|
Browsing this Thread:
2 Anonymous Users
| |
|
|
Register To Post |
| CorvetteBob | So how come? | ||
|
Elite Guru
 
|
How come all the companies that make cylinder heads can't come up with a 180cc intake head that has 58cc combustion chambers? They're the ones making them, why can't they make a 58cc head? I know for as an,"as cast" head this would mean a new set of casting patterns, but if they're gonna sell a set that's hogged out by cnc'ing them, why not start out with around a 55cc chamber as cast, and mill it to cnc specs. Then the financially challenged dopes like me might feel better about buying a set of heads if I know I can bolt the "as cast" heads on and maybe even get a raise in compression. I was looking at AFR's website and their specs on the 180's referred to the L98 heads in several spots. That tells me they know L98 guys are looking to buy these. So why not sell something that can be bolted on without having to mill the crap out of the heads AND the intake to get things to line up? Does this not make sense? This has been probably the biggest stumbling block to me actually buying a set of heads even more than cost. Why do I want to spend over $1500 just to start milling on them AND my intake to "make" them work?
I'm done bitching now. You can go back to your lives. And by the way Andy, I'm sorry, but I'm still not getting Email notifications from the Guru. |
||
Posted on: 2012/2/18 4:38
|
|||
|
_________________
Beauty, it’s in the eye of the beer holder |
|||
 Transfer
|
 
|
||
| marv02 | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Senior Guru
 
|
It looks like to me if you want 100% bolt on you going o have to buy anouther brand heads then.
|
||
Posted on: 2012/2/18 5:10
|
|||
|
_________________
383 4 bolt main (10.5 to 1) Balanced, Flat top , pistons LT-4 Hotcam, C C ultra pro magnum steel 1.6 RRA, Trick Flow Heads Super 23 (195 runners) 62cc , SPL runners, Hi Flow intake base, 24# FIC Bosch 3 Injectors, Chipped, Melrose full headers, 3 way Main |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| tjpreul | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Elite Guru
|
A 58cc is on the small side for a L98. With AFR they do cast them on the small side and then mill them to what you want. For my LT1 it is a 55cc head milled to 58cc. If you buy them from a wholeseller they don't give you this option from AFR. This increases the wholesellers profit.
|
||
Posted on: 2012/2/18 5:46
|
|||
|
_________________
Vegas wasn't built on winners. '92 auto, MSD, Banski, Taylor wires, SS lines, C5 rims, 3.07 gears, white gauges, seats from a '96. Motor: Forged rotating assy, Probe pistons, CC valvetrain, AFR heads, Procharger P1SC |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| Matatk | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Webmaster
 
|
I agree with you...I like bolt on stuff with no modifications necessary. I ended up going with edelbrocks because I got a good deal on them used.
|
||
Posted on: 2012/2/18 12:33
|
|||
|
_________________
2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| PeteK | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Moderator
 
|
Because a 58cc head, on a 4 inch bore is counterproductive for making power.
The smaller the chamber, the more you shroud the valves. The only reason GM did it was because it was a cheap fix. Typically, bigger chamber = more power potential. Sometimes, compression is less important than you may think. |
||
Posted on: 2012/2/18 12:44
|
|||
|
_________________
"It was really on a pass until it came apart." "Yeah. They always are." |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CorvetteBob | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Elite Guru
|
Quote:
Which brand? They all seem to avoid anything under 62cc. As far as the importance of compression, it's already low enough, why make it worse? If I could, I'd use a larger chamber, I would. |
||
Posted on: 2012/2/18 16:22
|
|||
|
_________________
Beauty, it’s in the eye of the beer holder |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| rklessdriver | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Senior Guru
 
