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| biggrizzly | How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Been to the track a lot lately and the C5 and C6 guys have seats that seem to work well with a racing harness setup.
What's the best way to set up a racing harness system in a C4? Harness Bar? How do guys get the belts through the seats? Thanks |
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Posted on: 2008/9/22 2:25
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| BrianCunningham | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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I've got a Hardbar harness bar and TeamTech 6pt harness in mine. Works great, wear it everyday.
[IMG]http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff87/swiftwood/BayStateCorvetteClub/members/Brian%20Cunningham/HardbarCameraMount.jpg[/IMG] With the 6pt, you put the anti-submarine belts between the seat back and bottom, and they secure to the same bolts as the stock belts, he gives you extenders. DO NOT put it over the front of the seat. You can't pull a rope, so they won't do anything if you do that. |
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Posted on: 2008/9/22 3:31
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| BillH | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Brian's right about the antisubs. they won't do the job coming over the front of the seats.
And one thing to remember when installing a harness in any car is that the antisub belt length determines where the lap belt latch ends up when you pull the shoulder belts real tight at the track. If the antisubs are too long the latch will end up higher on your belly when you tighten everything and this can get uncomfortable on the track. You're going to love them. Drivers with stock belts spend a lot of their energy holding their body upright with a heavy grip on the steering wheel. The harness will let you concentrate on driving. Aren't ya glad you heve C4 seats instead of C5? |
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Posted on: 2008/9/22 13:56
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| biggrizzly | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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More photos please. Where do you recomend buying the harness?
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Posted on: 2008/9/22 14:27
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| Aardwolf | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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When I put my setup together I wanted it to comply with the rules from many clubs so that I would always pass tech. The shoulder straps attach to the harness bar and many clubs now require the strap to pass through the seat, not go around it. Same for the sub strap. Many clubs also require the passenger to have the same harness as the driver. So check the rules of the club you want to track with.
On mine I put the lap belts under the stock seat belts and just tuck the harness away while using the normal seat belt for street use. I got my harnesses from saferacer.com and my seats from streetortrack.com as they had free shipping. I had the bases shaved so my head didn't hit the top anymore. |
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Posted on: 2008/9/22 14:38
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| BillH | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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At a race last month I saw a set of the new G Force cam lock beltes and was impressed especially for what thay cost.
I run Willans belts but they're very expensive. I've had Simpsons before but wasn't that wild about them. Schroth & Sparco are very good but a little pricy. I'd give Gary at Hardbar a call. I don't know if any of our forum vendors sell belts. I would get cam lock belts rather than the latchlink type, they're much easier to latch. |
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Posted on: 2008/9/22 14:44
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| Aardwolf | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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I have the G-Force pull down type, and they work very well for me. Adjusting them for different sized instructors though takes to long. For just my use they are great. Plan extra time to get a passenger or instructor squared away. Or get the cam type.
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Posted on: 2008/9/22 15:01
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| BrianCunningham | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Gary @ HardbarUsa.com sold me mine.
Here's how the harness wraps around the bar.  EDIT: BTW Gary sells clips in case you don't want to use it on the street. I actually like using mine on the street. |
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Posted on: 2008/9/22 16:21
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Ahhh, we're revisiting the crash safety topic...near and dear to my heart.
Bottom line - don't use 5 or 6 point belts with stock seats. If I'm correctly following what Brian is suggesting for the anti-sub strap, it may work. But in any stock C4 seats I've seen you would have to wrap the shoulder belts around the seat. Quite simply, in a collision, they'll split apart and you'll go flying forward into all sorts of unpleasant objects. Harnesses are designed to work with a racing seat with holes in the back to keep the belts aligned in the proper position over your shoulders, and prevent them from sliding apart in a crash. Nothing else will do. I've heard of supplemental belts that hook across your chest and supposedly keep the shoulder belts together around a stock seat, but I have not seen crash test data on this idea so I wouldn't trust it to remain in the proper position during an impact. Until a belt supplier (like the ones mentioned by Bill above) designs this into their products and does the extensive testing necesary I'll consider it ineffective. Unless you spend the time and money and do a 5/6 point system correctly you're much better off with your 3 point stock seatbelts and airbag system. I foolishly ran 5 points over my stock seat for years, I can't believe how lucky I am that I never had a forward collision with that set-up. |
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Posted on: 2008/9/22 20:44
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| biggrizzly | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Quote:
This is what some friends of mine with C5 Z06 have told me. However, I wasn't sure for the C4... Still learning |
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Posted on: 2008/9/22 21:01
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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There is a very big difference in safety and the perception of safety. I work on automotive safety products for production vehicles, I've seen hundreds of crashes to support the claims that seat harness suppliers make. This is very serious stuff, and hopefully none of us will ever need it. But your family will be thankful that you did it right if you ever do have anything serious go wrong at the track...
