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BillH | Heel & Toe | ||
The Stig Moderator
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I've been teaching track drivers heel & toe for quite a few years. Here's a very good explaination with pics:
http://www.springmountainmotorsports.com/category/driving-tips/ I don't necessarily agree that this shouldn't be practiced on the street. If anyone's interested, I'll post what I tell students about beginning to learn this technique on the street. |
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Posted on: 2009/4/21 14:37
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TommyT-Bone | Re: Heel & Toe | ||
Chair-man of the bored
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Thanks Bill. Nice demo. Of course in autocross, I'll never need it but you never know when your gonna move up to PDE.
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Posted on: 2009/4/21 14:55
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BillH | Re: Heel & Toe | ||
The Stig Moderator
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Then, it's time to try a PDE, Tommy. I had the fun of doing a 360+ in a 911 at about 60mph on Saturday. The driver had a funny look on his face when we stopped spinning. |
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Posted on: 2009/4/21 14:59
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CentralCoaster | Re: Heel & Toe | ||
Senior Guru
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I've been putting off learning this. I really don't think its meant to be with the way the pedals are in the C4, or the size of my feet.
I'd rather learn it on the street for free than on the track where I'd be paying per minute and getting in other people's way. |
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Posted on: 2009/4/21 15:10
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TommyT-Bone | Re: Heel & Toe | ||
Chair-man of the bored
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How do you avoid doing 360's in a 911?
Go faster _______________ !!! |
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Posted on: 2009/4/21 15:13
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CentralCoaster | Re: Heel & Toe | ||
Senior Guru
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I do it on my bike all the time, and it allows me to shift without the clutch and even avoid using the brake to slow down. Maybe I should install my shifter in the footwell, and the clutch lever on the steering wheel, lol.
Would you C4 guys ever recommend modifying the pedals somehow to make this more doable? The gas pedal is just too far down and the brake too far up to reach everything. |
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Posted on: 2009/4/21 15:17
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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BillH | Re: Heel & Toe | ||
The Stig Moderator
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Hee Hee, putting the lever on the wheel will make it look just like my shifterkart. I only use the clutch to start out in 1st. Your bike, like the kart, has a dogring trans (my prefered trans) and makes this easy to do. |
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Posted on: 2009/4/21 15:40
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BrianCunningham | Re: Heel & Toe | ||
Senior Guru
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Good stuff
I've never been able to shift the Vette w/o the clutch It just doesn't want to come out of gear, and I really don't want to go buy a new ZF. |
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Posted on: 2009/4/21 15:45
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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BillH | Re: Heel & Toe | ||
The Stig Moderator
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What size shoes do you were? I'm 9 1/2. With sneekers, I can H&T easily, with driving shoes, the gap between the pedals makes it harder but still doable. I H&T all the time on the street even with moderate braking where the brake pedal is not down as far. You can certainly mod the pedals (make the gas pedal pad thicker) and get the aftermarket pads if you want. I personnally don't need them but do what feels good for you. If you want to check the height of the brake to the gas, pressed very hard, against my 92, measure it & let me know. H&T on the street, learning the technique without threshold braking: Do this ONLY where there is zero traffic anywhere near you. Read the SpringMountain link a few times. Try the foot positions, clutching and shifting in the driveway with the engine off. I do this with my heel on the floor but you may have to lift your foot up some. The only portion of your foot that should be on the brake pedal is the ball directly under your big toe. Most guys who have problems with pedal spacing have too much of their foot on the brake pedal. I'd suggest you try applying the brakes quite a few times like this without doing the blip. Find an empty road, and start the technique using the 6-5 downshift (this is the easiest one)running at 65mph or so. Do the same with the 5-4 downshift. Do this anytime you're on an empty road for a couple of weeks until it starts to feel natural, don't worry about hard braking. What you're looking for is to do this smoothly, if you can't feel the car slow down or speed up you have it right. If you're in a safe place and can watch the tach, it should not falloff from the blip when you let the clutch out. Once you work on this technique and feel comfortable, you can move to the 3-4 downshift. RevMatching: IMO, you should blip the gas on every downshift, everytime, even if your not hitting the brakes. It's easier on the driveline and makes good practice for H&T. Bike riders, like Kevin, know how smooth this makes things. |
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Posted on: 2009/4/21 16:08
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BillH | Re: Heel & Toe | ||
The Stig Moderator
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Nope, not a good idea. Mine is hard to pull out of gear w/o the clutch too. I wouldn't try it unless I lost the clutch. Dogrings (bikes & racecars), different deal. But even with a dogring, I've noticed that stabbing the clutch 1/2 way does reduce the wear on the dogs. |
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Posted on: 2009/4/21 16:15
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CentralCoaster | Re: Heel & Toe | ||
Senior Guru
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I believe a perfect clutchless shift won't wear anything out. Both shafts will be moving the same speed and obviously not transmitting any power while engaging. Using the clutch just throws more variables in there that can increase the shift time or allow the vehicle to slow down too much. When you blip the throttle and tap it into gear exactly when there's slack in the transmission, you would never know its shifting other than the changing engine noise.
The problem is that the perfect shift can't be done every time. And when you screw it up, you put enough wear on the system to make up for the last 50 shifts you did successfully. That's the only reason I use the clutch on the bike now. For awhile I was never using the clutch on upshifts or downshifts, but after it popping out of gear a few times, I decided to do it only on occasion. Stabbing the clutch only reduces wear on an imperfect shift. |
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Posted on: 2009/4/21 17:26
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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Mekanic | Re: Heel & Toe | ||
Registered Vendor
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I heel toe shift my vette all the time, especially on a dhownshift to 2nd for a turn, It would be easier with a thicker gas pedal pad I agree. On my LT4 there is a large gap between gas and brake heights.
I have a size 11 foot |
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Posted on: 2009/4/21 19:34
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BillH | Re: Heel & Toe | ||
The Stig Moderator
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Quote:
I understand what you're saying but, stabbing the clutch acts as a shock absorber for the dog rings. We had 2 identical cars, 2 drivers. The gearboxes are taken apart before every race and the dogrings and the dogs on the gears are inspected. The dogrings definately showed less wear on the car with the driver stabbing the clutch. Dog rings are maintainence items but they aren't cheap and that's why they're inspected every 1 1/2 hours. Worn dog rings are one of the main reasons a trans will pop out of gear. |
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Posted on: 2009/4/21 23:19
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BrianCunningham | Re: Heel & Toe | ||
Senior Guru
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Gary's got a clutchless transmission in his GT car, neat to hear going around the track
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Posted on: 2009/4/22 12:18
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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Matatk | Re: Heel & Toe | ||
Webmaster
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Neat poat - when you see the pros do it it makes it look easy. I have an auto, though, so no worries here. I'm not sure how much different the footwells are for the auto vs manual, but I think it's pretty tight.
Matthew |
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Posted on: 2009/4/23 1:17
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