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| CorvetteBob | Throttle Body Connections | ||
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This is regarding EARLY C4 vacuum/PCV and EVAP connections.
Some time ago, I created a thread regarding my Vette stalling out when I got off the highway and stopped, and at other inappropriate times. It's not only a pain in the but, It's dangerous as I lose my power brakes without warning, and it gets much harder to steer as well. This week I've been looking into it some more and I seem to recall someone asking the question about my PCV working correctly. I put a new PCV valve on and it did not seem to be the answer. So this week as I'm messing with it, I got out BOTH the haynes and FSM and they both said the same thing almost word-for-word as to how the PCV works. With the engine warm, and at idle, I get plenty of vacuum at the PCV, and I get a decent pull at the breather fitting on the right valve cover going in toward the the crankcase and ultimately to the PCV. BUT, and this is where it caught me, the vacuum should be pulling more toward the throttle body from the right side v-c fitting! OK, if this is true, it's possible that at some point I got my vacuum connections bass-ackwards. Currently, my PCV line to the right valve cover is connected to the top, or larger, vacuum connection on the right side of the T-body. It draws air from in front of the throttle blades. And again, with the engine idling, it seems to have almost NO vacuum draw from that port. My EVAP system vacuum line is currently connected to the lower, or smaller, connection and draws vacuum from behind the throttle blades. Is this the correct configuration, or did I at some point get them switched w/ each other? I've looked thru both books for better diagrams/descriptions and I only found one pic in the haynes that showed what appeared to have the T-body lower connection going to the PCV, and the EVAP connection going to the top. I need some help here guys, how are your hooked up on you early TPI C4's? Thanks for any help you can offer....... |
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Posted on: 2013/5/9 6:07
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| bogus | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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I am away from my manuals... Refresh my memory, 1987, right?
I will research tomorrow. |
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Posted on: 2013/5/9 6:50
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| CorvetteBob | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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It's an '88, but I'm thinking (hoping) the early C4 TPI cars should've been similar. |
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Posted on: 2013/5/9 7:20
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| vetteoz | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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Quote:
You are correct, Quote:
There is no vac on the line to the pass side rocker cover, it is supply air at atmosphere pressure only. At best you may get some passing suction when the engine is at WOT When you go WOT and there is little vac to pull the fumes through the PCV valve, the fumes go back UP the supply line to the TB ; hence the complaints about oil contamination in the TB / plenum ; ie where does the oil come from? If as you surmise you were to have vac on both rocker covers there would be no flow for the fumes to be sucked out of the engine as both vac source would be at the same potential |
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Posted on: 2013/5/9 7:58
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| CorvetteBob | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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I just re-read my 1st post, so let me try to boil it down.
Rt side PCV breather tube is hooked up to top/large port of t-body that leads to opening in front of throttle blades. Been this way for a good long while. The lower/smaller port is currently connected to the 5/16's line that leads to the Evaporative system. That port pulls raw vacuum from directly behind the throttle blades. There is a small 3/16 line connected to the bottom left of the t-body, and it goes to the Evap system as well. That port draws from in front of the throttle blades, and due to it's size, placement and direction of the line it feeds, is not being questioned in this topic. The car will idle, but there's little if any vacuum at the large port the tube is on in order to operate the PCV. Also, there have been times when the car would sit and hunt for a steady idle as the RPM would rise and fall more and more. It would get to where it would falter between rising RPM's and then falter again, repeating this a few times and finally stall. The IAC valve has been reset several times. Thinking back to my '68 Vette, my PCV was hooked up to the plenum below the base of the carb to get full vacuum. So was my '67 Camaro beater. I guess the problem I'm having with these connections is that the two on the right side of the t-body are so different in size and that the current connections actually fit the size of the ports they're on. Again, thanks in advance for your help Andy. |
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Posted on: 2013/5/9 8:13
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| CorvetteBob | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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Thanks for that OZ, you posted that as I was writing my 2nd post. I'm not looking for equal vacuum on each side, but with the way things are hooked up now, there's not enough vacuum to actually operate the PCV valve. The pcv closes off towards the bottom of the valve w/ high vacuum and opens w/ low vacuum when the spring in the valve overcomes light vacuum and allows it to open. The valve ,IF I understand it correctly, is to be open during periods of lower vacuum (like highway speeds) since times of high vacuum such as idling would allow excess air into the plenum without the benefit of a proper air/fuel ratio, causing the issues at hand.