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Posted on: 2008/9/22 23:45
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| BillH | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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The belts that go across and connect your 2 shoulder will work. But, they're not legal for W2W. SCCA and I believe NASA require "single point release" for the harness system. |
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Posted on: 2008/9/23 14:56
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| BillH | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Quote:
Good point about the race vs stock seats. There are ways to mount race seats and switch back to stock in about 10 minutes per seat. Gary's seat rails may be one way. Yes, more money, isn't it always that way? One of my students found a set of used Sparcos at a extremely low price and put them in his C5. There are seats out there with the correct holes that still can be used for the street, too. |
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Posted on: 2008/9/23 15:06
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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That makes sense as well. I wasn't even thinking about your ability to exit in case of fire. I found plenty of nice seats available for about half of the new price. The big names like Sparco and Momo are nice, but expensive. Much of that is due to the flammability requirements imposed on W2W racing, as well as the seat back structure (solid shell vs. tube frame). For a street / HPDE car I'd have no qualms going with a cheaper alternative like a Corbeau seat. In fact that's what I to install in my passenger side when I do driving schools. The seat back brace required by NASA and SCCA is somewhat irrelevant in a Corvette, I have yet to meet someone who puts their seat up so far that the seat back wouldn't hit the back of the car in a rearward impact. Although I was forced to install one in the race car. It almost wouldn't fit because there was not enough clearance between the seat back and the vehicle tub. Stupid application of rules without logical considerations...and $100 out of my pocket. |
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Posted on: 2008/9/23 15:27
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Posted on: 2008/9/23 17:51
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| BrianCunningham | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Kirkley makes some nice seats at a reasonable price.
I actually like AL seats better than composite, unless your talking kevlar. The halo on our cars is pretty strong, but if you get real serious you want a cage or at least a rollbar rather than a harness bar. The car will also perform better since it takes the C4's imfamous chassis flex out. |
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Posted on: 2008/9/23 18:50
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| CentralCoaster | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Do you guys think submarining in a stock seatbelt is possible?
I've always felt the lap belt is too high up into my gut. I'd hate to find out what happens when I slam into an immobile object at 50mph. |
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Posted on: 2008/9/23 21:40
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Absolutely it's possible. You need to make sure that it is securely fixed across your pelvis, not your belly. This applies to any car. The seats are often designed to help keep you from sliding forward in a crash, but belt position is everything. |
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Posted on: 2008/9/24 14:14
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| BillH | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Anything's possible.
It's interesting that the seats can be moved around but the belt location doesn't move. And we're in a much more laid back seating position than most cars. Yea, if the belt's up on your gut, that's not the best. There's some very specific belt location info one of the mfg's websites, Sparco, if I remember right. The lap belt is supposed to cross right under your hip bone. This does put it under your gut. That being said, the stock belts probably wouldn't let you submarine. I would think that the engineers would have had to address it if it was a big problem. |
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Posted on: 2008/9/24 14:26
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| biggrizzly | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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OK - dumb question
What do you guys mean by submarining? I noticed someone else used that term up above and I wasn't sure what that meant. Thanks |
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Posted on: 2008/9/24 14:27
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| BillH | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Quote:
Sliding forward under braking. Once you start threshold braking, the G forces really mount up. And with the more laid back, legs straight seating position in our cars it happens quicker. You basically can slid under the lap belt. The sub belts really help keep you in the seat. But the main purpose is to keep you from submarining in a head on crash. |
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Posted on: 2008/9/24 14:35
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| CentralCoaster | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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I'm guessing in that situation the lap belt would turn your intestines turning into scrambled eggs, or turn you into 2 pieces.
