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| PLETZVET | 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Guru Newb
 
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Is it possible to over-ride (i.e. manually switch "on" and "off") the torque converter lock-up in a stock 85? I'd like to be able to switch it off when driving in town.
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Posted on: 2009/1/29 3:38
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| vetteoz | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Senior Guru
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Two choices
Can install switch on the wire to the trans to unlock when the ECM has it locked But this won't let you lock it when you want unless the ECM is ready to lock Or rewire control seperate to ECM so you have total control over lock / unlock.Need to wire through the brake switch so it drops out of lockup when you brake. This is how people who do retrofit T700's into older non computer cars do it |
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Posted on: 2009/1/29 4:42
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| Schrade | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Elite Guru
 
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Use to be, you were supposed to do in-town drivin' in '3', so it wouldn't get 4rth.
Clutch bands for second were the same as for fourth, and they were doin' double duty for each shift cycle. I did a cab in college, and they were losin' second and fourth all the time ('80's Caprice's / 700R4's). Even if you disable TC lock-up, you're still doin' the whole shift cycle. Maybe someone can add to this here... |
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Posted on: 2009/1/29 5:08
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| Midnight85 | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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I usually just leave the selector in drive around town but to get to the point, I don't know the answer but when PeteK sees the thread you will get your answer.
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Posted on: 2009/1/29 15:20
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HORSEPOWER! Some is good, more is better, too much is just right. |
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| PLETZVET | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Yeah - I'm hoping to hear from Pete K too. Thanks to the others for your responses; very helpful to know that this is possible with a switch spliced into the *correct* wire at the brake switch. Can anyone positively identify the correct wire? I don't need to have the TC lock up fully controled, just want to be able to switch it off when it would otherwise want to lock up is all that I am looking to do. When I want it to lock up on its own, I'll just set the switch to let it do it's job. Make sense?
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Posted on: 2009/1/29 18:55
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| vetteoz | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Perfect sense Info I have is; The TCC Control wire is at the "A" location On the square trans case connector.the front outside hole is "A" |
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Posted on: 2009/1/30 0:09
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| Schrade | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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That's the best choice, as long as he adds the switch INLINE to the brake switch, instead of in-parallel/BYpassing the brake switch. Question is, which brake switch lead is the feed TO the PCM for UNlock command??? That's the one in which to tap a switch??? |
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Posted on: 2009/1/30 3:07
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| PLETZVET | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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That's an important point - I don't want to interfere with the unlock function when I touch the brake pedal under normal operation - which means I need the switch to mimic touching the brake pedal. Does touching the break pedal open the TCC circuit or close it? I'm thinking that it doesn't really matter *knowing* whether the circuit is open or closed under normal operations - if my presumption that there is a single wire is correct(??), then is it just a matter of splicing in a simple single pole switch and then the first time I run the switch open or closed I'll find out whether open or closed overrides the lock up under normal operation. Or...are my assumptions here oversimplied?
Also, vetteoz...are you talking about the TCC control wire at the A location - at the brake switch or on the transmission? I'd prefer to wire the switch in under the dash at the brake switch rather than at the tranny... |
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Posted on: 2009/1/30 3:42
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| Schrade | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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From here:
http://www.tciauto.com/Products/Instr ... tructions/376600_inst.htm Step 6 Refer to Figure 5. If you desire more control over the TCC you have a few options: Option 1 will allow you to manually lock up the torque converter in 2nd gear, 3rd gear and/or 4th gear by running the green wire (Terminal B) to a grounded dash mounted toggle switch. Option 2 is for drivers that may want to shut down the TCC system through a second dash mounted toggle switch between to the red wire on the TCI® external harness (Terminal A) and the switched 12-volt source. Now, you may manually turn the lock up system completely on and off. Option 3 is for those who desire immediate release of the TCC when braking. For this, you'll need an OEM brake pedal switch with a normally closed circuit. Run your switched 12-volt source through the brake switch and then to the red wire on the TCI® external harness. Attach file:  Fig5.jpg (14.36 KB) |
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Posted on: 2009/1/30 5:09
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LT5, Marc Haibeck ECM module, AUTOMATIC!!!
