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| jsup | Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Elite Guru
 
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The headers are EM ceramic coated.
The fuel lines that run down the passenger side of the car hit the headers. I tried to loosen th strap that holds them and move it around, but that didn't work. I can use a wire tie which I would loop around the frame member and pull it tight. But that seems like such a redneck approach. I figure I can go to HD and get one of those big, flat black straps used for AC vents for example. That would look better. Any suggestions? I don't even know if it's a problem, the lines have spring around them are just barely touching. In fact, one is touching and one is not. What do you think? Thanks..... |
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 23:53
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| Notorious | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Elite Guru
 
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Can you mount some tubing clamps or cushion clamps to hold the lines back? I'd also recommend some reflective heat wrap around the fuel lines if they're that close. Can't be too careful on such a critical detail.
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 0:08
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Elite Guru
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Quote:
Can you mount some tubing clamps or cushion clamps to hold the lines back? I'd also recommend some reflective heat wrap around the fuel lines if they're that close. Can't be too careful on such a critical detail. I have to drill into the frame member to secure it, which I don't know if I can get a drill in there. That is my ultimate solution. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 0:21
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| Notorious | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Quote:
Quote: A good air ratchet, (ideally) a magnetic socket and a tech screw or other self-tapping hardware.  |
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 0:27
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| CFI-EFI | Re: Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Senior Guru
 
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Quote:
I don't even know if it's a problem, the lines have spring around them are just barely touching. In fact, one is touching and one is not. RACE ON!!! |
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 0:48
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Elite Guru
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Quote:
Quote: Here's my idea......I get one of those 1 gang boxes used for BX cable....there's a part inside the box used to clamp down on the cable. BX is pretty dam close to the fuel line size so it should be close. Then I get my right angle drill, start a hole, and use a self tapping screw to hold it down. I'll paint it black with high heat paint that I have laying around..... This way it will look right and match . What do you think? |
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 0:54
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| jsup | Re: Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Elite Guru
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Quote:
Quote: I can get two inch clearance, no problem I'm just trying to figure out the most professional looking way to do it. Wire ties will look like hell..... |
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 0:56
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| CFI-EFI | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Senior Guru
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A couple of ordinary Adel clamps ought to work like a charm.
RACE ON!!! |
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 1:08
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Elite Guru
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So I ran down to the garage and here's what I found. No way in hell I'm getting 2" of clearance. it's right where cyl 2 primary comes across the frame, the fuel line is right there, and it does not want to move....
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 1:35
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| pianoguy | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Probably talking out of my a$$, but is there any way to loosen the motor mounts and scoot the engine over a tad (assuming there are no clearance issues on the other side)?
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 1:43
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Quote:
Probably talking out of my a$$, but is there any way to loosen the motor mounts and scoot the engine over a tad (assuming there are no clearance issues on the other side)? I wish it were that easy. Ya know, they barely touch.. One is vertical and one is horizontal and they "hit" at one small point. Picture this three dimensionally, it's a large pipe horzontal, and the little pipe vertical and they only meet in the one small spot where they cross. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 1:46
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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That bracket in the pic is the AC bracket that goes to the exhaust stud, for a point of reference.
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 1:51
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| byebyeL98 | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Guru Newb
 
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The fuel lines on my '87 are about 1/4" away from the primary header tube and I've had no issues, as it is only for a very brief period during flow. From the pictures, it looks like yours might be a tad closer, but not by much. As long as they are not touching, I think you'll be ok, though a heat shield isn't a bad idea at all.
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 2:07
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_________________
´87 coupe, 383, ZF 6 Speed, 4.10s |
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| CFI-EFI | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Senior Guru
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You may have to completely reroute the fuel line in that area. Down the frame further rearward, further forward, or maybe on the other side of the frame rail. Like the thread engagement of the poly lock nuts on your rocker studs, YOU are the one that has to be pleased, in the end.
RACE ON!!! |
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 2:08
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Elite Guru
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Thanks, CFI.