|
AFR offers chambers down to 55cc.
Dart and RHS both offer chambers down to 49cc. These heads are a special order and are desgined for limited oval track class cars that have to run flat top pistons. What kind of pistons do you have now and what kind of compession ratio are you shooting for? Depending on the pistons, 64cc chamber with the right head gasket could give you plenty. Will |
||
Posted on: 2012/2/18 18:36
|
|||
|
_________________
1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station. |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CorvetteBob | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Elite Guru
|
Quote:
I currently have the stock '88 L98 pistons. Admittedly, I'm not an authority on engine building, but with alum heads I'm not aware of being able to go below about .026-.029 (compressed) on head gaskets. Unless you guys can offer some ideas, I'm not too certain on how to approach this. It wouldn't bother me too much on a carbed engine to mill the heads. W/ a carbed intake when you mill the heads, you mill the intake. Those intakes can often be replaced for under $100 off CL or fleabay. But the Accel or other aftermarket TPI bases are pretty costly to just start milling on. |
||
Posted on: 2012/2/18 20:39
|
|||
|
_________________
Beauty, it’s in the eye of the beer holder |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| marv02 | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
I would run 62 cc heads you wont lose that much compression but the better flowing heads will make it for and the gains would be worth it.
Good cam let the motor breath you be much happier with it. If you realy want to max things our redo the bottom end to macth what you want the motor to put out. If you're ever planing to make it a 383 or larger out of it go with the 195 heads. If you go with the 195"s and you want more low end put a higher stall convetor or If a manual rev higher before you side step the clutch.  |
||
Posted on: 2012/2/18 21:00
|
|||
|
_________________
383 4 bolt main (10.5 to 1) Balanced, Flat top , pistons LT-4 Hotcam, C C ultra pro magnum steel 1.6 RRA, Trick Flow Heads Super 23 (195 runners) 62cc , SPL runners, Hi Flow intake base, 24# FIC Bosch 3 Injectors, Chipped, Melrose full headers, 3 way Main |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| marv02 | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
Whe I built my last motor before the one I have now it was a 355 mild cam ect but the place who rebuilt my 700r4 and end up getting screwed from them put the wrong stall convertor the car never would come out hole hard at all felt very lazy, I asked them for a 2200 Stall convertor I think they put in a 1600 Stall the motor was a dog.
After getting the car up on the HWY and getting the rev's up the car woke up this was with 195 Trick flow heads. The motor I have now 383 LT4 hotcam same 195 heads and 2500 Stall convertor the convertor lets come out the Hole hard. I think If I had the higher stall convertor with the 355 mototr I would been lot happier with the 355. |
||
Posted on: 2012/2/18 21:06
|
|||
|
_________________
383 4 bolt main (10.5 to 1) Balanced, Flat top , pistons LT-4 Hotcam, C C ultra pro magnum steel 1.6 RRA, Trick Flow Heads Super 23 (195 runners) 62cc , SPL runners, Hi Flow intake base, 24# FIC Bosch 3 Injectors, Chipped, Melrose full headers, 3 way Main |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CorvetteBob | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Elite Guru
|
I'm looking at these, but again, they have the 62cc chambers. I looked on the ProComp site and their 59cc heads are 205cc intake runners.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/110698579305? ... X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123&vxp=mtr |
||
Posted on: 2012/2/18 21:08
|
|||
|
_________________
Beauty, it’s in the eye of the beer holder |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| marv02 | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
If I was going to buy a new set of heads I would use these.
http://www.profilerperformance.com/ra ... linderheads/sbc-23-degree These heads flow 308 for the moeny it are a good deal. I running trick flows now I didn't know about the other heads when I pruchased the Trick Flows http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-162109/ http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TFS-30400002/ http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-162108/ http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TFS-30400003/ |
||
Posted on: 2012/2/18 21:13
|
|||
|
_________________
383 4 bolt main (10.5 to 1) Balanced, Flat top , pistons LT-4 Hotcam, C C ultra pro magnum steel 1.6 RRA, Trick Flow Heads Super 23 (195 runners) 62cc , SPL runners, Hi Flow intake base, 24# FIC Bosch 3 Injectors, Chipped, Melrose full headers, 3 way Main |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| marv02 | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
I been told stay away from Procomp Heads but each his or her own.
Quote:
|
||
Posted on: 2012/2/18 21:14
|
|||
|
_________________
383 4 bolt main (10.5 to 1) Balanced, Flat top , pistons LT-4 Hotcam, C C ultra pro magnum steel 1.6 RRA, Trick Flow Heads Super 23 (195 runners) 62cc , SPL runners, Hi Flow intake base, 24# FIC Bosch 3 Injectors, Chipped, Melrose full headers, 3 way Main |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CorvetteBob | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Elite Guru
|
I've never heard of the Profiler heads, but I'll take a look at them. After all, they're only about a half hour from the house. I was looking at their site. If they flow 308, I'll bet it's not in the 185's. They don't have any flow charts that I could see, but it'd be interesting to know how they got 308 out of any of their heads. They only go up to 210cc intake.
|
||
Posted on: 2012/2/19 1:25
|
|||
|
_________________
Beauty, it’s in the eye of the beer holder |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| marv02 | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
I was told lot boat racers use them.
|
||
Posted on: 2012/2/19 3:25
|
|||
|
