|
|
Register To Post |
| CasetheCorvetteman | The EV1 | ||
|
Elite Guru
 
|
I just watched a video about a car made by GM called the EV1, and GM should be ashamed of themselves.
All the people that drove these cars, some drove them quite a hell of alot apparently, reckoned they were great, and very reliable (once they f*cked off the useless AC Delco batteries for something not made in China, Mexico or India) What the f*ck is the go here? All these arseholes want to bitch/moan/whinge about the cost of fuel, these people had a perfectly good starting ground for an electric car market, and they crushed all but one, which is deactivated. What a f*cken disgrace. Even if these cars were a real heap of shit (which they didnt look to be to me, compared to GMs usual pathetic standard of workmanship) they were a very good start and could certainly be improved upon. Anyone that comes back and says something stupid about how much the US automotive industry does for the US economy had better go and pull every part not made in the US off their car today. There wont be much left (especially on newer cars) after you take off the chinese/mexican/indian pieces. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/5 11:17
|
|||
 Transfer
|
 
|
||
| Mekanic | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Registered Vendor
|
The EV1 was a great car, only sold in California. In fact, a modded one went over 170MPH iirc. It was decent looking, and had a cool interior in my opinion.
They were lease only, and at the end of the lease owners BEGGED for GM to sell them the cars so they could keep them, but GM said no, took them all, and crushed them. Goes to show that big oil has its hands in everyones pockets, including the generals. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/5 11:42
|
|||
|
_________________
~Rich Polo LT4 Yea tho I walk through the valley in the shadow of rice, I shall fear no turbo, for torque art with me. |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Elite Guru
|
Yep, i watched the video, but its not just about how they looked or how they perform, the fact is they could be made, and the ability is there to make them, they can make them any which way they want. The same video even had a fully electric powered Toyota RAV-4, which was apparently quicker than the petrol powered RAV-4 of the same model.
Not only did the lease holders beg to keep the cars, they apparently offered some rediculous amount of money to buy them, got turned down, and even told that these cars would be dismantled and recycled, when they were not, they were crushed and wasted. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/5 11:48
|
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| bogus | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
 
|
Not so fast.
I don't have all the documentation with me, but I have read a lot on the EV1. Don't let that movie entirely blinder the truth about the subject. 1. The EV1 was the best electric ever made. No question. It still has the same problem with every other electric car, slow charging and fast discharging. As a city car, it might have been ok. The ACDelco batteries location of manufacture had nothing to do with the simple fact they were LEAD ACID! The WORST thing for an electric car. 2. It was EXPENSIVE. GM was loosing their shirt on every one leased. They were simply too expensive to subsidize. 3. California had issued an edict that 10% of cars sold in CA by like the year 2000 had to be ZEV. It was an impossible goal... the EV1 was the tool to get there, but it simply wasn't economically feasable to make it happen. 4. The reason they were crushed was because of economics, again. Liabilities and warrantees. There is no such thing, really, as "as is" in this country. You can make people sign all sorts of releases but some lawyer will find the loophole. GM didn't want to risk they. The sad part? They had to defend the logical in court. 5. Finally, and most importantly, GM OWNED the EVs... remember, they were LEASED. They were an experiment. You cannot blame big oil on this one. It was simply too much too soon. In time, the lessons learned by the EV will be more practical, but CARB didn't believe it then, and apparently you both don't believe it now, but batteries are still not where they need to be. In time, they will... but not yet. The controller technologies will show up again. They were too good to ignore. I am pretty sure the Volt concept has the next generation controller in it. Final thought, there is a lot more to the EV1 story than that movie. I will admit, I need to see it, but I have read a ton about the tech of the EV1 well before, and have actually seen an EV1 in action, so my reality is a little skewed. Neat concept, utterly unproducable. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/5 14:28
|
|||
|
_________________
The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| BrianCunningham | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Senior Guru
 
|
I worked on an electric car in college, an actually got to see EV1's race in the "Tour de Sol"
Quite an amazing car. a lot of things went into killing the car. People loved them, even though they did have issues, but that's to be expected when going into a new area. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/5 15:41
|
|||
|
_________________
Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CentralCoaster | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Senior Guru
 
|
Most of those people begging could have never afforded it.