What's your take on the pics? Does it look like it will work? |
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 2:14
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Elite Guru
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Quote:
The fuel lines on my '87 are about 1/4" away from the primary header tube and I've had no issues, as it is only for a very brief period during flow. From the pictures, it looks like yours might be a tad closer, but not by much. As long as they are not touching, I think you'll be ok, though a heat shield isn't a bad idea at all. The fuel line barely nicks the header in one little spot. Putting on the Super Ram tomorrow, then, I'm done. Well, all but the rockers. Went around today and cleaned up "odds and ends". It's the SR Tomorrow, then TURN THE KEY!!! Crossin' my fingers. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 2:18
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| CFI-EFI | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Senior Guru
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Quote:
Thanks, CFI. I don't like it, but as I said]Like the thread engagement of the poly lock nuts on your rocker studs, YOU are the one that has to be pleased, in the end.[/quote] RACE ON!!! |
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 2:24
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Elite Guru
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There's two competing sides of my brain. One says "Fk it" leave it that way.
The other is saying, WTF, FIX IT!!! Right now I just want to get the car started. The only difference between doing it now, and doing it later is draining the antifreeze, which isn't the end of the world. Messy, yes. I hate doing it. But I just want to get the car running. I'll have to look at replacing the lines from down at the filter up to the intake. Let me see what that will take. I can pull it 1/2 inch away with a nice sized zip tie for now. After I get the intake on tomorrow I'll make the decision. I'll have to take the AC compressor and bracket off again. What does it take to re run those fuel lines and what should I use? If I knew what it took, I'd be more likely to do it. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 2:33
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| cuisinartvette | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Id follow the line back to the next fitting and start over, thats just too close IMO. Adel clamps would be ideal but dyoubt you could use them til you move the line. When you give the car gas it will torque over and not onloy hit the line but possibly cause damage.
Cant take too many precautions when it comes to fuel line. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 3:00
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Quote:
Id follow the line back to the next fitting and start over, thats just too close IMO. Adel clamps would be ideal but dyoubt you could use them til you move the line. When you give the car gas it will torque over and not onloy hit the line but possibly cause damage. I agree. Here's how it works...the line comes off the fuel filter, it's hard line that runs the way you see it. Then there's a rubber section, then it goes straight up to the fuel rails as solid rails. There is a local shop that makes up hydraulic lines, I'll check with them see what they can do. Can anyone tell me are the connections on the fuel filter and the rail standard off the shelf connections? |
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 3:06
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| Slalom4me | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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The fuel line barely nicks the header in one little spot. So the fuel line barely touches, hmm? Watch the following videos then decide which side of the brain to listen to. Engine dyno Texas 01 - Texas 02 - Texas Afterward In case you are wondering what the colour in the first video represents, take a look at the chart here . |
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Posted on: 2008/1/27 0:29
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| cuisinartvette | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Elite Guru
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I dont remember the fuel line size...Goodrich makes some good high pressure hose.
THe pushlok hose/fittings are nice |
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Posted on: 2008/1/27 1:04
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| CFI-EFI | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Senior Guru
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I'd stick with steel lines like the factory used, probably without the "springs", due to availability. The hose is just there to provide a flexible link, to keep a steel lines from work hardening and breaking from the constant movement in the chassis.
RACE ON!!! |
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Posted on: 2008/1/27 1:27
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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I am going to pull them out and take them to a place that makes high pressure hoses locally. I'm going to have them fab something and I can probably use the old fittings so I know it will fit.
I'll know more next week. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/27 2:06
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| Slalom4me | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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I am going to pull them out and take them to a place that makes high pressure hoses locally. I'm going to have them fab something and I can probably use the old fittings so I know it will fit. line routing.   For a '90, both the supply and return fittings are 16mm x 1.5. (At some point on earlier cars, one line is 14mm x 1.5 while the other is 16mm x 1.5) Earl's offers both male and female fittings that could be useful for a project to re-route the fuel lines from the filter forward.  .  991955ERL - Adapter, AN Flare to Metric, -6 AN Male to 16mm x 1.5 Male $6.25 9894DBJERL - Adapter, AN Flare to Metric, -6 AN Male to 16mm x 1.5 Female $10.39 I know the fittings at the end of the hard lines where these join the fuel rail are male, I suspect, but am not certain that the fittings at the opposite end of the hard lines (at the fuel filter union) are also male - they look like male in the drawing above. Aeroquip AQP FC350 has a braided poly cover and an inner wire reinforcement. It has a good bend radius, light weight and it is suitable for fuel. Or there is AQP hose with SS braided cover. While you are looking at the fuel lines, inspect the OEM flex portion at the front between the engine and the frame. Your's is 17 years old now and may very likely be in need of attention. . |
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Posted on: 2008/1/27 20:46
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| dan0617 | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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I posted in your other thread about the sleeves and -6an nuts. If you are coming from the fuel filter or some other place that you have existing factory fittings then by all means buy the correct adapter to go from the factory fitting to a -6an fitting to hook to your steel braided line or whatever and call it a day. I believe the factory fittings are called saginaw fittings, but don't quote me on that. If you are coming from a bare 3/8" line then you can do what I did and use the sleeves and -6 nuts and flare the end of the steel line. My factory lines were fine to the front and have about 1" or more clearance to my Hooker headers so I left them alone. My lines were damaged (kinked some) at the top before they went into the stock fuel rail so I cut the lines off where they were good (about 2" before the fuel rail fitting), which is why I had no stock fittings to hook into.
