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apeacefulstorm engine upgrade combo......
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Huntsville, Alabama
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Okay, here is where I am so far. Have an engine built that will specifically handle a supercharger.

Prior to putting the engine and supercharger in, do the rear end upgrade (Dana44 with 3:54s), TPIS headers, bigger radiator, the tranny upgrades (2800 stall and shift kit) as well as brakes and suspension.....

Would heat be a factor and would the hood need to be modified?

What am I overlooking?
How reliable would this set up be as a daily driver?
Would the supercharger shorten the engine life?
Posted on: 2008/1/16 23:40
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Josh RE:engine upgrade combo......
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Raleigh, NC
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What are your goals for the car?

There are a good number of supercharged factory vehicles out there, so they can be reliable if built properly.

Greg at blowerworks knows more about it than most do, you might try talking to him:

www.blowerworks.net

At a certain power level, the stock transmission, no matter how well built, won't be able to take the power for very long. Forum member PeteK is our resident transmission guru, he would be the one to ask about that.

You do not have to cut the hood.

I've broken several D44 rear ends with much less power than you are talking about, so don't fool yourself into thinking they are indestructible. With good parts, and an automatic, it should last on a street car pretty much forever.

What ever you have planned for the budget, you should probably add 50% to it. Forced induction is expensive, and there are a ton of things that will nickel and dime you to death.

How are you going to tune it? Aftermarket DFI? Modified stock stuff? What injectors? Dyno time for the tune?

There's a lot to it, but it is definitely doable.

Again though, what are your ultimate goals for the car?
Posted on: 2008/1/16 23:49
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CFI-EFI Re: engine upgrade combo......
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Top of Utah
372 Posts
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Quote:
How reliable would this set up be as a daily driver?
Would the supercharger shorten the engine life?
If built properly it can be very reliable. Engine life??? Think of it of it as of every engine has a given number of "horsepower-hours" built into it. They are kind of like a kilowatt hours. 500 watts takes 2 hours to use a KW. A 60,000 watt load uses a KW in a minute. The faster you extract the horsepower, the fewer the hours.

RACE ON!!!
Posted on: 2008/1/17 0:03
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Notorious RE:engine upgrade combo......
Elite Guru
Downbound train, NC
2184 Posts
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I'm assuming you'd go with long tubes too. Ceramic coated or stainless headers will help reduce underhood temps compared to iron manifolds. They'll also move the cats farther back, which will help too. When you have it tuned, you'll no doubt reduce the fan on temps to some degree too. I like keeping my LT1's operating temperature in the 190 to 200 range.
I've also taken some measures to both introduce more air into and extract it from the engine compartment. They're simple and effective but a little hard to describe here. One of these days I'll try and get some pics and post them.
Posted on: 2008/1/17 0:57
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apeacefulstorm RE:engine upgrade combo......
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Huntsville, Alabama
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Quote:
What are your goals for the car?

There are a good number of supercharged factory vehicles out there, so they can be reliable if built properly.

Greg at blowerworks knows more about it than most do, you might try talking to him:

www.blowerworks.net

At a certain power level, the stock transmission, no matter how well built, won't be able to take the power for very long. Forum member PeteK is our resident transmission guru, he would be the one to ask about that.

You do not have to cut the hood.

I've broken several D44 rear ends with much less power than you are talking about, so don't fool yourself into thinking they are indestructible. With good parts, and an automatic, it should last on a street car pretty much forever.

What ever you have planned for the budget, you should probably add 50% to it. Forced induction is expensive, and there are a ton of things that will nickel and dime you to death.

How are you going to tune it? Aftermarket DFI? Modified stock stuff? What injectors? Dyno time for the tune?

There's a lot to it, but it is definitely doable.

Again though, what are your ultimate goals for the car?

the ultimate goal for the car is 400+rwhp (500 would be nice too), a daily driver, and reliability. I think if its built right it should be reliable? Maybe that's unrealistic, but I am thinking out loud now with you guys before I spend a penny so that I don't waste time or money.