I'm not trying to argue w/ anyone after you've gone to the trouble of helping, I'm just trying to relay how it is that I understand the operation of the PCV valve. |
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Posted on: 2013/5/9 8:25
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| CorvetteBob | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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For some reason the "EDIT" button isn't on my posts, so I'll add another.
Back to Vetteoz's suggestion. After getting some sleep, I think I see your point. Obviously, the PCV system needs a source at normal atmosphere to draw from in order to then pull thru the crankcase. The difficulty I see here, is that with the valve I have, and the the current routing of hoses, the PCV will constantly be pulled open. (I've checked several sources and their PCV's are alike.) With the PCV open at high vacuum, such as when idling or other periods when throttle blades are suddenly closed, the open valve allows air to enter the intake causing a lean condition causing stumble or stalling. This whole thing makes me think : 1) my t-body vacuum connections are incorrect and need to be switched, OR 2) Both the FSM and the Haynes manuals diagrams are incorrect by showing the PCV on the wrong valve cover, OR 3) The aftermarket is all wrong in the PCV's they're selling us. OK, so NOW the edit button come on? |
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Posted on: 2013/5/9 15:54
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| Matatk | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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Bob, your system should look like the diagram below.
Matthew Attach file:  1989 corvette evap pcv.gif (0.00 KB) |
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Posted on: 2013/5/9 17:48
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| Matatk | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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Also, the passenger side valve cover hose connects to the top throttle body connection:
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Posted on: 2013/5/9 17:50
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| vetteoz | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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Quote:
How so? As you correctly explained above , the valve has restricted flow at high vac (idle ) "The valve is simple, but actually performs a complicated control function. With the engine running, the tapered end of the internal restrictor is drawn towards the opening in the PCV valve by manifold vacuum, restricting the opening proportionate to the level of engine vacuum vs. spring tension. At idle, the intake manifold vacuum is near maximum. It is at this time the least amount of blow by is actually occurring, so the PCV valve provides the largest amount of (but not complete) restriction. As engine load increases, vacuum on the valve decreases proportionally and blow by increases proportionally. With a lower level of vacuum, the spring returns the cone to the "open" position to allow more air flow. At full throttle, vacuum is much reduced, down to between 1.5 and 3" Hg. At this point the PCV valve is nearly useless, and most combustion gases escape via the "breather tube" where they are then drawn in to the engine's intake manifold anyway" Does the PCV valve operate if you put your finger over it's open end when it is removed from the rocker cover? |
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Posted on: 2013/5/10 5:02
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| CorvetteBob | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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Ok, I'll take these as they came.