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Posted on: 2008/1/27 21:11
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ยด89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Elite Guru
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Salalom4me, thanks. It looks exactly like that diagram you posted. I am taking the lines off up to where the #34 is pointing on the diagram.
The fittings were really tight, I had to use a torch to loosen them up (I'm kidding) I thought that without pressure in the system, gas would not pour out. Well, stupid me. I got a face full of gas and had to tighten it while it was running out. Can you, or anyone, tell me if the entire tank will drain if I take these fitting apart? I tightened them back up till I read through the FSM to figure it out. Is this the gas that is in the line? Or the gas that is in the tank? Thanks. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/27 21:26
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| Slalom4me | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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I thought that without pressure in the system, gas would not pour out. It is both. Consider how a siphon works - after you swallow two or three mouthfuls to get it started, a siphon requires no further assistance to maintain the flow up out of a tank as long as the outlet is lower than the fuel level in the tank. Some possible solutions: - Drain the tank with a siphon - Elevate the front of the vehicle relative to the rear - Open the line at the top of the tank so that a partial vacuum can not be created. . |
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Posted on: 2008/1/27 21:38
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Quote:
Quote: So how TF do I get these two lines off without draining the tank? |
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Posted on: 2008/1/27 21:46
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| dan0617 | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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1. Take your gas cap off. Pressure can re-build even if it has been released previously with the cap on due to the expansion of fuel with temperature changes.
2. Raise the front of the car as high as possible. 3. If 1 and 2 don't work then unhook the fuel lines where they go into the sending unit, under the fuel tank door. You can do this from above without getting under the car in the back. If you have ever changed your fuel pump you know what I'm talking about. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/27 22:04
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ยด89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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The car is already 4 tires off the ground. Not the easiest solution.
How about I pick up some rubber plugs and just plug the SOB for a couple days. Thoughts on that? Anyone? |
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Posted on: 2008/1/27 22:08
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| Slalom4me | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Draining the tank isn't so bad with a siphon through the fuel neck feeding
into jerry cans. But if you don't find the earlier three suggestions palatable, then a fourth may be to open the lines where they meet the fuel rail. Then with the gas cap removed, apply gentle air pressure to the lines to encourage any fuel to flow to the tank. Once the lines are clear, my vote is that it will not be possible for fuel to siphon back into the lines without assistance from the pump to lift fuel up the initial length of in-tank line. Use suitable precautions when fuel leaks may occur - have known good fire extinguishers on hand and have a competent buddy standing watch. Be sure there is a clear path outside in case it becomes necessary to remove the vehicle from the building. Good luck. . |
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Posted on: 2008/1/27 22:08
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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I have a few gas cans. I'm going to let the lines drain into the gas cans until it stops.
I'll put that gas into my DD. Hell, it is super. I really should pick up a fire extinguisher. Thanks. I just have to get a friend over here to help me out. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/27 22:12
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| dan0617 | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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I wouldn't trust the plug when I wasn't there to watch it. Just take an extra 10 minutes and pull the lines off the top of the sending unit. 1 clamp on each line and it pulls right off.
Be patient with the job. Fuel lines and brake lines are a son of a bitch. It always takes 4 times longer than it should. It's just the nature of the beast. Take lots of beer time outs. If you don't drink, it is time to start. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/27 22:12
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ยด89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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See above. I'll just let it run out of the lines until it stops.