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Posted on: 2008/9/24 14:50
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| BillH | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Yea, it'd be fugly. My gut seems to be growing, taking on a mind of it's own. Maybe if you have a bigger gut and the belt under it, it'll keep you from subbing. |
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Posted on: 2008/9/24 15:05
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| CentralCoaster | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Yes sir, on the way to the store now for more Budweiser. In the name of driver safety!
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Posted on: 2008/9/24 15:12
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| BillH | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Quote:
Ha! |
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Posted on: 2008/9/24 15:26
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| skirlin | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Would this get rid of the chassis flex and make a good mounting location for a harness? [IMG]http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm183/skirlin/bar2001gary.jpg[/IMG] ...providing the correct seats are used? |
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Posted on: 2008/9/25 16:10
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| BrianCunningham | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Yes
You'd want to tie into the front as well, a 6 point, which is the bar above put downtubes to the front. You can get swingout bars, legal for drag racing, but not with the SCCA, but perfectly fine for HPDE's. You can weld them up later if you want to go wheel-to-wheel. SCCA hoops have tougher standards than NHRA. The tubing needs to be larger. |
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Posted on: 2008/9/25 17:49
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| BrianCunningham | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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The make padding for harnesses to help spread the load out.
The ones with sterum straps are great for doing this, but they also do it for the pelvic area. BTW Gary also sells, and runs, a JetPilot harness. A unique solution to submarining. http://hardbarusa.com/hardbar/product ... p?cPath=27&products_id=59 http://www.teamtechmotorsports.com/racingharness/jetpilot.html  Quote: The Jet Pilot is the best harness available and is the best solution for stock type seats. We not not only sell these, but use them. Jet Pilot - This Uniquely Patented design incorporates padded leg straps for zero "Forward Excursion of the pelvis underneath the lab belt"(also called Submarining). This System is similar in function to a repelling harness. The adjustable anti-submarining straps wrap around the upper thighs of each leg and attach to the latch/link buckle(or rotary buckle) lap belt. This harness also comes with chest and pelvic pads, a sternum strap, and lumbar support to complete the Jet Pilot system. These harnesses have the most anti-Submarine control available in addition to further limiting any awkward sideways leg movement and pivoting of the pelvis in the seat. This support is essential during off-road and road race and marine racing courses where compound off center horizontal - vertical movements and high deceleration rates are extreme. If you need to stay put in your seat, and not slide under the lap belt, the Jet Pilot Harness is designed especially for you. The Jet Pilot harness is only available with pull-up lap belt adjustments. |
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Posted on: 2008/9/25 19:39
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| CentralCoaster | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Very cool. So it looks like you sort of pull the belts around your thighs and buckle them to the center. But how does it prevent the shoulder straps from spreading when used on a stock vette seat?
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Posted on: 2008/9/26 0:23
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| Matatk | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Brian - looks interesting. Do the thigh straps detach quickly/easily in case of an emergency, like a fire or a roll over? (ie, is it a one button release, or multiple connections?)
Matthew |
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Posted on: 2008/9/26 1:09
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| BrianCunningham | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Yes, Gary's the better guy to answer the questions.
But if you go to the links above you can see the pics  EDIT: Installed on Gary's C6Z06 [IMG]http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff87/swiftwood/Corvette/misc/DSC_0013a.jpg[/IMG] |
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Posted on: 2008/9/26 1:38
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| BrianCunningham | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Here's a 6pt install on a C5
[IMG]http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff87/swiftwood/Corvette/misc/lap1.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff87/swiftwood/Corvette/misc/lap2.jpg[/IMG] On a C4 you can go to the stock belt bolts. BTW you can still use the regular belt after this |
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Posted on: 2008/9/26 1:56
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| ghoffman | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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The Teamtech JetPilot is the best and most advanced harness, period. It is however, very different and very hard to explain. The lower part is like a parachute harness in that your thighs and pelvis are totally constrained. You would not want to jump out of a plane at 150MPH with your nads reacting the load like you have with a 6 point or a 5 point. The lap belt goes around your thighs below and above and gives you not only fore and aft support but left and right as well. It has some downsides as well. It is made for each person and has limited (3-4 inch) adjustment and is not for 2 people of very different size. As far as the upper part goes, it is fully padded (think business suit vest) not just 2, 3 inch straps, and has a NASCAR approved sternum strap that is very different from the dangerous latch type common on Simpson, Impact harnesses. It is a Velcro strap that goes through a loop and keeps the harness on your shoulders and HANS. It has no sub belt per se, but qualifies as a "6 point". I use it personally and everyone that has one loves it. One twist of the cam lock, either way, releases it all (plus the Velcro sternum strap which just rips off). The cool thing is it only has 4 attachment points to the car, no need to fish a sub belt somewhere.