Matt, the diagram in post #8 is correct, and my lines are configured that way. Also, as in post #9, you are again correct, and my pass side valve cover hose does connect to the top/large fitting on the t-body. And finally to OZ, yes there's vacuum at the PCV and it does shut when I put a finger over it. You are also correct. After reading and re-reading all our postings, what you were stating began to sink in. While I didn't have as complete an understanding as I do now that you've described it, I think I was on the right track afterall. Thanks for the description and clarification of the PCV system. I guess I'm once again guilty of overthinking things on this one. Also, as it would happen, a local dealer here had an AC-DELCO PCV in stock so I bought it. My aftermarket part has the letter "F" on it's piston, and the AC part has "E" on it. So if there's an actual industry standard, I'm thinking there's differences in weight, length, spring tension, and flow characteristics that make the AC unit necessary. None of the aftermarket units had the letter "E". They all had an "F", if anything at all. and none of the aftermarket valves seemed to have the same ability to close itself like the AC. While at the dealer, I was able to speak w/ a tech regarding PCV systems, and he also helped set me back on the right path. At his suggestion, I put in the new PCV, then I did the "Set Minimum Idle" procedure as in the FSM. Once done, I notice things were better (W/ AC off), but not cured as the engine would still stall (w/ A/C on) after a blip of the gas, or after letting off from a steady RPM. I had a can Ether, so I sprayed around as much of the SuperRam as I could searching for vacuum leaks. I didn't detect any. Finally, I shut off the engine and disconnected the Neg battery cable to clear any possible codes. After a bit, I re-connected and started back up, and this time w/ the AC on, it didn't seem to wanna die on me with the blip of the gas or from a steady rpm with a let off as if stopping at a light. So who knows? Maybe I'm onto something here? I really need to get it licensed and insured so I can drive it a bit. Also, I'm wondering if I detected a bit of a miss in the engine as maybe a plug or two were intermittently misfiring. So that's another possible idea to look at. I'm not sure if they can do it, but I'm wondering if the Chevy dlr can hook this up to a scope or diagnostic computer to determine if there is in fact something misfiring. OR, is there an available scan tool for a price that's practical for guys like us? Any suggestions? I've got the Innova tool, but I think it only goes as far as trouble codes for the old OBD1 cars like the early C4's. Any ideas on good scanners? Geez, it's well after 3am again. I gotta get some sleep for a change. |
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Posted on: 2013/5/10 7:13
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| Matatk | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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I'm confused because above you said your pcv was on the right side. When most car people refer to the "side", it is as if you were sitting in the driver's seat. IE - left = driver's side, right = passenger's side. Can you clarify how yours is set up? |
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Posted on: 2013/5/10 17:28
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| Matatk | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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Used tech 1, maybe a used autoxray scanner, or an ALDL cable and laptop with tuning software. |
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Posted on: 2013/5/10 17:30
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| CorvetteBob | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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Quote:
Mine was set up correctly all along. I was just too busy overthinking the whole thing to get it right. As per the question, As sitting in the driver seat, the left side is where it was located. And once again I'm guilty of not thinking while overthinking. If that makes any sense. I do this this kind of crap all the time, I get so damned focused on something, I forget to think of how I'm describing it. I'm sorry for the confusion. I think I need to change my username to "DyslexoBob." That's a name that more than one person has given me. |
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Posted on: 2013/5/11 6:44
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| Matatk | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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Well, I'm glad that the system is functioning properly. You are not the only one guilty of overthinking things like that!
If the stalling continues, we will have to track down the culprit. |
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Posted on: 2013/5/11 11:45
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| CorvetteBob | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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The stalling has been abated a good bit, but I'm not entirely comfortable w/ the way it behaves under those same conditions. It seems as if it still may want to try to stall, but just doesn't. The other night I did the minimum idle setting, but that was using the dash tach. I'm hoping to find an inductive, handheld tach to use that would be more accurate. Also, I would have double checked the TPS voltage, but my meter's batteries were dead.
Matt, was this the type of piece your talking about for a diagnostic tool? Does it look to be as complete as I would need it? http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-TECH-1-SCA ... sh=item4172f13a07&vxp=mtr |
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Posted on: 2013/5/11 18:10
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| Matatk | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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That's it, Bob, but that's an insane price. Around the $200-250 price range for the scanner, cable, and a few basic cartridges is about going rate. The mass data cartridge is good to have, but a basic ecm cartridge covering your year is enough especially since you have an early car. You also need the e pin adapter. I scored a killer deal on CL and paid $100 for mine, only took me 4 years to find it
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Posted on: 2013/5/11 21:39
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| CorvetteBob | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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I thought the price was probably a bit out of line. I'll keep looking.