Does anyone have a $ number on those? All I've ever heard is that it was astronomical. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/5 21:43
|
|||
|
_________________
1985 Z51, ZF6 |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CentralCoaster | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
Apparently they spent about $1,000,000,000 to build 1000 cars. Do the math. Obviously the more they make, the less they cost, but damn, how much does a run of 1,000 of any other one-off car cost?
|
||
Posted on: 2008/6/5 21:49
|
|||
|
_________________
1985 Z51, ZF6 |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Elite Guru
|
Quote:
They apparently only built 457 of them, and i think youll find they invested 100 mil into research, the cost of the cars wasnt that much at all (it was quite alot yes, but not 100 mil to build them). Ofcourse its going to be alot, they were something that hadnt been done on that level before. Quote:
I agree mate yes. But the thing that got me was the fact they bitched about how much they cost them to make, how much they lost, here is a group of people that wanted to purchase the remaining vehicles, which wouldve got back some of the lost money (which is better than nothing obviously) and yet the spent money to have them crushed. Anything new has issues, crushing them isnt ongoing research, its throwing away a chance to conduct further study on how well they couldve stood the test of time, and it wouldve cost them nothing if they sold the cars to people. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/6 6:47
|
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CentralCoaster | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
They said straight up that after CARB retracted their requirement on % of ZEV's, that GM scrapped the program.
Sounds like good financial sense. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/6 22:38
|
|||
|
_________________
1985 Z51, ZF6 |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| NC Kid | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Elite Guru
|
 Case cusses alot. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/6 23:41
|
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| Touringmike | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
I might be wrong on this but didn't the EV1s' get some pultry miles-per-charge, something like 60?
And, didn't It take 8 hours to recharge. As I said, I might be wrong, but I remember them not being as versatile as current EV prototypes. I'm thinking an electric golf cart serves the same purpose, (Check out The Villages of Fl., cart traffic allowed on the local residential streets, population of 36,000 people.And those old farts down there mod those suckers. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/7 2:04
|
|||
|
_________________
´85 4+3 |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| Touringmike | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
Quote:
Hey Case, Google "Area 51" I'm sure there's some hidden in the Howard Hughes area. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/7 2:06
|
|||
|
_________________
´85 4+3 |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Elite Guru
|
Quote:
Dont know how you figure that, the car were all built, and in operation on the road. Why not sell them to the people that wanted them and make some of that money back? Why spend money to destroy what people were very happy with? That DOES NOT make any sense, let alone on a financial level. Quote:
You quite clearly didnt look into anything about this car well enough. Yes, 60-75 miles range on the first lot in 1996, later with the newer batteries was about 75-95 miles, and later again with the NiMH batteries, up to 150 miles. With batteries of today, the cars would no doubt go a hell of alot further, be alot lighter, and quite abit quicker. No, the first lot didnt take 8 hrs to charge, that was the NiMH batteries, which were the last lot. How many petrol pumps do you have in your garage? How many do you have at work? How many power points do you have around your house and your workplace? Typically im at work 9-10 hrs a day (charging during this time is no issue at all), its a 10 mile trip each way. The highest speed i can do on that trip LEGALLY is 73mph, which was below the speed limiter on an EV1. So there is no question about the fact i could easily drive a car like this to and from work every day, and probably get away with not even charging it for 3 days. Nothing whatso ever like any golfcart ive ever driven, not even a close comparison. The car was electronically limited at a speed higher than any speed limits on the roads there, and was able to go from 0-60 in the 6-7 second bracket (most people here would be lucky to do that in their Corvettes) So given all my driving details posted here, how can you possibly say this car would not easily suit my needs? Most people i know dont have to travel more then 20 miles each way to work. The longest drive i would do in the year is to visit friends, 65 miles away as the crow flies, (funnily enough, he actually has electricity at his house too!!) so even with the NiMH batteries they had in the later cars, i could easily make that trip without a hitch, not even taking into consideration the battery technology of today. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/7 6:30
|
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| Touringmike | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
Quote:
I didn't look up anything on it at all. Just posting what I recall from news reports. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/7 13:05
|
|||
|
_________________
´85 4+3 |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Elite Guru
|
You recall that from nearly 10 years or more ago do you? Cause thats about how long ago it was. Before you post back again condeming this vehicle, answer the statements in the post ubove where i quoted you.
