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| Travis93 | Rocker help | ||
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Senior Guru
 
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I have some GMPP 1.6:1 rockers in my car right now but one of them is making a lot of noise and a few others are kind of loud. I was looking to replace a few of them but it looks like you cannot get them anymore unless its in a kit of 16. So anyway I started looking around at other sets and CompCams has a roller tip that sounds like it might be good for a good price, but Scorpion has a set of full roller for about $50 more. I was wandering if there would be much more power with full roller and how much quieter the roller tip rockers would be. Any other suggestions are welcome just remember I am trying to work this with some monetary constraints.
Before I buy anything I still have to make sure the rockers are whats making the noise I figured I would swap the loud one and a quiet one and see if the noise moves or not. I guess if it does not move I probably need lifters? I have a very loud ticking sound mostly from 1 rocker like I said. Thanks for any help. |
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Posted on: 2009/3/26 4:49
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| bogus | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
 
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Are you sure they are adjusted right? Also, are they hitting the rocker cover?
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Posted on: 2009/3/26 6:03
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Travis93 | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Senior Guru
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I can not be absolutely sure they are adjusted right because this is my first time doing a head cam swap but I have adjusted them 3 times using 3 different instructions, 1 running 2 different cranking by hand, with identical results. I know what ones are making noise by using a mechanic stethoscope with the valve covers off and it is louder with them off I also do not see any signs of contact inside the covers. I made the mistake of buying used rockers and 1 felt bad right out of the box, I did get a replacement for that one and the rest felt smooth but I think there is a high likelihood a couple of the other are bad too. Try and save a couple bucks and end up doing the job twice or in this case about 5 times so far. This build has not been any fun at all I cant wait tell its over.
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Posted on: 2009/3/26 7:56
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| anesthes | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Master Guru
 
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Quote:
When you adjust them running, the motor really needs to be hot. I always do a running adjustment. While I have, in a few situations done it on the stand, I always went back and redid them after finding one or two loose or tight. With polylocks, it's very easy. You can hear and feel the slack being taken up, then you just go about a half turn to preload the lifter about .050" on a 3/8" stud. Noise is almost always a loose rocker. |
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Posted on: 2009/3/26 13:15
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| Midnight85 | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Guru
 