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Posted on: 2013/5/12 2:37
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| vetteoz | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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Quote:
http://www.aldlcable.com/ and use some free software on your laptop or netbook. Quote:
By running the datalogging program you can observe and adjust the TPS volts or RPM in real time ( no DVM or adapter for the TPS connection needed ) |
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Posted on: 2013/5/12 8:20
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| Matatk | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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I agree with what Vetteoz said. I have both, though, as they serve different functions. For cost, the cable is the way to go. I personally use the Tech 1 if I have to adjust the tps now, but did it the backpin/voltmeter method before I had it.
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Posted on: 2013/5/12 11:44
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| Schrade | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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Have you found the vac leak yet? Tuning / diagnosing with a vac leak is not easy to do (I think it CANNOT be done)... To find the leak (and only one person of DOZENS to whom I've directed, actually posted that he'd found the vac leak (and it was on THIS board - user weavsvett ) ) , do this: Quote: Originally Posted by Schrade View Post |
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Posted on: 2013/5/12 18:57
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| CorvetteBob | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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VetteOz-- I'm all for maybe getting a cable and a laptop. Maybe I'm should clarify something. I'm hoping to find some kind of diagnostic tool that'll let me see what each cylinder is doing as it's doing it. If the #8 plug is bad or the coil is breaking down, I wanna know so I can get the right part without having to end up replacing all kinds of stuff before I find out by proce$$ of elimination. That's what I'm hoping to find. I'm a pretty impatient individual and have my issues with obsessiveness. Right now I don't believe I'm having issues with a vacuum leak as I've got better control of the minimum idle setting. That was being screwed up by the non-GM pcv valve along with min. idle setting causing a stalling condition. (Read above posts) Today I went and bought a tachometer and hooked it up. It shows my dash tach is reading somewhere around 100+ RPM high under 1000 RPM. I reset the minimum idle (again) and and it seems to be better.
BUT,,,,,,,, I think I'm detecting a stumble in the engine from what "SEEMS" like an intermitant miss. That's why I'd like to get some kind of diagnostic piece to show instant info as to what each cylinder is doing. I'm pretty sure you guys know a lot more than I do regarding all the ins-n-outs with the OBD1 stuff, so I'm glad to hear your suggestions. |
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Posted on: 2013/5/13 3:42
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| Matatk | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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Bob, you won't find anything to tell you what each cylinder is doing as it is doing it. You will have to do visual inspections on most parts like plug wires, etc. There are diagnostic tools like oscilloscopes to check wave patterns and whatnot in electrical currents, but that's not a scanner. Our cars don't have the capability like the newer OBDII cars. A laptop with scanning software will tell you what the computer is seeing, though. 02 voltage, fuel trims, tps, iac count, etc. That's about the closest you will get.
As far as the rpms, do you have a cam? I have to set my base idle about 100-150 rpm higher with a big cam to get it to idle properly. The 450 rpm base procedure is for a stock car. |
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Posted on: 2013/5/13 11:40
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| CorvetteBob | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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What you're saying about the diagnostic equipment is a fact I thought might eventually come out. I guess I was just hoping there'd be something I didn't know about, as so often happens.
As far as a laptop goes, that would probably help, but when it comes right down to it, I'm not sure I'd understand what I'd be looking at if I had that kind of setup. As far as idle quality and RPM at idle, my car is currently stock, but I have some mods I wanna do and I want to know it's right before I change it all over. I've got a nice set of AFR 195's I got thru Jim Barth, and a NIB GM Hotcam, 1.6 Comp rockers,and some 30lb injectors. I'm trying to save up to get the rest of my gaskets, some $$ for a bit-o-milling on the heads for compression, and $$ for a local dyno-tuner I found. And to top it off, all this is in a race to see what happens as I'm also staring at a left knee replacement this year. As a matter of fact, I have to see the Dr. about ten hours from right now. Wish me luck. |
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Posted on: 2013/5/14 5:02
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| Matatk | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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Good luck with the knee.
