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| 88BlackZ51 | Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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Senior Guru
 
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Most of you know there will be a 421 in the old girl come 09'. I have updated the car with o.e. C5 Z06 rims, and the car has the Z51 (J55) brakes from the factory (13's up front).
I have a few questions for the C4 faithful. First off, Is there anyone with o.e. C5 Z06 rims that have upgraded to C5, or C6 brakes. I would like to see some pictures, and hear some feedback on the performance of the brakes. I have been talking to my buf JeffVette about upgrading to C5 or C6 brakes. He has advised me that the C5 will work, but the C6 (Z-51) will require 18" rims up front. The issue is the o.e. 18's are 10.5 wide, and I have a feeling they might be too wide, and stick out. I know on the C5's they do stick out. If am pretty sure some of you are running 18x 10.5's on all 4 corners, so if you have some pictures from some different angles, I would like to see the wider rims up front. I am toying with what to do. In the esthetics dept the C6 Z-51 brakes being 13.4" (if memory is correct) look amazing imo, but that would mean the bigger rims. Plus Jeff can paint the calipers any colour I want. Do you think the C6 Z-51 brakes will perform that much better then the C5 brakes? I have been in a C5 a few times, and the stock brakes without a question outperform my J55's with the same pads. So it's not a question of "if" I need to upgrade the J55's, It's a question of what to do. What looks good, and what performs good. I would like to keep the rims I have on the car to be honest, but if the 18's look good up front, then that is an option. Jeff has also mentioned going with an aftermarket brake which is another option but sinking $2500-$3500 on brakes isn't going to be worth it for the odd road race day. If you guys have any opinions, pictures, and actually experience from upgrading brakes I would like to hear it. I am not interesting in hearing about upgrading from the base brakes to the J55's. I have the J55's on the car now, and I want to step up the performance! Thanks! Below are a few pictures of the car. I think it looks great with the rim combo, but it might even look better with 18's on all 4 if they fit properly. http://www.corvette-guru.com/modules/ ... hp?topic_id=6581&forum=21 On a side note, I hope all you guru's have a safe and happy 2009. Please don't drink and drive! |
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Posted on: 2008/12/30 19:33
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| Aardwolf | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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I have been in a C5 a few times, and the stock brakes without a question outperform my J55's with the same pads. To much about the cars is different for that to be a valid comparison. For an odd track day you don't need to upgrade at all so put on what looks like the best bling in your opinion. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/30 19:44
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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I agree, too many differences to attribute it to that. For example, the rear brakes on the C5 actually work.
C6 Z51 brakes have zero aftermarket for rotors last I checked, and the factory ones are drilled. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/30 21:20
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| Jeffvette | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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DBA |
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Posted on: 2008/12/30 22:09
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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I had a totally stock 89, with piss poor brakes. The C6 Standard upgrade was an outrageous improvement over stock.
I don't know how much of a benefit you will get over what you have... but you can't go wrong doing the conversion in any event. Your not going to lose anything, well, except some $$. DG |
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Posted on: 2008/12/30 22:46
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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Were your stock brakes J55 or 12"?
Jeff, what is your opinion on the J55s? People switching to C5 brakes always seem to have glowing results. I believe the piston sizes are similar. Would you attribute it to just the new pads and rotor surfaces? My opinion is that the C4 brakes are sized fine but either do not have enough pedal leverage or vacuum assist. The rears also appear to be grossly underpressured. It seems like larger fronts would make the pedal feel more responsive, but screw the rear bias up even more and have little effect (or even negative) on braking distance. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/30 22:54
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| BrianCunningham | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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J55's have enough grip, the trouble is when you put performance pads in the they can't dissipate the heat and distort, same as any other slide rail caliper c5/c6 brakes included.
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Posted on: 2008/12/30 23:04
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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Posted on: 2008/12/30 23:11
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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I had the 12"... so for me it was light night and day. I can't comment on the differences from J55 to C5/C6. In any event the C6's look a hell of alot better than the J55's. I know alot of guys on here couldn't care less about the "bling" factor, but in any event, I have not run across any posts of people who have swapped their J55's for C5/C6's and are complaining about loss of performance. Meaning: If its not "much" of a performance improvement, well, at least you can take comfort in knowing they look 100X better on the car. I went for the C6 Standard Brakes, with Slotted Rotors, and a set of Hawk HPS Pads. I also did the DRM Bias spring to put a little more pressure on my stock rears. The results on my 89 were outstanding. The first time I really got on the brakes, I almost slammed my head against the windshield. My buddy has a front and back $3000 stoptech (or maybe it was Baer, I'm not 100% sure) brake setup specifically designed for his vehicle. The first time I drove his car I was very impressed with braking; after doing this conversion on my Vette, his brakes just seemed good at best. A while back we had this conversation when I decided that I wanted to do this upgrade. I think we agreed that alot of 88-89 Guys consistently complain that their brakes suck, which 87-prior don't seem to understand why we are complaining. Seeing as how you have the J55's already... again, I really don't know what this "upgrade" will do for you, if anything. Only thing I can tell you is that it will look better. On a stock Z51 with non-J55's, its like a totally different car. DG |
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Posted on: 2008/12/30 23:34
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| Jeffvette | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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I'll have to do some piston measurements. Don't feel like breaking down a couple of calipers today. The J55's were adequate back in the day for street driving. keep in mind they were also using the J55 set up in the Corvette Challenge race series. So they can work, but not for extended periods of time. The biggest issue with any brake system is maintaining it. And that means flushing your fluid yearly. I flush mine during the winter and also after each track weekend. A little overkill, but allows me to keep fresh fluid in there and also inspect everything. But the biggest difference between the C5 and the C4 system is size. The caliper is larger and has less flexing. The pad has a larger surface area, and then the rotor is also .25" thicker. All this adds up to better heat dissipation. Which helps on each stop after the first. You give a C4 clean fluid, fresh gear and good tires, the first stop will probably be the same or within a foot of a car with the everything fresh and the C5 kit. Do this test back to back from 100 5 times, and the on the 5th, the gap will be growing. Problem with the rears is you start adding pressure and adding more heat to the back you are going to have issues. The rear rotor is only .75" thick. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/30 23:36