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| vetteoz | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Easy , pull one of the two pairs at brake switch off and see if the stoplights still work. Or if you have DVM , the one that is closed when the brake is off if the one you want ,being that the stop light switch is open in the same position. There is no "unlock command" back to the ECM on T700 /4L60's; the brake switch simply cuts the wire to the lockup solenoid Quote:
Sorry forgot what you were doing , info for stand alone (non ECM )control. As stated above , install a switch on either of the the TCC wires that go to the brake switch. The TCC switch at the brake is normally closed so that the lockup signal goes to the trans when the ECM commands it. If you hit the brake it opens the circuit ( the same as what your switch will do ) and drops the lockup out. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/30 6:49
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| JrRifleCoach | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Sure! you can use the ALDL connector and pin pins "A & F" to a switch like this. This process does not override the brake safety switch. My only suggestion is to engage the TQ override after your rolling. Otherwise its like shifting without the clutch..  |
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Posted on: 2009/1/30 7:13
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| PLETZVET | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Thanks gentlemen for the excellent information and instructions - I will definitely install the switch and splice into the wires at the brake light switch. I have a couple of DVM's, so no problem identifying the wires now that I know whether to look for the correct open and closed curcuits. By the way, that is a nice install of a switch right on the shifter, JrRifle. The shifter knob in your pic, tho is not quite the same as the leather-wrapped knob on my '85 which is over hard plastic. I'm thinking that I will install my switch (I'm thinking a rocker style) discretely under the hush panel to the left of the steering column.
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Posted on: 2009/1/31 5:06
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| JrRifleCoach | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Well Sir, before you start digging into the brake switch. My suggestion is to build a simple under the dash switch as I have pictured here. See those two silver spots? Those are small nails that are soldered to the small switch and mounted to a piece of plastic. So when I need to access the ALDL port, the assembly simply pulls out when using the port.
 I used this switch for a few months and found that the shifter switch is much more comfortable to drive with. As for the knob pictured. I removed the leather cover from a stocker and moulded in a SPST microswitch. A few coats of semi-gloss black krylon and ran the wiring under the console cover to the ALDL connector. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/31 5:54
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As democracy is perfected, the POTUS represents more closely the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a fool and narcissistic moron. |
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| Schrade | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Nifty work. Exactly which pins did you wire into the switch? Are they pre-existing leads? Or did you use unpopulated sockets in the connector, with new wiring imported INTO it??? |
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Posted on: 2009/1/31 15:45
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LT5, Marc Haibeck ECM module, AUTOMATIC!!!
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| JrRifleCoach | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Its so simple. The diagram connector is actually upside down from the way its mounted on the car. So you can see, simply jumping pin F to ground is all that is needed. And since the A is a ground.......just hook'em together with a switch. Cool huh? [img width=400]  [/img] |
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Posted on: 2009/2/1 7:52
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| PLETZVET | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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[quote]
JrRifleCoach wrote: My only suggestion is to engage the TQ override after your rolling. Otherwise its like shifting without the clutch.. quote] JrRifle - I'm don't understand the precauton that you mentioned above. The torque converter lock up is not engaged before the car gets rolling (with the switched circuit open or closed) and the purpose of the switch is to prevent (override) it from locking up after you are rolling - so how are any of these circumstances like shifting without a clutch? |
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Posted on: 2009/2/1 17:07
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| vetteoz | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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PLETZVET wrote: As the ALDL is normally used for testing I am thinking that connecting A-F over rides any ECM settings and commands the ECM to engage the TCC regardless of any other parameters such as road speed |
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Posted on: 2009/2/2 3:20
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| JrRifleCoach | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Exactly! This A/F switch will override the TC lock signal from the ECM. Except for first gear. So if you engage the switch from a standstill, the TC will lock once the 1-2 shift engages. Then each upshift of the trans will happen with a locked TC. (Harsh on the drive train) My usage is to engage the lock when I have the trans in "D" or 3rd and when RPM's mandate I'll up shift to "OD" or 4th. Now if one is so inclined and the brake switch is disabled/overrided, the TC will remained locked. Which will stall the engine when braking to a full stop. Personally I like to override the brake switch when spirited driving requires the braking action of both the engine and the brakes. Without this override the TC will disengage each time the brake is applied and re-engage once the brake is released. Just gotta remember to flip the switch when stopping!! Hope this clears up your questions |
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Posted on: 2009/2/2 7:33
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| PLETZVET | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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I'm more confused...is putting the switch between A/F terminals is the same as splicing a switch into the TCC wire at the brake switch?