Once you get a tune, the tuner can adjust it so the air idle step not be as steep when you take your foot off the gas, that might help with the stumbling idle. |
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Posted on: 2013/5/14 11:38
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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 I have a friend doing a superram swap and he has similar issues. I'm almost out of ideas, so I'm curious what you find. Next on his we're going to isolate the evap and pcv systems and see if that gets it to idle properly.</p> |
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Posted on: 2013/6/5 15:52
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| CorvetteBob | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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CC, you didn't mention the year of your friends car, but mine's an "88. My answer notes the possible difference that are present between the Stock and SuperRam intakes. The later L98 plenums idle air takes a path more similar to that of the SR. But then again, you probably already know this stuff much better than I do.
I don't know if I solved the entire problem yet, but I'm certain the PCV has helped a good bit. I've also wondered about my SR causing some of this. The only thing I can come up with is the difference between the SR and the stock plenum. Mines an '88, so the idle air goes past the IAC and into the plenum passage on the underside of the stock plenum. From there it goes thru the dedicated tube on the runners and on into the secret passage-ways in the base and come up within an inch or two before the manifold gets to the head. On the SR, the idle air comes out into the plenum directly behind the throttle body and into the main plenum. "IF", this causes a difference in the engine idle, my thoughts are that it's because the stock idle passages offer a more finite, and maybe more measured, amount of air that the engine breathes from at idle while the main plenum remains at more of a partial vacuum state. I don't have anything to back this up, but FWIW, those are some thoughts to offer. |
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Posted on: 2013/6/5 16:57
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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Yeah, its an 85, which has the stock idle air entering in the bottom of each intake tract, and he thinks it's related to the changes in idle air paths, but I disagree. It isn't any different than the later L98 in dumping directly into the plenum.
I speculate that GM only had that idle air passage from the TB directly to the base because they wanted some air to help move the cold start injector fuel into the base. And when they got rid of it there was no need. I don't know where the PCV goes on the newer cars.. is it into that extra port on the passenger side of the throttle body or still to the intake base? You are correct that the intake runners would have more vacuum than the plenum, but I doubt it's enough to have any effect. Yes I guess that would mean the IAC would have to open a little further than it's used to to get the same amount of air. The amount of air moving through the runners at idle is small, so I can't imagine much of a pressure difference within the intake tract. |
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Posted on: 2013/6/9 23:34
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| CorvetteBob | Re: Throttle Body Connections | ||
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As far as the PCV routing I'd say the best thing is to stay with the OEM layout. Matt gave us a diagram above that's an excellent illustration.
I think your assessment of the path for idle air is a spot on counterpoint to my point. However, my last point to sticking to my side on this is that the cars were tuned for the air to travel the path that each respective year uses. The computer, in my belief, expects to see a certain set of values in the vacuum readings, and that's all it wants to go by. If we change that up, w/ the SR and the relatively cavernous plenum it has, the computer still expects the vacuum signals to conform, except now it has several times the amount of plenum volume that must be, "re-vacuumed," and just that much is enough to give the whole system some fits. The rambling below are just some food for thought... This all brings up something the tech said when I spoke to him.(see post #11) He related to me that he'd seen cars come in within any of the OBD generations of computer management that had the SES light on, and some having drivability issues. He emphasized his very first check is always the air filter. He claims it's surprising how many cars he finds are having trouble and all he has to do is replace the K&N air filter w/ an AC. I found this difficult to accept, but the man seemed very sincere in this information. This made me wonder a good bit as to why this would be. The only conclusion I could come up with is the simple fact that a car is only a machine. All machines are obviously made up of components or parts. These parts ALL are manufactured to specifications that include tolerances. Tolerances can vary greatly. Since it's not practical for an automaker to apply 100% inspection to parts, I'm certain a percentage of these parts come thru that are outside of their respective tolerances. If anyone car or production run of cars contain enough of the parts in the engine's operating system, then the computer will be at the edge of it's allowable operating parameters and all it takes is something as simple as a free flow air filter to throw the engine management system into a fit and then send out the batsignal, resulting in only the SES light, or some unpleasant drivability issues. |
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Posted on: 2013/6/10 4:01
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