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| Jeffvette | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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The caliper being used in the C6 base car and the Z51 are from the same casting as the C5. The C6 caliper has been fortified once again in certain areas and has a couple of other small changes. The biggest difference is the CORVETTE script on the caliper. That being said, you can use the C6 caliper in the C5 abutment bracket along with the C5 slider pins and a C5 rotor. The difference between the C5 and C6 base Vs the C6 Z51 is the spacing of the rotor from the center due to the larger rotor. You are talking 12.9x Vs 13.4 Dan's choice was to use the C6 caliper as he wanted it to look better. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/30 23:41
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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The only pictures I have are REALLY CRAPPY! Use your imagination! The after pictures were taken after 8K put on them, so they are dirty. Before [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/corvette089.jpg[/IMG] After  [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/89%20Corvette%20For%20Sale/CorvetteForSalePhotos021.jpg[/IMG] Oh look,... Its jeffs hand [IMG]http://s142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/th_MelinaBrake.jpg[/IMG] |
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Posted on: 2008/12/30 23:44
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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And when was the last time you waxed your car? Just wondering DG |
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Posted on: 2008/12/30 23:52
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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I just lost all my credibility... DG |
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Posted on: 2008/12/30 23:57
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| Jeffvette | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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Had it done last August. I don't have time to do that crap. :tongue: |
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Posted on: 2008/12/30 23:57
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| Jeffvette | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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LOL, the performance choice was already made on the upgrade, but you wanted the larger script so you could let everybody know what you were driving :D |
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Posted on: 2008/12/30 23:59
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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Exactly  Check your pm |
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Posted on: 2008/12/31 0:02
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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Jeff, you make good points, but I think 9 of 10 people complaining about the 88+ brakes aren't driving hard enough to fade them.
Also something most don't realize about the rears is during light braking they get equal line pressure to the fronts. Rear pressure doesn't drop till you really hammer on the pedal. So this means if you ease into your brakes on the roadcourse, you'll put more heat into the rears, compared to someone that just uses them briefly and hard. This is the only reason it makes sense to me why the rear rotors are so oversized on street cars and sometimes the same size as fronts... because the car only sees light braking, plus they get more even pad wear and less chance of rear fade. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/31 9:11
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| kelley | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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so the rotor is thicker, do you need to put longer bolts in to hold the wheel on?
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Posted on: 2008/12/31 12:59
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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No. The braking surface is thicker, but the hat portion where it mounts to the hub is the same.
These are typically about 0.300" thick. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/31 18:51
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| kelley | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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the reason i asked ,my studs do not go all the way tru the nuts got 2 treads i can see. i`ll try to get some shots of it tommorrow, dosen`t seem rite,
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Posted on: 2008/12/31 23:31
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| Jeffvette | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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Kelley, you definitely do have a problem. If you would remove the brake rotor and measure the length of the studs.
Are you using a spacer as well? |
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Posted on: 2008/12/31 23:42
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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The threads on the factory studs should extend out about 1-1/8" past the rotor hat.
What wheels are on the car? |
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Posted on: 2009/1/1 2:47
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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| kelley | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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no spacer and c5 17" wheel, photo,-
Attach file:  !!!!!brake.jpg (41.07 KB) !!!wheel4.jpg (71.71 KB) !!!wheel 3.jpg (71.86 KB) |
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Posted on: 2009/1/1 13:39
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-te ... -c5-brake-conversion.html post #14
The above is the look I am after, and I am sure it won't stop any worse then my current setup. Question is what colour to paint my calipers, I am thinking a grey/silver, and how much will I get for my J55 setup? |
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Posted on: 2009/1/1 15:10
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| kelley | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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sorry didn`t mean to hijack your question,, it does stop a lot better and you can paint them any color, i used hi-temp engine paint ,and price is not that bad,i used used calipers,all else new,
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Posted on: 2009/1/1 18:03
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| Aardwolf | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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It looks like enough wheel stud goes through the lug nuts in your picture. At two threads sticking out your OK. Or maybe I'm not reading your post correctly. Two threads of the wheel stud sticking out past the threaded part of the lug nut, is enough.
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Posted on: 2009/1/1 18:33
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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kelley, only the front 1/2" of the lugnut is threaded inside.
I think you've got full engagement. If you look closely inside the lugnut, and then thread it into the car the same amount with the wheel off, it'll be clear that it's fully enganged. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/1 18:51
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| kelley | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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ok, i got nervous,i picked up a vibration and took the caps off , i retightned them all and they seem to keep getting loose,what torque should i tighten them to?
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Posted on: 2009/1/1 19:14
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| Jeffvette | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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100 ft lbs. The depth of the stud into the nut looks good. You are fine there. I thought you meant the stud was only entering the nut a minimal amount. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/1 19:17
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| Aardwolf | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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The plastic caps just hard finger tight. They would not be making a vibration. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/1 19:26
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| kelley | Re: Upgrading brakes (C5/C6 Z51). A few questions. | ||
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thanks,
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Posted on: 2009/1/1 19:26
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