Then think golf cart, and forget all about it. Where the hell did you get that idea? When youre done with that thought, think 0-60mph times, the later EV1s wouldve held their own to your Corvette. Ive done quite alot of looking into this thing over the past few days, so ive got a fair idea on some specs. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/7 16:34
|
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| bogus | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
|
The electric car is a great tool for inner city transport. I think it would solve a lot of localized emissions issues within large cities (think LA).
Here in LA, you could easily go from one end (the north end, the Grape Vine) to the south end (Irvine) and back on one charge. Not a problem, I suspect. It's about 72 miles. In other words, a round trip within the LA Basin would easily be handled by an electric car. But it would ultimately have to be the 2nd car. A commuter, not a road trip car. The recharging cycles are still slow... so a long trip from LA to Phoenix, at about 600 miles, would take 3 days! This is where gas is king. The fuel cell concepts would help a bunch... However, BMW does have a cool new prototype 7 series that runs hydrogen in an internal combustion engine. Works pretty well, as I understand it. Given time, that could be a huge advancement. We could actually tap into the huge reserves of natural gas we have at our disposal and would give us time to find a better solution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ev1 this gives some good info. This is the bottom line with the EV1: "The Gen 1 cars got 55 to 75 miles (90 to 120 km) per charge with the Delco-manufactured lead-acid batteries, 75 to 100 miles (120-to-160 km) with the Gen 2 Panasonic lead-acid batteries, and 75 to 150 miles (120 to 240 km) per charge with Gen 2 Ovonic nickel-metal hydride batteries. Recharging took as much as eight hours for a full charge (although one could get an 80% charge in two to three hours). The battery pack consisted of 26 12-volt lead-acid batteries holding 67.4 MJ (18.7 kWh) of energy or 26 13.2-volt nickel-metal hydride batteries which held 95.1 MJ (26.4 kWh) of energy." |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/7 19:55
|
|||
|
_________________
The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CentralCoaster | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
Quote:
Yeah, at 3am on a Sunday when there's no traffic. I think you'll find that the hydrogen technonolgy is not viable, and neither is ethanol for that matter. They also only tested those EV1s out in SoCal and Arizona, hotter states. They obviously weren't ready for colder environments. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/7 23:51
|
|||
|
_________________
1985 Z51, ZF6 |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Elite Guru
|
Quote:
Perfect for it. That is exactly what most people i know do in their cars. Quote:
Youd think so yes, since it uses very little power when sitting still in traffic, that shouldnt have much effect. Quote:
Which makes it exactly what i would want, and i never go on road trips. Most people i know would drive well within the limits of this vehicle, and would still be cheaper for them to rent a vehicle to do a road trip (infact, that is what a fair few people i know do anyway, and they reckon it works cheaper then taking their own car) Quote:
Its unimportant for the majority of drivers i know. As i say, my car sits for 9-10 hours each day at work, and at least the same at home. If the car does go anywhere with me at night, its never more than a 10-15 mile round trip. The electric car would shit that in no problem, even after id driven it to work and back for 2 days. Given battery standards of today over that of 12 years ago when these cars could do up to 75 miles on a charge, id say there is a very good chance they could do at least double that now. Quote:
There are loads of prototypes running hydrogen. I wouldnt want to hold my breath on it, cause its substantially more expensive to make than petrol, and you get even less range from it then you do from the electric car would get today. All the city council owned public busses here in Australia run on natural gas and have done for years. All the taxis run on LPG and have done for well over 25 years that i can remember. Quote:
Yep, i read all that, have you got anything abit more informative though? Quote:
For those days, that is more than enough for me and most people i know, and in these days, it would be more due to better battery technology, and the car would be more practical again. Quote:
An electric car uses little or nothing sitting still in the traffic. Quote:
I agree on both points, but a hell of alot more so on the hydrogen. Quote:
Thats obvious as you state, however, what one car is suitable for every single person's needs? Not one, cause everyone has a different requirement from a car (i thought i read or saw in a video somewhere some uni kids got an EV1 going again in Wisconsin). There are a very large number of people that a car like this would suit perfectly, more than 80% of the drivers i know could quite easily use even the EV1 as it was 10 years ago, let alone what they could do with something simular today. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/8 1:11