Hell, it's only what? A 15 gallon tank? I think it was 1/2 full so I'm looking at 7 gallons maybe 10 at worst? With 2 gallon tanks it's a six tank swap at best. I'll fill one, hand it to a friend, he'll put the gas into my DD while I fill the next one. The whole process should only take 1/2 hour tops until the tank is dry. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/27 22:15
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| CFI-EFI | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Quote:
Hell, it's only what? A 15 gallon tank?  There is no point trying to help with easier, safer, ways. His mind is made up.RACE ON!!! |
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Posted on: 2008/1/28 0:40
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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CFI, seriously, if I just let the tank drain into gas cans, what's wrong with that?
If I'm going to kill myself I'd rather know now so I can say my goodbyes. I have 4X2.5 gallon cans, that's 10 gallons. So if I disconnect the lines by the filter, let the gas drain into these containers until empty, what's the problem? |
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Posted on: 2008/1/28 2:06
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| MK 82 | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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CFI, seriously, if I just let the tank drain into gas cans, what's wrong with that? Problems your way. 1. Messy and more of a fire hazard. Problems CFI's way. 1 Must remove fuel lid and rubber cover above sending unit 2. Must remove supply soft line at top of tank to break syphon. Pros don't have to drain tank |
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Posted on: 2008/1/28 3:54
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96 CE Roadster LT4 |
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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OK. I finally got five consecutive minutes to sit down with the FSM.
I now understand what Dan and CFI are talking about. Got it. Will do tomorrow. The FSM doesn't tell you these things, but the diagrams make it clear. Thanks guys. I'll take the easy way out. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/28 4:11
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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My first EFI build, I'm learning as I am going.....the best I can do is ask the stupid questions, try to understand the answers, take my time, do things slowly and right.
I get CFI's frustration with my response, and stupid questions...and no CFI I don't "have my mind made up". If I did, I wouldn't ask. The last motor I did was probably 15 years ago, a 1974 L48. Simple by comparison. At that time there weren't a lot of choices, you picked up whatever Edlebrock had to offer (kinda). The biggest decision was single or dual plane manifold. I didn't get to do everything I wanted to that car becuase money was tight. Ran great though for the next 18 months till I sold it. I want to do this one, the way I couldn't do the last one. The way I want it. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/28 4:24
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| Slalom4me | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Since jsup is going to be removing the fuel lines from the fuel rail anyway,
is there some reason why he can't blow back through the lines toward the tank? Push the residual fuel in the lines back into the tank. Once there is nothing forward of the filler neck, the siphon/vacuum action can not occcur. Gentle pressure. Don't over do it and wind up disconnecting the attenuator and/or pump from the fuel line. The fuel should flow backwards through the pump - unless someone knows otherwise. If you elect to proceed with disconnecting the lines at the filler neck, be aware that the lines between the tank and the filter will still contain whatever fuel was there before - be prepared to catch several ounces when the filter fittings are loosened. . |
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Posted on: 2008/1/28 4:59
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Quote:
Since jsup is going to be removing the fuel lines from the fuel rail anyway, What is keeping me from doing it is that my compressor just crapped out. I have the compressor in the shed out back with lines coming into my house, about 50 feet away. I think the drain plug blew out, but haven't gotten back to the shed to see what is going on. It's cold out there. I have a catch all bin that I have been using to catch antifreeze, and other "stuff". It's pretty big, I'll be ready. I'm going to try this later today. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/28 13:19
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| MK 82 | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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There is also a check valve integral to the pump that would prevent backflushing the line.
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Posted on: 2008/1/28 14:59
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96 CE Roadster LT4 |
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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OK, I am on my way.
