jsup wrote:
Problem is people spend money on this crap and no one will call it what it is...marketing, proving nothing.

CentralCoaster wrote:
Quote:

jsup wrote:
Problem is people spend money on this crap and no one will call it what it is...marketing, proving nothing.

And what have you proven? If you want the comparison done your way, then pay for it yourself.

Don't bring that shit over here. I don't want to see another thread on the issue unless it has dyno results in it.

CentralCoaster wrote:
Quote:

jsup wrote:
Problem is people spend money on this crap and no one will call it what it is...marketing, proving nothing.

And what have you proven? If you want the comparison done your way, then pay for it yourself.

Don't bring that shit over here. I don't want to see another thread on the issue unless it has dyno results in it.

CentralCoaster wrote:
Well, it seems to me that your only evidence is that you "know a guy".

I have no problem with questioning people's brand loyalty, but when it becomes defamation of someone's business, it has to stop. If you have beef with him, the burden of proof is on you, not him.

wesmigletz wrote:
I'm looking forward to seeing the results of the dyno comparisons. Seems to me someone stepped-up to do the work on their car and AFR is staking their reputation and putting their product where their mouth is.

The results should be interesting one way or another.

cuisinartvette wrote:
Youll be seeing plenty of those in upcoming months (head and cam swaps and fresh build results).

As far as post #1 you coudnt be any farther from the truth and wrong period. No offense but you dont have a clue.

cuisinartvette wrote:
As far as post #1 you coudnt be any farther from the truth and wrong period. No offense but you dont have a clue.
Maybe most in "marketing their product" fluff and BS it up but believe it or not there are some out there that actually tell the truth about their product. To assume everyone is dishonest and bash them like that is wrong.

jsup wrote:

cuisinartvette wrote:

jsup wrote:


Hey, do you think Brodix would tell you to buy a Dart head? Has ANY manufacturer ever told any person to buy a head they didn't make? Didn't think so. That's my point.
Why would they?

And if a manufacturer runs a test, and the results are poor, do they report them? No.
Thats called R&D sure it happens all the time.
When a manufacturer runs a test and has control over the environment, will they try to manage the outcome? Of course.

When those H/C swaps are done, at the end of the day all we can say is that head, cam, intake combo made XXX HP. Proves nothing beyond that.
What else is there to prove, thats the whole idea-find out what you got.

DropTopCE wrote:
That's what happens when you keep poking the Bear with a stick. Guess you will have to rant here and in DC.

jsup wrote:


You think I enjoy ranting?

DropTopCE wrote:
Quote:

jsup wrote:


You think I enjoy ranting?

Yes

cuisinartvette wrote:
lol you make yourself the center of debate in those. How many threads have been hijacked into a "prove it" thread?
I think you enjoy it.

TPI-guy wrote:
Jsup. I went over to the Dart site, and looked at those heads you put on your big stroker. They appear to be good heads, but more of a budget minded head. You have send me numerous private emails in regards to your disguss with AFR, and I still don't get it Jsup. I read that locked thread, and I still can't believe Mr.Mamo is willing to ship you a set of heads to clear your head. I told you 2 of 3 of my cars had AFR heads and you told me that I fell into the marketing game, when infact, I purchased them because they work, and they made the power.

cuisinartvette wrote:
[QUOTE]And tell me again why I should take a brand new motor apart built by a well known builder and swap heads? I don't get it. What's in it for me other than a bastardized motor?[/QUOTE]

The proof you wanted
A more powerful motor

TPI-guy wrote:
Jsup. I went over to the Dart site, and looked at those heads you put on your big stroker. They appear to be good heads, but more of a budget minded head. You have send me numerous private emails in regards to your disguss with AFR, and I still don't get it Jsup. I read that locked thread, and I still can't believe Mr.Mamo is willing to ship you a set of heads to clear your head. I told you 2 of 3 of my cars had AFR heads and you told me that I fell into the marketing game, when infact, I purchased them because they work, and they made the power.

pr0zac wrote:
Quote:

TPI-guy wrote:
Jsup. I went over to the Dart site, and looked at those heads you put on your big stroker. They appear to be good heads, but more of a budget minded head. You have send me numerous private emails in regards to your disguss with AFR, and I still don't get it Jsup. I read that locked thread, and I still can't believe Mr.Mamo is willing to ship you a set of heads to clear your head. I told you 2 of 3 of my cars had AFR heads and you told me that I fell into the marketing game, when infact, I purchased them because they work, and they made the power.

