be any vibration change ,unless the flywheel isn't the same balance as the original .the benefit is you get a lot better acceleration with the lighter flywheel . Completely agree. In my case the stock duel mass was eliminated when my engine was rebuild and I do get a fairly significant gear noise at idle, it's noticeable, no doubt about it.
	Posted on: 2013/3/4 20:33

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bogus	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#71
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	And every transmission or engine "expert" is gonna tell you either your tranny is gonna fail, or you have a main bearing gone.
	Posted on: 2013/3/5 1:30
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CentralCoaster	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#72
Senior Guru San Diego, CA 9454 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 0:00	Yup. It does sound like it's about the explode. Tell your passengers it's a race transmission and it's supposed to do that. Mine is only noisy with the clutch engaged at idle. It gets loud when the fluid warms up. I have to push the clutch in to place an order at a drive thru window if that gives you an idea.
	Posted on: 2013/3/5 21:07
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MikeB52	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#73
Guru Massachusetts 61 Posts Member since: 2013/1/30 1:02	Wow, I usually have to turn my Duramax off at the drive through. Its that loud? Maybe I am better off with just spending the 1400 and getting another dual-mass. Which is tough considering I only paid 6k for the car. Even though thats a damn good deal considering my father paid 22k for his back in 96!
	Posted on: 2013/3/16 19:27
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LD85	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#74
Master Guru Indianapolis, Indiana 784 Posts Member since: 2005/9/16 0:00	Quote: bogus wrote: I call it turning, it's whatever the proper process is for a flywheel. Surface grind is the correct way with a flywheel. Turning "IS" the correct term, this is done on a lathe surface grinding is typically for a fine, finish, taking off as little as .001" at a time or more up to .010" if you are using something like an 08/16 or a 12/24 with 60 grit wheel, YES, you can take off more material using a wet grinder to dissipate the heat but every flywheel resurface shop will us a Blanchard grinder which uses a cluster of stones mounted to grind small, medium and large CRS plates Blanchard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uy_mTUvPOU Surface Grinder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofeSdsV1l3s Lathe Turning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeN1etkFsbk 35 years in the trade, hands on, life is good
	Posted on: 2013/3/16 23:24
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MikeB52	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#75
Guru Massachusetts 61 Posts Member since: 2013/1/30 1:02	The turning marks from a lathe don't create a perfectly round path for the clutch to slip on? We take off as little as .0001" at a time with various finishes down to a 4.4 with our grinders. I know that obviously a 4.4 is NOT the optimal fibish for something that depends on friction to function haha unfortunately, my shop got rid of our blanchard grinder some time ago. But I can't see turning marks being very productive as they go with the direction of spin... but I'm no tranny wizard.. i was thinking of grinding it to an 80 finish. Let me know what you think
	Posted on: 2013/3/18 0:39
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bogus	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#76
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	If nothing else, turn it down, then hit it with a grinding disk to take off the circles... kinda like finishing a brake rotor.
	Posted on: 2013/3/19 16:06
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BrianCunningham	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#77
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 7763 Posts Member since: 2007/12/30 0:00	Here's what a dual mass flywheel looks like if it helps Attach file: dual_mass_flywheel.jpg (0.00 KB)
	Posted on: 2013/3/19 16:59
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Scott7	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#78
Senior Guru Aurora, CO 169 Posts Member since: 2009/12/31 16:46	Quote: CentralCoaster wrote: Yup. It does sound like it's about the explode. Tell your passengers it's a race transmission and it's supposed to do that. Mine is only noisy with the clutch engaged at idle. It gets loud when the fluid warms up. I have to push the clutch in to place an order at a drive thru window if that gives you an idea. Exactly At idle is when you notice it and you will
	Posted on: 2013/3/19 19:21

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bogus	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#79
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	I can't count the number of experts who have told me my transmission was going to fail... and did they remotely believe me when I tell them it's normal? Nope.
	Posted on: 2013/3/19 21:46
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LD85	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#80
Master Guru Indianapolis, Indiana 784 Posts Member since: 2005/9/16 0:00	Quote: MikeB52 wrote: The turning marks from a lathe don't create a perfectly round path for the clutch to slip on? We take off as little as .0001" at a time with various finishes down to a 4.4 with our grinders. I know that obviously a 4.4 is NOT the optimal fibish for something that depends on friction to function haha unfortunately, my shop got rid of our blanchard grinder some time ago. But I can't see turning marks being very productive as they go with the direction of spin... but I'm no tranny wizard.. i was thinking of grinding it to an 80 finish. Let me know what you think Don't over think it, no disrespect meant, but like Bogus suggests, rough it up with with some heavy grit sand paper and call it good. Think about the clamp force that the PP exerts, then think about the 1st or 2nd time you dump the clutch, that "few" thousandths of surface "friction" will be gone. Its way more about clamp and friction material than it is about the surface, until, of course, your glaze the F.W surface and slippage begins, followed by stinky smell and obscene language, blah blah
	Posted on: 2013/3/20 1:01
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CentralCoaster	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#81
Senior Guru San Diego, CA 9454 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 0:00	I literally melted the surface of my last flywheel. Not sure how that happened but the metal smeared in some locations to where you could catch your fingernail on it. Glazing? Hell what temperature does cast iron melt at?
	Posted on: 2013/3/21 17:19
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bogus	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#82
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	1500F? Something in that neighbourhood...
	Posted on: 2013/3/21 18:41
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LD85	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#83
Master Guru Indianapolis, Indiana 784 Posts Member since: 2005/9/16 0:00	Quote: CentralCoaster wrote: I literally melted the surface of my last flywheel. Not sure how that happened but the metal smeared in some locations to where you could catch your fingernail on it. Glazing? Hell what temperature does cast iron melt at? Melted cast iron? Melt point is @ 2300+ degrees Glazing is more like case hardening in a certain spot due to the heat
	Posted on: 2013/3/21 19:35
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MikeB52	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#84
Guru Massachusetts 61 Posts Member since: 2013/1/30 1:02	Central, did you melt it in the car? Or did you melt it while trying to turn it down?
	Posted on: 2013/4/28 12:24
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bogus	Re: ZF6 Tranny clutch/gears!	#85
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	I am wondering if you transferred clutch material to the flywheel. That's how brakes "warp," by transferring pad material to rotors.
	Posted on: 2013/4/28 18:19
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