|
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| Touringmike | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
Quote:
Let's just say I don't hold the same amount of enthusiasm for these things as you do. My anecdotal comments are just that, mine. I doubt very seriously they would keep up anywhere near one of my cruising episodes with my '85, about the only thing I use my Corvette for. I'm not a speed freak, so I don't really care how fast they get up to 60. Imagine a battery powered vehicle driving thru Chicago, were it takes an hour to go 1 mile at certain times. I cannot see one of these things on a three lane highway, cruising at 70mph +, for 5 or 6 hours. Plus, I couldn't imagine trying to drive one 1250 miles one way, as we do yearly to visit my wife's family. The cars were not meant for the type of driving going on in our country. As mentioned above by someone else, and with my golf cart reference, these cars would be good for a residential golf course gated community. Not for every day transportation.A type of retirement community cruiser. Just like the golf cart, that numerous communities in the States allow. Now, I'm no expert on this shit, as I've said all along, and these electric cars weren't available in the area I live in, but imagine trying to drive one of those battery powered boxes across your country. Isn't Oz the land wider (more desolate) spaces than the US? And one more thing; sometimes events 10 years or more in the past , have the best recollection for us old timers.  |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/8 1:14
|
|||
|
_________________
´85 4+3 |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Elite Guru
|
Quote:
Youre more than welcome to your comments, and im happy that you share them, but it seems again you havent looked at the info in this thread before youve condemed them yet again. Quote:
Which is where an electric powered car is dead set perfect, and youve failed to take any notice of what has been said. When sitting still, an electric car isnt using its fuel to keep the engine turing over, so therefore, it would use very little power to travel that 1 mile. The only power it would use is the power for what ever accesories are turned on (which is bugger all in the grand scheme of things) Youre treating it like as if the batteries are going to go flat sitting still at the same rate youre going to suck fuel from your tank while sitting still. Not so. Quote:
Another part where you didnt pay any mind to what has been said about them above, they are not designed for that purpose. I dont ever travel more than 65 miles in one trip, and whenever i do that, im at the other end for more than 8 hours. I dont know many people here that do travel more than 65 miles in one hit. Things arent far away here where i live, the beach is about 6 miles east of me, the rainforest is about 15 miles the other way. Quote:
Again you and your driving dont make up the driving habbits of everyone in the the country. Quote:
I think the car is far more capable than you are prepared to give it credit for. And ill say it again, its perfect for everyday transportation, and would do me and most people i know quite fine, and we dont live in a gated comunity. Quote:
Yes, geographically speaking, Australia is bigger than the USA. I wouldnt consider driving across it. Heaps of people would, and as ive said god knows how many times, this vehicle isnt for them. That group that i just called heaps of people probably makes up maybe 15% of the population, and they would be VERY likely to hire a car to do it instead of use their own vehicle. Quote:
Maybe so, might be time to let go of the past then eh?  |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/8 2:46
|
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CentralCoaster | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
So Case, since electric cars are exactly what we need, where do I buy one? Or is it a conspiracy between every single auto mfr around the world to keep us dependent on burning fossil fuels? If there was money to be made surely someone would be cashing in. The only electric vehicles I've seen lately are the NEV's (giant golf carts) and even then it ends up just being a scheme to lower their CAFE ratings or meet CARB standards or something. Nobody actually buys them. Once again, subsidized by environazi's and forced onto a market that doesn't want them.
Where's all that electricity come from anyways? How efficient is it to charge/discharge a battery? Where do they all get disposed? It's not a simple issue. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/8 7:29
|
|||
|
_________________
1985 Z51, ZF6 |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| bogus | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
|
thanks for reminding me about that little detail... where is the electricity coming from?