Early this morning I took off the plate and the rubber insert by the gas cap. I noticed that there were HOSE CLAMPS holding the hoses onto the tank. Did GM ever use hose clamps? Or did someone else do this over the life of the car? Just wonderin. Anyway,when I took one hose off, the gas can be heard running down. Same thing with the second hose. Tonight after work I'll disconnect the filter, get a new filter, take the lines to a shop and have them custom made. I figure I'll keep the stock lines from the throttle body to the rubber. I will have the rubber replaced, and the new lines fabbed from the rubber out. I have to mock it up with a wire hanger so I have something to bring and explain to the guy making up the lines. This isn't rocked science, an little off here or there isn't the end of the world. Thanks guys, you saved me a lot of headache. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/28 16:53
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| CFI-EFI | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Quote:
I get CFI's frustration with my response, and stupid have restrained myself over commenting on the scope and quantity of the questions you HAVE asked through this project. My comment came after several suggestions that would be easier, faster, and safer, and you kept repeating that you were going to drain the tank. The safest way to handle gasoline, is if you can figure out a way not to. It certainly appeared, that after repeated better solutions, your mind was made up to drain the tank. Hence, my comment. As much as it takes common sense to use the FSM, the FSM doesn't contain a lot of common sense solutions. Certain thinking is left to the reader. Quote: Since jsup is going to be removing the fuel lines valve in the fuel pump. RACE ON!!! |
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Posted on: 2008/1/28 16:55
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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[quote]Hell, it's only what? A 15 gallon tank? :banghead] Yes, it is a 20 gallon tank. You are correct. Anyway, I listen, see above. Just tryin' to learn why and how. Thanks. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/28 16:56
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Quote:
Quote: Hey man... I know I asked a lot of questions and perhaps some were useless, obvious, or just silly. However, is that not the point of a forum? We aren't all engine builders. I am a guy who happens to have a bunch of tools and a desire. Every needs a hobby. I am perfectly capable of turning a wrench, and try to do the best practice to get this together. Like I said, back in 1990, holy crap that's 17 years ago, I put together a L48. That's my last experience. I don't do this every day. Now, that being said, yes, I tend to be a bit thick at times.....this is the interweb, if someone tells me something I don't take it at face value. Nothing personal, just the way it is. I take the advice given, way the options, get more evidence, ask more questions, other questions, and usemy gut for the balance. FWIW, I HAVE used almost all of the suggestions given to me by people on this, and other, forums. Just to clear up....I was NOT hell bent on draining the tank. IF I was, I would have. I took the suggestion of dealing with it at the tank side. I have this incesent need to understand EVERYTHING even if it trancends the question asked. And despite what I tell my wife, I do NOT know everything about everything Like you said, the FSM is silent on many issues, and takes for granted that there is a general basis of knowledge specific to the vehicle. The balance I try to figure out here. This has been as much as a learing experience for me as it has been a physical one. And I picked up the FSM on YOUR suggestion. A good one. So, I DO listen.... To some up, I do appreciate all the help and furthermore the tolerance to my quantity and quality of questions from everyone. Your suggestions, as demonstrated clearly by this thread, do not fall on deaf ears, thanks. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/28 17:48
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| CFI-EFI | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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 COOL! RACE ON!!! |
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Posted on: 2008/1/29 1:33
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| jsup | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Elite Guru
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Here's my final solution.....
I kept the original fuel lines from the manifold down to where they make a 90 degree turn. I cut the solid line right at the point where it hit the rubber. I used a compression fitting on the metal pipe and connected to the flex stainless tubing. The tubing I got is expensive as hell. It was $120 for two pieces about 4.5 feet each. It's hydraulic line (which will tolerate gas) it has a teflon core wrapped in rubber with braided stainless on the outside. I had a 3/8 female compression fitting put on each side. I looped the flex tubing and came around the front of the frame where the control arms connect. There's a provision in the frame in front of the shock that the flex tube fit nicely in. I ran both flex tubings through this portion of frame. I removed the rear wheel well exposing everything under the blower motor. I ran the flex tubing under the blower motor behind the piece of frame that is slanted. Then to the original connections. On the fuel filter and the original connections I made up some solid tubing because the flex tubing could not bend hard enough. The hard tubing goes up at a 90* angle the flex tubing connects to that. Done. The secret is to use some flex tubing and remove the rear wheel well. If you want pics, let me know. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/3 2:47
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| dan0617 | RE:Headers and Fuel lines | ||
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Senior Guru
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NO WAY! YOU CAN'T DO THAT! You are going to blow up your car! What are you thinking?
Just kidding man, sounds like a job well done. It is amazing to look at fuel or brake line work when it is done. Looks so simple, like a 10 minute job, but only a select few know how long it really takes. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/3 14:31
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ยด89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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