I ask this because what difference is there between starting from a stand still with one foot riding the brake pedal (i.e. brake lights are on, and the TC lock up curcuit is open) and starting with an open TCC circuit controled by the switch? |
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Posted on: 2009/2/2 15:11
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| JrRifleCoach | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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As I've read the TCC info, yes.
Lets get back on topic for a minute. You originally wanted to manually engage the TC. Switching between ALDL pins A & F accomplishes this task. Easily and cheaply. No muss no fuss. This is a common mod for those who want to lock the TC. Now, if your inclined to purchase the kit and dump the tranny pan to accomplish the same task, go for it. IMHO disabling the brake switch is risky since the drivetrain will suffer when ever you forget to re-engage and stop. |
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Posted on: 2009/2/2 23:02
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| Aardwolf | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Personally I like to override the brake switch when spirited driving requires the braking action of both the engine and the brakes. This won't change your braking distance as your tires traction to stop the car doesn't increase. Are there other uses for this mod? I've been following the thread and wondered. |
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Posted on: 2009/2/2 23:06
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| JrRifleCoach | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Agreed, however when coasting or braking it uses some engine drag. Not alot, but once you hit the brake it dumps the TC clutch and that requires more brakes. Kinda like shifting into neutral as you approach the turn. The fix is to stay on the throttle to keep from upseting the suspension. Not fun when the wifey is on board.
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Posted on: 2009/2/3 3:53
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As democracy is perfected, the POTUS represents more closely the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a fool and narcissistic moron. |
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| PLETZVET | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Quote:
OK - back on topic...in my original question, I was inquiring about how to over-ride the lock up function and explained that I did not want it locking up automatically while I was driving in town. I further wanted to be able to switch it back to normal so it would lock up as per ECM parameters, for example - normal highway driving. I don't have any reason to make it lock up when it is not normally supposed to. And this brings me back to my question...if touching the brake pedal unlocks the TC by opening the circuit, then why couldn't a switch do the same thing? And, therefore, I don't understand the notion how with the circuit open (i.e. using the switch) is any different than accelerating with my foot pressed lightly on the brake pedal sufficient to light the brake lights. The TC would not be locked up in either instance, and would only lock up if the ECM sensed the appropriate parameters AND the switch was set to close the circuit. How could forgetting to re-engage the switch and stopping put stress on the transmission? Am I missing something?? |
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Posted on: 2009/2/3 4:30
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| vetteoz | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Quote:
Correct As I outlined in post # 10 |
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Posted on: 2009/2/3 7:13
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| JrRifleCoach | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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DUH!!!!! I missed that your wanting to keep the TC unlocked!
Sorry, my bad! |
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Posted on: 2009/2/4 5:20
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As democracy is perfected, the POTUS represents more closely the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a fool and narcissistic moron. |
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| PLETZVET | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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No problem - lots of great discussion on this topic and it has been very helpful. I'll add this to my list of projects when the car comes out this spring. |
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Posted on: 2009/2/4 19:08
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| Aardwolf | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Have you tested it at all at drag racing, locked veruses unlocked?
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Posted on: 2009/2/4 19:24
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| CentralCoaster | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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When does it lock up when drag racing? It seems like the computer should keep it unlocked anytime you've got the throttle opened up that far. The vacuum controlled setups do that.
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Posted on: 2009/2/4 20:36
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| PLETZVET | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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If Aardwolf's question was directed to me - the answer is no, I haven't drag raced it. However, when driven under aggressive acceleration, the TC does not lock up until rpms are down and I am approaching cruising speed. I do find that it lugs down a bit longer than I like when in lock-up mode before disengaging (e.g. hill climbing)
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Posted on: 2009/2/5 4:46
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| PLETZVET | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Update...