how much of a difference do you believe would there have been if you went with a different head? would it have been night and day? would it have been a negative or positive difference? that is the moral of the story. does your afr headed cars make more power than jsup's?

pr0zac wrote:
Quote:

TPI-guy wrote:
Jsup. I went over to the Dart site, and looked at those heads you put on your big stroker. They appear to be good heads, but more of a budget minded head. You have send me numerous private emails in regards to your disguss with AFR, and I still don't get it Jsup. I read that locked thread, and I still can't believe Mr.Mamo is willing to ship you a set of heads to clear your head. I told you 2 of 3 of my cars had AFR heads and you told me that I fell into the marketing game, when infact, I purchased them because they work, and they made the power.

how much of a difference do you believe would there have been if you went with a different head? would it have been night and day? would it have been a negative or positive difference? that is the moral of the story. does your afr headed cars make more power than jsup's?

jsup wrote:
Quote:

pr0zac wrote:
Quote:

TPI-guy wrote:
Jsup. I went over to the Dart site, and looked at those heads you put on your big stroker. They appear to be good heads, but more of a budget minded head. You have send me numerous private emails in regards to your disguss with AFR, and I still don't get it Jsup. I read that locked thread, and I still can't believe Mr.Mamo is willing to ship you a set of heads to clear your head. I told you 2 of 3 of my cars had AFR heads and you told me that I fell into the marketing game, when infact, I purchased them because they work, and they made the power.

how much of a difference do you believe would there have been if you went with a different head? would it have been night and day? would it have been a negative or positive difference? that is the moral of the story. does your afr headed cars make more power than jsup's?

Clearly, as you yourself pointed out when someone says "they made power" that can mean a lot of different things to a lot of people. Again, as you pointed out, the power wasn't all that impressive.

TPI-guy wrote:
It's up to you, because you are the one blasting AFR.

I guess it's the out saying, "put up or shut up".

Jsup you can do what you want. We all know what the answer will be anyways. To be honest, I am not even a member of the CF, and a member here sent me a few of your threads over there, and I couldnt believe what I was reading.

I dont know if any other head would of made more power or not, but I am thinking about taking of my old AFR 190's, and getting there newest and latest 195's, and putting some more pop back into the old girl.

Jsup. I don't know why you care if person x gets AFR's or not. I wouldn't let it bother you. It's not your money.

TPI-guy wrote:


One of my car does, and the old girl doesn't. Prozac, I could care less what head Jsup puts on his car. I am sure it will run really hard. I just don't get the AFR debut. It's almost as if he is jealous or has a hard on for AFR. I have never seen such strange behaviour infact.

TPI-guy wrote:


Get that car tuned, and let's see how good ole' Pat is at picking a combination.

TPI-guy wrote:
Quote:

jsup wrote:
Quote:

pr0zac wrote:
Quote:

TPI-guy wrote:
Jsup. I went over to the Dart site, and looked at those heads you put on your big stroker. They appear to be good heads, but more of a budget minded head. You have send me numerous private emails in regards to your disguss with AFR, and I still don't get it Jsup. I read that locked thread, and I still can't believe Mr.Mamo is willing to ship you a set of heads to clear your head. I told you 2 of 3 of my cars had AFR heads and you told me that I fell into the marketing game, when infact, I purchased them because they work, and they made the power.

how much of a difference do you believe would there have been if you went with a different head? would it have been night and day? would it have been a negative or positive difference? that is the moral of the story. does your afr headed cars make more power than jsup's?

Clearly, as you yourself pointed out when someone says "they made power" that can mean a lot of different things to a lot of people. Again, as you pointed out, the power wasn't all that impressive.

Jsup. This isn't going anywhere. You could talk about cylinder heads until YOU are blue in the face.

Get that car tuned, and let's see how good ole' Pat is at picking a combination.

jsup wrote:
Quote:

TPI-guy wrote:


One of my car does, and the old girl doesn't. Prozac, I could care less what head Jsup puts on his car. I am sure it will run really hard. I just don't get the AFR debut. It's almost as if he is jealous or has a hard on for AFR. I have never seen such strange behaviour infact.