As for tuning, I am going to talk with my mechanic about tuning, and what else is needed.... Is an aftermarket DFI better than modified stock? Again my plan is to use quality parts and do it right, I have no desire to turn this project into a never-ending nightmare.... so if supercharging is not realistic, then I will get the best engine built to meet my goal... over 400rwhp, daily driver and reliability...
Posted on: 2008/1/17 1:19
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apeacefulstorm RE:engine upgrade combo......
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bumped for a final reply and/or recommendations.....
Posted on: 2008/1/17 23:19
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dan0617 RE:engine upgrade combo......
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Supercharging is the way I would have went if I could have afforded it. I don't know that I would go with a 2800 stall converter for a daily driver, if yours is to be a daily driver. It will kill gas mileage, if that is a concern at all, and it will feel a little loose. I would go with a 2000 or 2200 stall if you are driving it alot. If it is a weekend only car, by all means do the 2800. I also think the D36 will handle 400rwhp for quite a while, maybe forever, if you don't drag race on ET streets or slicks. I don't know that I'd replace it just yet. Trans is pretty durable as well, try to avoid full throttle 3-4 shifts or manually downshifting. I've hammered my car pretty hard with Nitto drag radials, a 2800 stall, a 150 shot of nitrous and some other stuff and the D36 and the 100K mile trans is still going strong. I don't launch with the nitrous, that might help. I wait till it is hooked up before I hit the switch. Again, tho, read my first sentence in this post.
Posted on: 2008/1/17 23:30
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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Notorious RE:engine upgrade combo......
Elite Guru
Downbound train, NC
2184 Posts
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Supercharging is the way I would have went if I could have afforded it. I don't know that I would go with a 2800 stall converter for a daily driver, if yours is to be a daily driver. It will kill gas mileage, if that is a concern at all, and it will feel a little loose. I would go with a 2000 or 2200 stall if you are driving it alot. If it is a weekend only car, by all means do the 2800. I also think the D36 will handle 400rwhp for quite a while, maybe forever, if you don't drag race on ET streets or slicks. I don't know that I'd replace it just yet. Trans is pretty durable as well, try to avoid full throttle 3-4 shifts or manually downshifting. I've hammered my car pretty hard with Nitto drag radials, a 2800 stall, a 150 shot of nitrous and some other stuff and the D36 and the 100K mile trans is still going strong. I don't launch with the nitrous, that might help. I wait till it is hooked up before I hit the switch. Again, tho, read my first sentence in this post.


I've got a 3000 Vigilante converter and you wouldn't know it in normal driving. My LT1 stroker gets over 27 MPG on the highway and 16 in town. Conservatively figured, we're talking about 450/500 HP and TQ at the crank. It's naturally aspirated using the "lowly" Hotcam and with no giggle-gas.
Posted on: 2008/1/17 23:42
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tobijohn RE:engine upgrade combo......
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Palm Beach Gardens, FL
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... I also think the D36 will handle 400rwhp for quite a while, maybe forever...


I'm no expert on any of this, not even close. But FWIW, when I was doing performance upgrade research for my previous 96 LT1, the only examples I could find of 400HP+ LT1s blowing up the Dana 36 rear, were the ones with 3.54 or 3.73 aftermarket gear sets. And that happened so often, it was pretty much a given. I'm not saying a 2.xx and 3.07 (or 3.31 if you're getting really esoteric) Dana 36 can't be shredded, only that I couldn't find any posts on any Corvette forums that mentioned it...
Posted on: 2008/1/18 0:18
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1996 LT4 coupe black/black
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apeacefulstorm RE:engine upgrade combo......
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Huntsville, Alabama
147 Posts
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Supercharging is the way I would have went if I could have afforded it. I don't know that I would go with a 2800 stall converter for a daily driver, if yours is to be a daily driver. It will kill gas mileage, if that is a concern at all, and it will feel a little loose. I would go with a 2000 or 2200 stall if you are driving it alot. If it is a weekend only car, by all means do the 2800. I also think the D36 will handle 400rwhp for quite a while, maybe forever, if you don't drag race on ET streets or slicks. I don't know that I'd replace it just yet. Trans is pretty durable as well, try to avoid full throttle 3-4 shifts or manually downshifting. I've hammered my car pretty hard with Nitto drag radials, a 2800 stall, a 150 shot of nitrous and some other stuff and the D36 and the 100K mile trans is still going strong. I don't launch with the nitrous, that might help. I wait till it is hooked up before I hit the switch. Again, tho, read my first sentence in this post.

well I won't be drag racing, but I will be driving it 100 miles every day.... mostly highway miles.... as I have said earlier, since I plan to keep the car I want to go for broke as it were, and get the most I can get the 1st time, and not upgrade, be dissatisfied, and then upgrade again.... so the plan is to go with either the Golen engine that is built for a supercharger, and est hp 700 (probably 600 when it gets to the wheels), supercharger, and the necessary upgrades to the tranny, rearend, and suspension to handle all that..... that is the goal.... Plan A..... Plan B will be a 396 stroker.....