SoCal had a huge problem with consumption as it is. The same environazis that don't want refineries don't want power plants. something has seriously got to give. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/8 7:56
|
|||
|
_________________
The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Elite Guru
|
Quote:
Mate dont be putting words in my mouth thanks, ive said i dont know how many times in this thread the cars are clearly not for everyone, but there are people that want them. You can deny that fact and belittle me by trying to suggest im saying everyone needs one of these cars all you like, but that isnt what im saying. What i am saying is they had them and destroyed them, yet many many people DID want them. People pay bullshit money for new cars, and no doubt many people would pay bullshit amounts for these if they could be bought or even leased. Now if you want to keep coming back to this same point in saying what you are, how about trying to prove that the car wouldnt suit my needs or the needs of many others in the world? You cant, because the car wouldve been more than capable or doing everything i want. Where i live, we dont have a problem with electricity, its substantially cheaper to make lots more of it then it is to make petrol, its cleaner to make electricity, and its alot more efficient to power things with electricity. The long charging times people here have stated as an issue would be so much less of an issue here where we have a far more efficient power supply system, condsidering our regular 240-250 VAC single phase power (3 phase being 415-430 V) causes most electrical apliances to draw as little as half the current. So while its not as practical IN YOUR OPINIONS to charge batteries as apposed to spending $100 to fill your fuel tanks, over here where our power has some voltage behind it, its going to cost alot less to charge the batteries in less time. More volts means less curent drawn by appliances and equipment, and more volts also means far less loss over a greater distance. Now im sure a couple of you will come along and tell me im wrong about the whole lot, but i dont know, im quietly confident on it all. I work for a bloke that has been an electrical engineer for abit over 42 years, and he knows abit about electricity (it was actually him that showed me this car). Quote:
As i just said, thats YOUR problem, i dont live in SoCal, i live in Australia, and we have no such issues with electrical supply here. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/8 9:20
|
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| Travis93 | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
This one looks like it might fit almost everyones needs.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16503845 Now I just hope I can get one in AWD to get me through the snow. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/8 9:36
|
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Elite Guru
|
You can mate, there is a Toyota RAV4 EV, does over 100 miles on a charge and apparently there is one that has done over 100,000 miles on its original batteries.
|
||
Posted on: 2008/6/8 14:49
|
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| bogus | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
|
What I am alluding to is the bigger picture. I have no clue how your grid looks, but ours sucks big time.
Everytime it gets hot, the power grid strains... and I can see it now: "Heat wave! Save all electric car charging to after dark!" Yea, right. That's gonna work here. In short, the environazis won't be happy until we are all walking in Berkinstocks. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/8 20:30
|
|||
|
_________________
The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| Touringmike | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
Quote:
ALL HAIL BIRKENSTOCK!!!!!!!  |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/8 22:59
|
|||
|
_________________
´85 4+3 |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Elite Guru
|
Quote:
Your heat waves are reasonably tame from what ive heard, when it hits 115*F, then we start to think about it being abit too hot. One of the reasons your electricity grid isnt as tollerant is the lower voltage, which requires more current and fatter wire to do the same job. Ofcourse its way too late to do anything about that now. Thats not the bigger picture, thats the much smaller picture, cause i dont know for sure, but i doubt the whole of the USA has such a power concern as it does in that area. We dont have that problem here at all that ive ever heard of, doesnt mean it doesnt happen, but its never happened anywhere ive ever lived. There are a fair few people i know living not far west of me that have sola power setups, dumping into very large lead-acid batteries and going through an inverter to get it to 240 VAC. There is no environmental impact on sola yet is there? |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/9 4:13
|
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CentralCoaster | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Senior Guru
|
Case, the power transmitted through the grid is somewhere between 30,000 and 500,000 volts. The distance travelled by 220v is extremely short, from the transformer on the pole to the house. Then the 110 and 220 circuits come off of that.
So USA vs. Australia power has basically nothing to do with anything. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/9 5:19
|
|||
|
_________________
1985 Z51, ZF6 |
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
| CasetheCorvetteman | Re: The EV1 | ||
|
Elite Guru
|
The bloke i work for has been an electrical engineer for over 40 years, and he doesnt seem to think so. In his experienced eyes, the lower voltage, however short the run, is less efficient.
Now i dont know how much you know about electricity, i dont know anymore than ive learned from the bloke i work for, ive seen his resume, and his experience speaks for its self, so one has to assume the man knows what he is on about. |
||
Posted on: 2008/6/9 7:01
|
|||
|
Transfer
|
|
||
You can view topic.
You cannot start a new topic.
You cannot reply to posts.
You cannot edit your posts.
You cannot delete your posts.
You cannot add new polls.
You cannot vote in polls.
You cannot attach files to posts.
You cannot post without approval.
|
|