You do know that Pr0zac took those heads off his car and lost power right.

I have ZERO against any product. I have a problem with false, uneducated, undocumented claims.

jsup wrote:
Quote:

cuisinartvette wrote:
[QUOTE]And tell me again why I should take a brand new motor apart built by a well known builder and swap heads? I don't get it. What's in it for me other than a bastardized motor?[/QUOTE]

The proof you wanted
A more powerful motor

How much more power will you guarantee me?

And why is it up to me the consumer to prove a claim?

Isn't that the manufacturer's job?

How do you substantiate that I will make more power?

Can you post the science and physics behind that assumption for proof?

How the hell do we always wind up down this road?

TPI-guy wrote:
Jsup. At the end of the day, I will not be spending hours, and hours each day to talk about cylinder heads. I have a family, and have much better things to do with my time.

I like AFR. You like Dart. Both have great cylinder heads!

But the difference is, I have 2 motors that are running AFR, and I am happy with both. If I were you, I would wait a little bit longer to shoot your mouth off. You might see that your 600chp turns into 530chp.

You keep on mentioning about you leaving 40 hp on the table. Where does this come from?

TPI-guy wrote:
Jsup. At the end of the day, I will not be spending hours, and hours each day to talk about cylinder heads. I have a family, and have much better things to do with my time.

I like AFR. You like Dart. Both have great cylinder heads!

But the difference is, I have 2 motors that are running AFR, and I am happy with both. If I were you, I would wait a little bit longer to shoot your mouth off. You might see that your 600chp turns into 530chp.

You keep on mentioning about you leaving 40 hp on the table. Where does this come from?

cuisinartvette wrote:
Quote:

jsup wrote:
Quote:

cuisinartvette wrote:
[QUOTE]And tell me again why I should take a brand new motor apart built by a well known builder and swap heads? I don't get it. What's in it for me other than a bastardized motor?[/QUOTE]

The proof you wanted
A more powerful motor

How much more power will you guarantee me?

And why is it up to me the consumer to prove a claim?

Isn't that the manufacturer's job?

How do you substantiate that I will make more power?

Can you post the science and physics behind that assumption for proof?

How the hell do we always wind up down this road?

Weve been through this 1000 times and you know the answer.
Tons of links, testonials, etc. I have seen myself forst hand actual head swaps on friends cars and the difference is night and day both in power and throttle response. Until you see it for yourself there is no convincing but if you dont care like you claim why such the issue with them?
You could have had a set if thats what you wanted, is that what youre really upset about?

cuisinartvette wrote:
You were offered an opp to prove it with your car, your motor. You turned it down for reasons of your own, fine.
What more do you want?

[QUOTE]Whatever, it's a bullshit answer. "I know a guy" isn't an answer. Same old stuff.[/QUOTE]

No jsup, I turned wrenches on those swaps and drove them.
Last swap was a set of Dart Iron 200s ported for huge numbers on a 70 Nova, 383 etc etc etc. Car was a Pooch.Ran good but didnt make the power it should have.
On went a set of stock 195s with no porting, I was frankly shocked at the difference. The 195d made less #s, too. just one example. Not all of us are "book readers". I was skeptical at first too.

pr0zac wrote:
i just don't get why people just can't see whats in black and white?

cuisinartvette wrote:
Nope, those were brand new castings that were ported and assembled. The 195s that replaced them were pre-eliminators.

I fell for the same crap in 99, bought a set of Dart 200 Conquest heads because they were "close enough" I was told to the AFR 190s back then. over $200 I cheaped out. Kinda knew better but fell for the hopeful BS. Car lost low end picked up a little midrange and was about the same up top compared to stock 462 heads. $2000 in professional porting later they appear to be pretty substantial only the runner now is probably around 215 or better and have had to build a motor, regear, lighten the car, grind a custom cam in hopes it will work well which it probably will. Id trade them in a hot second for a 195 Comp Port, put it that way.

Anyway the reason I harp on it is to keep some from making the same mistakes, if you want to call names, bash, categorize because of it go ahead. Im simply trying to help out, hate hearing similar stories of guys having to spend the money 2-3x to get what they wanted in the first place, then be pissed off about it for God knows how long.BTDT got the Tshirt....call it passion for the hobby.

Whatever, I need groceries.....Ugh.