Is Plan A unrealistic? thats my question....
Posted on: 2008/1/18 1:03
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dan0617 RE:engine upgrade combo......
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No, I don't think plan A is unrealistic. It seems you have the money, time and patience to accomplish your goals. That is great. If I were in your shoes I'd choose plan A over plan B. There is just something about a supercharged vette...... Notorious must have a killer combo put together so if you choose plan B I'd take notes on his setup. I think the "lowly" hotcam is what keeps his car so "usable". I chose a CC503 cam, which is just a little bigger. (Mine is not an LT1, but a L98 in the process of a heads/cam/hsr intake swap) Many people overcam their engine and the powerband ends up so high that it feels weak on the street. I think that is the most important part. I've noticed most guys in the C4 world stay fairly mild with cam and head intake port size and I think that is why their cars run so well on the street compared to listening to many camaro guys who put huge heads/cam packages in complain that their car gets smoked by a turbo 4cyl in a stoplight race. Let us know which way you decide to go and keep us updated on the progress!!
Posted on: 2008/1/18 14:05
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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apeacefulstorm RE:engine upgrade combo......
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Huntsville, Alabama
147 Posts
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No, I don't think plan A is unrealistic. It seems you have the money, time and patience to accomplish your goals. That is great. If I were in your shoes I'd choose plan A over plan B. There is just something about a supercharged vette...... Notorious must have a killer combo put together so if you choose plan B I'd take notes on his setup. I think the "lowly" hotcam is what keeps his car so "usable". I chose a CC503 cam, which is just a little bigger. (Mine is not an LT1, but a L98 in the process of a heads/cam/hsr intake swap) Many people overcam their engine and the powerband ends up so high that it feels weak on the street. I think that is the most important part. I've noticed most guys in the C4 world stay fairly mild with cam and head intake port size and I think that is why their cars run so well on the street compared to listening to many camaro guys who put huge heads/cam packages in complain that their car gets smoked by a turbo 4cyl in a stoplight race. Let us know which way you decide to go and keep us updated on the progress!!


I shall... every step of the way.... its a 18 month to 24 month project.... so as I put stuff on you all will be kept up to date...
Posted on: 2008/1/18 22:50
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apeacefulstorm RE:engine upgrade combo......
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Huntsville, Alabama
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In researching the supercharger thing it looks tempting but seems to have its own dark side and complexities that may not be worth it (to me) for a daily driver..... unless I see some info to the contrary, supercharging a vette might be good for a weekend warrior... not a DD.....
Posted on: 2008/1/22 22:25
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dan0617 RE:engine upgrade combo......
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There are complexities and attention to detail is a must, but any car can be a good supercharged daily driver. In fact, most supercharged street cars are more tame for the street than unsupercharged cars making similar power. Although not a vette, I have 2 friends with a superchargers on Cobras. The one car is EXACTLY like stock when idling and cruising, yet he runs 11.28 at 121 in the 1/4 mile. It is a Kenne Bell. The other has a whistle while idling but otherwise seems like stock. It is a vortech S trim, and he has run 11.34 at 130. Very traction limited. Both are sticks. Both could be in the 10's easily without much more modifications. The one with the Kenne Bell is bone stock other than the supercharger, it still has the stock exhaust and all. I don't know anyone with a vette to compare to, but I know that supercharging can result in a very fast car that is very much able to be a daily driver. I think it is all about the tune.

Also, Notorious put a post up about his combo. If I were in your shoes and I wasn't going to supercharge, I'd let him be my teacher.
Posted on: 2008/1/22 22:44
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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Notorious RE:engine upgrade combo......
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Downbound train, NC
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In researching the supercharger thing it looks tempting but seems to have its own dark side and complexities that may not be worth it (to me) for a daily driver..... unless I see some info to the contrary, supercharging a vette might be good for a weekend warrior... not a DD.....