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Posted on: 2008/9/26 2:03
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| CentralCoaster | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Would it also keep me from puckering my shorts up my ass every time I the rear tires drift out?
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Posted on: 2008/9/26 3:51
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| Matatk | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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I thought you didn't wear any? Matthew Quote:
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Posted on: 2008/9/26 11:34
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| ghoffman | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Ah, no, but it can be re-webbed if you soil it or when it becomes out of date. Brian and Tom have driven with me at Loudon and Lime Rock, and with an LS-7, I am always a little loose! When it doubt, gas it! |
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Posted on: 2008/9/26 12:34
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| BillH | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Really interesting, I'd like to try one of those and see how it feels compared to the standard 6 point.
It certainly would be easier to get into. Not that it's a big deal but, pulling the sub straps over your leg, then thru the lap belt D ring and trying to clip the sub and an arm restraint clip together takes a little time. It's really fun on pregrid when you're by yourself, all cliped in, they throw the 5 minute sign and you remember that the aux. battery is still pluged in. Does the 4 point have any approvals, SCCA/NASA? Without a waiver, it won't meet current requirements. And the sternum, other than NASCAR? |
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Posted on: 2008/9/26 13:56
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| ghoffman | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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From Curt Tucker, owner and designer of Teamtech:
The Jet Pilot Pac is listed with SFI as a 6 or 7 point providing that it has two anti-submarine straps the addition of a middle anti-submarine strap constitutes a 7 point harness. Anti-submarine straps are designed to prevent the forward excursion of the pelvic region under the lap belt, the original design theory was that if the pelvic region is tied directly into the lap belt then the possibility of excursion is thus eliminated, this theory has been for years tested and proven correct and effective by hundreds of racers world wide, SFI test laboratories and dynamic sled testing as well. Many people make the mistake of noting the number of straps anchoring to the vehicle in which the harness is used, the number of straps anchored can either be a benefit or if incorrectly positioned prior or after mounting can be a detriment. Counter comments in defense of the sternum are it keeps the shoulder belts targeted on the HANS Device in both lateral high g-turns and roll overs, stabilizes the shoulder belts with out HANS Devices as well, helps to properly position the shoulder adjusters and prevents or eliminates the possibility of bruised or broken sternum and/or thorax region when used with TEAMTECH's impact dispersion padding. SCCA Pro Racing approved (see rules appendage J). The Jet Pilot as you know has performed incredibly since I designed it in late 1991, it continues to be the favorite of many monster truck drivers, off road racers, boat and automobile racers very where do to its comfort, ability to pull the user tightly and securely back into the seat and provides incredible impact resistance as well as survivability as well. Many consider it to be a performance item as well, that is interesting because its not bolted to the engine. Many racers state that they reduce as much as 1 to 1.5 seconds off their road race course times just by using the Jet Pilot Pac, lets do the math reduce your track time by 1 to 2 seconds for $400 and change or spend $4,000 on engine performance parts to reduce the same amount of track time. By the way, this story was not fiction but first noted and proven by Randy Popst and his Porsche car owner Bob Raub (80's Tran Am Champ) of 3 R Automotive Englewood Colorado. |
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Posted on: 2008/9/26 15:25
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Elite Guru
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I'd like to see some crash test results. I coulnd't find any on the jetpilot website, any links available?
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Posted on: 2008/9/26 20:09
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aka Scaryfast |
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Transfer
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| ghoffman | Re: How to... Racing Harness in a C4? | ||
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Senior Guru
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Go to page 5 of the downloadable PDF. If you need more specificity, I will ask Kurt.
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Posted on: 2008/9/26 20:34
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Transfer
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