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I prefer to run the valves with the engine off and I have never had an issue doing it that way but there is absolutely nothing wrong with anesthes' procedure either. First off, are you running a hydraulic cam? A solid lifter will make noise because of the the lash setting. Here's a procedure I use. Starting at number one cylinder I turn the engine until number 1 intake valve is almost closed, at this point I set the exhaust valve. Then run the engine over until the exhaust is just starting to open, this is where you will set the intake. Check with the lifter mfgr. and see what preload setting they recommend, Crane suggests 1/2 to 1 turn after zero lash. I had to do the full 1 turn on my engine but there is no valvetrain noise. Also don't mistake injectors clicking for valvetrain noise. I had some Ford pinktops in mine for a while that were very loud.
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Posted on: 2009/3/26 14:23
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HORSEPOWER! Some is good, more is better, too much is just right. |
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| CFI-EFI | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Senior Guru
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I have never heard of a noisy rocker being a rocker problem. It is always a loose valve adjustment. If the noise really is coming from a worn or defective rocker arm, don't run that engine any more than necessary. If the rocker arm is so bad that it makes that much noise I would be afraid it is ready to break or come apart sending shrapnel and small parts through out your engine.
Adjusting the preload of the lifters with the engine running provides the most dramatic indication of zero lash. This can be convenient when you are setting the preload to near zero for minimum pump up. Near zero preload is NOT a good idea for a DD. The fact that yours makes noise indicate that you didn't miss zero lash and tighten them too much. At this point, I think I would simply tighten the noisy lifers with the engine running to assure you had found and corrected the problem. RACE ON!!! |
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Posted on: 2009/3/26 15:57
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| Travis93 | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Senior Guru
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Thank you very much for the responses.
Quote:
When I tried adjusting with it running it was not hot that could be a problem. I don't think I would have any oil left running it that long without valve covers on. Quote:
I got the cam from Lloyd Elliot I believe he said it was a hydraulic it was marked LE1.6 if that helps. I am also using stock lifters. I was seeing suggestions of 1/4 to 1/2 turn after zero before to I went with 3/8 to start with but this last time I went to 1/2 maybe I just have to go more. I tried your method of adjustment last time and felt the most comfortable with it so that is probably the way I will go again. I did change the injectors with no change in sound and using the stethoscope I can pretty much pinpoint exactly where the ticking is coming from Quote:
Well this is encouraging maybe I dont have to spend more money, just figure out how to adjust rockers properly. Do you agree that the engine needs to be hot to adjust running? I guess I could warm it up then pull the covers off its just that the worst one is under the alternator, couldnt be the easy side could it. Thank you very much for the help. |
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Posted on: 2009/3/26 18:50
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| CFI-EFI | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Senior Guru
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NO! I do not agree that the engine should be hot. It should be warm enough to get it off of cold idle to help from tossing oil all over the place, but for the accuracy of the adjustment, the engine temp is inconsequential. Mechanical cam valve lash adjustments change the amount of play (lash) in the valve train. With a mechanical cam the parts expand with heat and the valve lash changes with different temps. The expansion of the valve train parts is the reason for mechanical lifters to have lash. Most mechanical cams are spec'ed with the hot lash. With a hydraulic cam, all you are setting is the amount of preload on the plunger inside of the lifter. Whether 1/4 turn, a half turn, 3/4, or even a full turn makes no difference on how the engine will run. If it is quieter at 1 turn (for some unknown reason) than at 3/4, leave it there. Because with a hydraulic cam all you are setting is preload, the hydraulic lifter automatically, constantly, adjusts the lash to zero, the temp isn't an issue. I hope that helps. RACE ON!!! |
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Posted on: 2009/3/26 21:57
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| Travis93 | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Senior Guru
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Thank you that helps. I hope to have a chance to work with it tomorrow keeping my fingers crossed that I can get it right this time.
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Posted on: 2009/3/26 22:49
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| CFI-EFI | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Senior Guru
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I'm betting that you will. You are soooo close.
RACE ON!!! |
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Posted on: 2009/3/26 23:33
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| red_johnny | Re: Rocker help | ||
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On Sabbatical
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Wow, some really good info here. I learned some things!!!! Great to see the members rolling up their sleeves to help...sort-of-speak.
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Posted on: 2009/3/26 23:44
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| anesthes | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Master Guru
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Depends on if you ask the guy who works the parts counter at the local discount auto parts store, or the guy who owned a shop for 10+ years. I like to do hydraulic hot. On a lot of GM applications, when the motor is cold and you start it up the rockers will tick. As parts expand and lifters pump up it takes up the slack. When adjusting cold, you might be tempted to tighten the rockers too much to get rid of the tick. When the motor gets hot, you might have exhausted all the preload in the lifter resulting in hanging the valve open a hair. Some guys own two vehicles at most, and adjust valves once or twice every 3 years. Other guys do it a couple times a week or more depending on the work load at the shop. And you never want to trust the guys who sell you parts, if they were capable they would be the guys INSTALLING parts.. Think about it.. -- Joe |
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Posted on: 2009/3/27 12:26
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| anesthes | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Master Guru
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I lay cardboard in the lip of the head. Any pooling oil runs back into the pan. For OE type rockers, they sell stupid little clips that redirect the oil downward too. I throw OE rockers out. Roller rockers are so cheap. I literally did this like 3 times a week when we were busy. It's not a big deal. You will be fine. -- Joe |
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Posted on: 2009/3/27 12:30
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| Midnight85 | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Guru
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CFI-EFI wrote:
[/quote] With a hydraulic cam, all you are setting is the amount of preload on the plunger inside of the lifter. Whether 1/4 turn, a half turn, 3/4, or even a full turn makes no difference on how the engine will run. If it is quieter at 1 turn (for some unknown reason) than at 3/4, leave it there. Because with a hydraulic cam all you are setting is preload, the hydraulic lifter automatically, constantly, adjusts the lash to zero, the temp isn't an issue. I hope that helps. RACE ON!!![/quote] I was hesitant to go one full turn after zero lash but 1/4 and 1/2 didn't get the noise out. Only until I read the article by Crane on lifter adjustment again did I try the full turn. It definitely made a difference but I am unsure why. |
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Posted on: 2009/3/27 14:07
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HORSEPOWER! Some is good, more is better, too much is just right. |
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| CFI-EFI | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Senior Guru
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When you come across that guy described above, by all means, as advised, question his response. Question ALL responses. Quote:
You can't argue what a person likes. The OP asked if it was necessary for the engine to be hot. The quick answer is , "No". I'm not saying there is anything wrong with setting the preload of hydraulic lifters on a hot, running engine. All I'm saying is that isn't the only way. Many, many, engines get assembled, many, many cams get installed, with the preload set while the engine is dead cold and never started. It doesn't help anyone for a "Mr. owned a shop for 10+ years" to be taking pot shots and placing labels on people they know nothing about. RACE ON!!! |
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Posted on: 2009/3/27 15:49
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| Travis93 | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Senior Guru
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Well I got a chance to get in there and redo this job again. I adjusted the way midnight85 suggested with 1 full turn then started the car with the covers off so I could fine tune them. Well it was much quieter right away and each rocker was making about the same level of noise. It is still a little louder than stock but probably normal for these rockers. Thank you all very much for helping me out. Now to try and finish up my tune, I hope this and the new O2 sensors help the BLM split.
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Posted on: 2009/3/28 3:43
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| CFI-EFI | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Senior Guru
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First of all, it is great that you got the job done satisfactorily. The advice you followed from Midnight85 was a good choice. I'm appreciate the follow up report and I'm glad your problem is solved.
RACE ON!!! |
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Posted on: 2009/3/28 16:04
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| Travis93 | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Senior Guru
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This is update day so if this is a repeat for some sorry about that I just know I like to see the final resolution when I read a thread.
Anyway the rockers got loud again, or maybe they never really quieted down as much as I thought. It turns out the GM rockers I used are not compatible with the springs and keepers Lloyd Elliot used when he did my heads and they hit.    Now I have scorpions on the car and almost no rocker noise at all. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/11 17:34
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| 1Fast04Vert | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Elite Guru
 
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Hope your filter caught all the metal debris.
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Posted on: 2009/6/11 18:46
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2004 Vert. 475hp. Built by Vengeance Racing |
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| Travis93 | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Senior Guru
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Me too, it and the oil has been changed twice in the last 100 miles so I think I have a good chance of surviving this.
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Posted on: 2009/6/11 19:02
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Elite Guru
 
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Seems like you took the proper precautions, I personally would not sweat it. Did all the rockers look like that, or was it just a few?
DG |
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Posted on: 2009/6/11 19:29
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| Travis93 | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Senior Guru
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All of them. Some worse than others the one pictured is a bit above average. It looks to me like they are still good rockers if used in the proper application.
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Posted on: 2009/6/11 19:35
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| dan0617 | Re: Rocker help | ||
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Senior Guru
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Is it even possible to run self aligning rockers with those valve springs and such? Those things look huge on top.
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Posted on: 2009/6/18 19:33
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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