Although I certainly believe it can be done successfully, that's kind of the conclusion I came to too. My choice although would have been turbocharging and I did consider it. But done correctly, these things get ultra-expensive. It costs way beyond the price of a given "kit" to do it right.
Posted on: 2008/1/22 22:50
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apeacefulstorm RE:engine upgrade combo......
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Although I certainly believe it can be done successfully, that's kind of the conclusion I came to too. My choice although would have been turbocharging and I did consider it. But done correctly, these things get ultra-expensive. It costs way beyond the price of a given "kit" to do it right.

exactly, and I want it to be done correctly.... I am going to check around and talk with my mechanic, however I am not aware of anyone in my area who can tune a setup on a supercharged vette...... not to mention the car has to be serviced.....
Posted on: 2008/1/22 23:12
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apeacefulstorm RE:engine upgrade combo......
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this week has been quite enlightening.... as a result of reading and asking questions I have decided that my project will be simple... I am going to buy a 396 stroker, put on headers,do the tranny upgrades, change the rear end to a 3:07, and call it a day... That will probably do it for me.....

thanks everyone for your feedback, opinions and suggestions.... nothing left now but to "git 'er done...."
Posted on: 2008/1/26 1:36
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dan0617 RE:engine upgrade combo......
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I think that will be a good plan. Notorious is correct in his estimates of costs on supercharging, and turbocharging is even higher. Done right you will have a killer car! I also think a 3.07 rear is the way to go with the D36. That's what I did. I figure if I ever break it I can go to a solid rear setup with a 3.54, but with the D36 it should live alot longer with a 3.07. I bought a used 3.07 carrier (or chunk) for like $300, so we just unbolted my old one and bolted the used one in. It works fine.

The nice thing about big cubes is that you can go to a bigger cam to make more power and the big cubes retain much more low end torque and streetability than the same cam in a smaller (350 or 355) engine. When I rebuild my bottom end I'm going 383.
Posted on: 2008/1/26 15:00
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's.
On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft.
On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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apeacefulstorm RE:engine upgrade combo......
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Huntsville, Alabama
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I think that will be a good plan. Notorious is correct in his estimates of costs on supercharging, and turbocharging is even higher. Done right you will have a killer car! I also think a 3.07 rear is the way to go with the D36. That's what I did. I figure if I ever break it I can go to a solid rear setup with a 3.54, but with the D36 it should live alot longer with a 3.07. I bought a used 3.07 carrier (or chunk) for like $300, so we just unbolted my old one and bolted the used one in. It works fine.

The nice thing about big cubes is that you can go to a bigger cam to make more power and the big cubes retain much more low end torque and streetability than the same cam in a smaller (350 or 355) engine. When I rebuild my bottom end I'm going 383.


very true and I have to remind myself of the reality factor... that is "no matter how fast you build it, there will be someone who can and will build one faster..." So after thinking about it, I believe I'll be satisfied with the 396 and headers.... otherwise the quest for speed will never end....
Posted on: 2008/1/26 18:56
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Notorious RE:engine upgrade combo......
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I think you'll be very satisfied with it. And when you see how difficult it is to utilize even that much power with practical street tires, you'll wonder why anyone would want any more, if they really plan to drive the car a lot.
With street tires, whether launching or stabbing it from a roll in first gear, it's pretty much a joke at WOT. And the shift into second can get rather interesting too!
Posted on: 2008/1/26 20:46
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tobijohn RE:engine upgrade combo......
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Palm Beach Gardens, FL
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... And when you see how difficult it is to utilize even that much power with practical street tires, you'll wonder why anyone would want any more, if they really plan to drive the car a lot.
With street tires, whether launching or stabbing it from a roll in first gear, it's pretty much a joke at WOT. And the shift into second can get rather interesting too!


I always wondered about this. You could have a 1000 HP but if you can't get it to the ground, what's the point? In your opinion, with decent street tires that normally would last 20K miles or so (and not drag radials) where is the point of diminishing returns in a C4 LTx as far as HP and torque are concerned?
Posted on: 2008/1/27 0:21
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