_________________
383 4 bolt main (10.5 to 1) Balanced, Flat top , pistons LT-4 Hotcam, C C ultra pro magnum steel 1.6 RRA, Trick Flow Heads Super 23 (195 runners) 62cc , SPL runners, Hi Flow intake base, 24# FIC Bosch 3 Injectors, Chipped, Melrose full headers, 3 way Main |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| rklessdriver | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
The Pro Comp heads are a CHINA made POS. Do not waste your $$$ on them.
The 89 (and earlier) L98's have a 12cc dish piston and 9.5 SCR. The pistons should be about .020 in the hole if the block is undecked.... Using a 64cc head and the .026 Victor 5746 head gasket you'll have 9.346 SCR. With the .015 Fel Pro 1094 head gasket you'll have 9.596SCR... When (flat) milling SBC 23* cyl heads it takes .007 per 1cc.... So you'd have to mill a 64cc head .035 to get them to 59cc. That's not really enough to totally screw up your intake alignment. You might need to work on the bolt holes a little and you might not.... At 59cc you'd have 10.14SCR with the Fel Pro and 9.8SCR with the Victor. Will |
||
Posted on: 2012/2/19 5:10
|
|||
|
_________________
1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station. |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| rklessdriver | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
On the heads. Don't worry about cutting them down. Should cost about $75 per head....
You have a ton of options. Some of them are as cheap or cheaper than that CHINA made junk. DART has the new SHP alum head out and they offer a 180cc intake runner. About $930 a set with dual springs for a hyd roller. BRODIX has the IK 180 for about $1200. Edelbrock has the E Street for $900 but your gonna have to change the springs. Of course the AFR 180/195 for $1500 The Profiler 180 - but I don't know if anyone has any availiable. Will |
||
Posted on: 2012/2/19 5:31
|
|||
|
_________________
1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station. |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CorvetteBob | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Elite Guru
|
Quote:
Wow! Thanks for the research Will! That makes me feel a whole lot better! Also, I was working with the mistaken thought that the rated CR was 9.0 on the L98's. Also, I didn't realise an aluminum head would stay properly sealed with an .015" gasket. Or will it? Would it be better insurance to use the Victor Reinz .026"? As far as heads go,I know the AFR reign supreme, but I can't afford them. Are the Patriot 190 cnc's any good? https://www.patriot-performance.com/xc ... roductid=73&cat=40&page=1 |
||
Posted on: 2012/2/19 17:49
|
|||
|
_________________
Beauty, it’s in the eye of the beer holder |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| marv02 | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
I heard good on Patriot.
I think Pete K on anouther Corvette fourm built a motor with them but I think he upgraded the valve springs the springs that came with thew head would not handle the Lift of the cam they used. On my TF heads they worked good on the 355 when I built the 383 I also when to a higher lift cam And I had to put better springs on mine to handle the cam. Just because the heads can flow 9000 CFM's do you realy need a head that flows that much CFM's. Or save some cash get the cheeper heads that flow what you realy need thenn for. My heads say they flow 256 with .600 lift I sure more CFM's would be nice but again how offen are you gong to reving the motor that high to need them to flow that much. And on a stock 350 I dont think you be reving it to the moon bigger the cubes you will need more CFM for the same RPM to get it to work. Unless you build a Monster forged 350 that youre planning to be a screamer if you're going to dump that much cash in to it might as well build a stroker not for that much more and pick up some easy HP and Tq at the same time. |
||
Posted on: 2012/2/19 19:42
|
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| rklessdriver | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
The Fel Pro 1094 is rubber coated and it will seal fine with Alum heads. It also will not brinnel on the fire ring.
The Patriot heads are the same overseas casting as the Pro Comp, but Patriot does the machine work, and uses their hardware (springs, retainers, locks and valves) which make them better. The valve springs are for flat tappet cam thou so you'll have change them. It's not a bad head for the $$$, but take in to consideration cost to change the springs when comparing it against the others. Will |
||
Posted on: 2012/2/19 19:44
|
|||
|
_________________
1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station. |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CorvetteBob | Re: So how come? | ||
|
Elite Guru
|
Marv and Will, between the two of you guys, you've been a big help on this. Marv, I couldn't have said it better myself, why have heads that flow 300cfm if you're not able or going to use it all that often?
As for the valve springs, I was thinking of buying the heads bare, with valves only if possible, and then buying the proper quality springs/retainers/keepers to fit as I build the heads. I know this may or may not be the usual way to do things, but I'll be able to afford heads alot sooner if they're bare, then buy the rest of the components as $$ comes in. On head gaskets, I guess the FelPro 1094 or Victor Reinz 5746 is the way to go, unless the heads mfgr has a real objection to them. That reminds me, I'm also gonna have to get a good set of head bolts/washers, roller rockers, and, depending how things go together, appropriate length pushrods, and of course, a chip from PCMforless. I've also been wondering if a better set of injectors might not be a good idea. I guess what I've been saying all these years still holds true for automotive performance projects. "When trying to figure a realistic cost of a project, add the cost of parts together and then figure sales tax. After itemizing your list, double the final figure, and there you have a realistic starting point of the cost of an automotive performance project." |
||
Posted on: 2012/2/20 6:32
|
|||
|
_________________
Beauty, it’s in the eye of the beer holder |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
You can view topic.
You cannot start a new topic.
You cannot reply to posts.
You cannot edit your posts.
You cannot delete your posts.
You cannot add new polls.
You cannot vote in polls.
You cannot attach files to posts.
You cannot post without approval.
|
|