I finally got around to doing this little mod. I removed the driver's side hush panel and located 2 switches that are activated by the brake pedal. I isolated the switch that controls the TC lock up/unlock function - it is the switch with the vacuum line (cruise control) attached to it. There is a 2-wire plug that also goes to that switch. I patched a single pole rocker switch into the pink wire in that plug. When the circuit is open, there is no TC lock up - just what I wanted. Flick the switch (i.e. closing the circuit) and the lock up funtion is restored. This feature is really nice for city, and secondary highway driving because the TC is not locking up at slower speeds and it is a dream to drive when climbing hills and the engine begins to lug while the TC is still in lock up mode. The auto transmission shifts very appropriately between 3rd and 4th gear without going in and out of lock up. I thought that with the switch in open circuit mode, I would have lost cruise control functionality but I tested that tonight and cruise control works whether the TC is locked up or unlocked. The rocker switch is mounted in the centre console near the shifter. I'll take a picture and post later. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/5 4:16
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| vetteoz | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Glad it works as you wanted
Some of the stock TCC lockup parameters . Once at operating temp everything appears speed related.It would appear you get lockup at the set speed ; regardless of how hard you have your foot down The only setting relating to throttle position is the "TPS low MPH coast load limit" set at 3%TPS click on pic [IMG]http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u309/vetteoz/TCCparameters.jpg[/IMG] |
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Posted on: 2009/6/5 5:41
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| PLETZVET | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Thanks for sharing the chart. If I'm reading it correctly, it shows the speed at which the TC unlocks at 35 mph. That is probably okay on the highway and not climbing a hill, for example but when climbing a hill at say 40 mph, that's when it really starts to lug down and requires me to push the throttle a bit to get it to unlock and then as soon as I let off the throttle, it locks up again. With the switch, it stays unlocked until I want it to lock up again.
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Posted on: 2009/6/5 12:03
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| dan0617 | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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On my '89 with 165 and 6E, there is another grouping of TCC settings under the Tables/Functions all labeled "TCC Lock vs TPS" or "TCC Unlock vs TPS", and " in 4th or Not in 4th". That is where you can change how much pedal you give it before it unlocks, or where you can change when it locks up depending how hard you are on the pedal. Not sure of your XDF or code has that or not but mine does. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/5 14:09
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| dan0617 | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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If desired you can change the settings I mentioned in my previous post. Trial and error though as to what settings you would like the best. Also, I did what you did with the switch only I removed the wires from the brake switch and jumpered a switch between the 2 of them, effectively eliminating the brake pedal TCC unlock switch and letting me use my switch to unlock the converter any time the computer would normally have it locked. For me this did 2 good things: Doesn't unlock the converter when I touch the brake, then have to rev up to relock when back on the gas, (on decel the converter is set to unlock at 43 mph anyway which works for me) and Lets me lock the converter on my nitrous runs at the top of 2nd gear, and lets me keep it unlocked to 115 or so mph on my non nitrous runs. CC, yes, there is a setting in the tune called "TCC Unlock Prevention Threshlold" that lets you enter the MPH you want the converter to lock at during WOT. If the car is geared and stalled properly for the 1/4 mile, you will likely want it to lock near the top of 2nd gear, or just after the 2-3 shift. If you are running highway gears and the high stall converter is bandaiding them to keep your engine in it's powerband (3.07's and a 2800 stall is my setup, for example), locking that early will drop the rpms way down below the powerband so it is best to lock it up at a higher rpm so the converter keeps stalling longer and keeps the motor in the sweet spot for more of the run. Even then, I've found it best so far for me to lock at around 115 to eliminate the converter stall efficiency loss from slippage at high speeds. Locking it before the 2-3 shift when spraying keeps me off the rev limiter during the shift though, and all the torque from the nitrous and my higher than stock peak torque means it falls right into a sea of torque after the shift. As a side note, the converter is set to lock at WOT in the stock tunes I've seen, but be careful when you add power to your car. IF the converter is stock or like stock, a high powered car will destroy it quickly with WOT locking. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/5 14:29
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| PLETZVET | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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<smile> - you guys are talking about how to use this little mod at the track and here I am - just a *Sunday afternoon cruiser* looking at how it improves my ride on the back roads and getting across town. Good to see that it has applicaations in both settings.
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Posted on: 2009/6/5 16:44
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| vetteoz | Re: 700R4 TC lock-up | ||
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Missed those :stupidwith: |
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Posted on: 2009/6/6 4:42
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